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Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 2:11:54 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		If a Dom or Domme insist on something clearly wrong, should the sub hold his or her tongue? (For example claims the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor on Christmas.)I know there are different answers.

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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 6:06:53 AM   
MistressKiss


Posts: 295
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think this clearly depends on the submissive/slave's motives in speaking up. Does it truly matter that the Dom knows the accurate date of the bombing of Pearl Harbor (I realize this is just an example)? Could she be saying this as a part of a test or to promote a confrontation...to see if she will be challenged?

If the submissive HAS to always be right...I can see where this would be an issue and if this is the case...the person should question his or her motives in submitting. Is the submissive just looking for things to correct the Dominant about?

Nothing is more frustrated than a sub, any sub, who THINKS they know it all. One day, whether within the lifestyle or outside of it...the lesson will be learned.

I would answer that if it is important for safety or for the submissive's well-being, ask for permission to discuss it. I would not suggest the discussion take place mid-scene unless it is an immediate safety issue.

Who said it...I think it was Obi Wan's trainer in the Phantom Menace..."there's always a bigger fish"...likewise, there is always someone smarter than yourself.




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RE: Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 8:57:26 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		First of all, are you talking about the Dom and sub being in a relationship? That would make a difference in my mind. And in my case, since I only get involved with slaves, she can have a differing opinion, but will still do as I say. I always allow times for my slaves to express themselves, but what I say is always the way it will be.
Secondly, there is a difference between fact and opinion. The Japanese bombed Pear Harbor on Dec. 7th. That is a fact. If a Dom insists that the Germans bombed it on Christmas, I don't think that a sub would hold that person with much respect. I know I wouldn't.

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RE: Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 10:14:28 AM   
sweetieboop


Posts: 84
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think a sub should be able to voice his/her opinions and say what's on their mind. However, I don't believe they should do it in an aggresive and disrespectful manner. Just my perspective.

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RE: Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 11:51:51 AM   
seattleminx


Posts: 46
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu

If a Dom or Domme insist on something clearly wrong, should the sub hold his or her tongue? (For example claims the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor on Christmas.)


personally, I couldn't submit to anyone who wouldn't ask for my opinion or allow a differing POV. I'm not a robot. If asked, I will give an answer. If they don't like the answer, they can and should tell me why.

But if was something that was clearly wrong, I would like to think that my Domme would appreciate it if I could gently and subtely correct them. I wouldn't wish for them to make the same error in public, possibly causing them embarassment.

I would also like to think that I wouldn't submit to anyone who was so taken by their own sense of "domliness" that they became innuered to suggestions from their submissives.

But maybe that's just me.

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RE: Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 12:07:10 PM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, all humans have minds. The question seems more should a submissive or slave be allowed an opinion.

I remember this topic in many different forms. There are those who believe a person without the ability to *think* for themselves are nothing but an albatross. I know in my own situation, Master expects me to make his life easier. If I were unable to make rational decisions on the mundane things that are needed to make our home run smoothly, I would be more of burden, not a help.

Master is an intelligent man, and as such enjoys a good discussion. As I have said before, in our first meeting he told me nothing would get me punished more quickly than being a *yes* girl. Agreeing has nothing to do with my being a slave. Doing as is expected when I do not agree has more to do with it.

Honestly, I would never take someone serious as my dominant that feared my not agreeing with them. My mind and ability to rationally discern what I believe is a large part of *me*. And, honestly, in a live-in relationship especially, if one person has no desire to hear or no respect for the other's opinions, I believe the person who is ignored would eventually grow to resent the other. It seems a normal human reaction to me.

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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 1:41:46 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Kiss,

This example is horrible for that. For your answer shouldn't the Dom/me have picked something where they were not so clearly wrong? (Say a pro-flag burning amendment or something?)

I see your point, but it assumes the Dom/me is right. (Or at least may be right.) If the sub insists water boils at 210 degrees Fahrenheit (at sea level) [that's about 99 degrees C for metric people] or insists the sun rises in the North, you'd have a point.

To use Qui-gon-jin's example (sorry if I misspelled Qui-gon-jin's name) a fish cannot get bigger by being smaller.

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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 3:13:15 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think that it actually is more than just the date Kiss. If the Dom is convinced that it was the Germans not the Japanese that bombed Pearl Harbor, I don't think a sub could really respect the intelligence of the Dom. And I think that a sub/ slave needs to feel that the Dom is smarter than the sub/slave. Whether it is true or not.

(in reply to MistressKiss)
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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/22/2004 3:51:43 PM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline
quote:

And I think that a sub/ slave needs to feel that the Dom is smarter than the sub/slave.


That depends on your definition of *smarter* Sir. I know my IQ is higher than Master's and his is in the genius range. I know I have more practical experience in LT relationships, raising a child, and many other things. It doesn't bother him, it's just part of me.

I see it more that a submissive or slave has to be willing to know that they can trust the dominant to give them the correct answers and to understand that if they are incorrect and it is pointed out, it is not calling them stupid, or even doubting them in their
answers, it is more simply helping them to grow as they help us. I prefer to know I can rely on his honesty, feel safe in his care, and know he is a good enough man to know he isn't always right. Just as he expects me to understand I am not always right either, and that it is not my job to *agree* but to *listen*.

BTW, there are many topics that Master kills me in. Sports, geography, history to name a few. But, if he *needed* to correct in the amount of flour to use in the bread machine and didn't know or look at the directions, it would make his *being right* just talk. And a dominant that *needs* to be right is no better then a submissive or slave that *needs* to be right. Both are the kind of people that I eventually start to ignore.

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Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to Estring)
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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/23/2004 10:51:47 PM   
Spectre22


Posts: 2
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		A Dominant should know who they are. That will include the ability to be wrong. If someone believes they are right all the time, that is not a person that I would want in my life. Making mistakes is human. Having a sub that can correct that mistake without being disrepectful about it is priceless.

If a Dominant insists they are right even with faced with evidence to the contrary then they are not someone that will grow or allow a sub to grow. If we can't be a better person tomorrow than we are today, why bother trying?

Spectre

(in reply to EStrict)
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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/24/2004 5:15:47 AM   
inyouagain


Posts: 418
Joined: 1/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EStrict
And a dominant that *needs* to be right is no better then a submissive or slave that *needs* to be right.

I agree with Estrict's comment, as it is on target in thought, but incomplete in scope. A Switch who *needs* to be right is no better than either of the above who *need* to be right either.

quote:

Shgould a sub/slave have a mind?


I recall having seen a formula somewhere:

A sub has ¼ of a mind, a Switch has ½ of a mind, and a Dominant often loses their mind.

Monkey Wrench: Under widely supported purviews in many other threads, the subject of 'ONE' is discussed, and in the Yin-Yang concept both Dominant & sub become 'ONE' together.

This infers that if each has ½ a mind, the two halves combined in perfect nirvana will constitute a whole 'ONE' (½ + ½ = 1).

So what happens if either has more than ½ a mind?

Inyouagain

(in reply to EStrict)
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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/24/2004 6:24:31 AM   
Arykus


Posts: 4
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Absolutely she should speak up - without pause or reservation. In the same way that it is appropriate for a submissive to straighten her Master's tie before he leaves the home, so should she offer what knowledge she has that he may not.

Everything hers is to be given to him - including, especially, her intelligence.

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/24/2004 9:44:31 AM   
ZenMaster


Posts: 52
Joined: 1/30/2004
Status: offline 		We all have a mind. Use it.

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RE: Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/24/2004 1:46:18 PM   
ShadowHwk


Posts: 158
Joined: 1/5/2004
From: New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu

If a Dom or Domme insist on something clearly wrong, should the sub hold his or her tongue? (For example claims the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor on Christmas.)I know there are different answers.


To me it means that before you can even think about taking on the responsibility required of a Master/Mistress you must first have your own life firmly under control; financially, emotionally, and spiritually. It means not starting a new relationship until you are ethically and emotionally able to do so. You cannot possibly control another when your life is in turmoil or flux. How can you expect another to respect and serve you when you don’t respect yourself?

Recently a friend of mine had a “Master” show up for his first meeting with her – wanting to move in because he was about to be evicted. What’s wrong with this picture?

Terry

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/27/2004 10:05:32 AM   
sarbonn


Posts: 203
Joined: 3/23/2004
Status: offline 		Almost always, when I serve a woman, I bring my mind into the mix so she can use it. I'm a very intelligent individual; I'm not going to hide that or suddenly go all modest about it. This is a major part of the reason I'm one of the few guys that searches for an intelligent woman rather than the hot Barbie babe supermodel. I like the idea that the woman who owns me is intelligent enough to put me in my place, be able to reason with why I might not be all knowing, or just strong enough to be able to put what I have to say into a perspective that still manages to give her the ability to use it to her advantage. Having said this, I will add that rarely in the past have I found the need to ever contradict a mistress who owned me because there was enough in front of us beforehand to where I would respect what she had to say in the first place. There's a lot of power behind truly understanding your submissive. One time, my last owner decided my religion for me based on how she felt that the one she chose was more along the lines of my philosophy of life. Now, that's a woman that understands her submissive.

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RE: Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 3/28/2004 7:29:07 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sarbonn

... I bring my mind into the mix so she can use it.




How very well said.

I've found that my kink does not delve into the degradation realm (although some forms of humiliation I do enjoy). The reason I don't really enjoy degradation is because it conflicts with my philos. The bottom line is that I don't own, play with or care about "pieces of shit." I value what a submissive brings to the mix.

I also value a submissive whose perspective of what they bring to the mix is the understanding that the dominant's choices are the final choices. I infer from your statement "...so she can use it" that you understand this dynamic.

Very well said, indeed.

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 3/28/2004 10:29:51 AM >

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“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 4/8/2004 11:57:08 PM   
daddydiamond


Posts: 2
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		Yes I do feel that a sub/slave should have a mind. If there's something that my sub feels is wrong, then yes I would like to know, but she should ask permission to speak freely. Because I'am a Domme that dosen't make everything I do right, or right for my sub. To have a realtionship that will last both D/s should both be happy and content. So by all means if Daddy Diamond's lil one has something to say, I will listen. I won't say that I will agree all the time, but I do want to know how she feels.

DaddyDiamond

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RE: Shgould a sub/slave have a mind? - 4/15/2004 4:16:41 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu

If a Dom or Domme insist on something clearly wrong, should the sub hold his or her tongue? (For example claims the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor on Christmas.)I know there are different answers.


As far as my relationship goes I am told to speak up when things are said that don't exactly hold water.
However, for me it depends on where we are. I am not going to embarrass him in front of a group of people either. No matter what happens. Sure, after it's all said and done with, I will voice my opinion.
If in private, I voice it all of the time.

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 4/15/2004 7:44:04 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		I am going to agree with ZenMaster on this one. However, I am also going to say this; It depends on the situation and how the information is presented. That's all. If I present incorrect information and someone corrects me, be it a sub, a friend, a stranger...and they do it in a respectful way. No problem, I'm corrected, and I appreciate the knowledge. If someone comes off in a disrespectful manner I will let them know right now that their presentation is not acceptable nor appreciated. Respect isn't always about having the correct information, but it is always about having the correct attitude and demonstrating respect for ourselves and others.

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RE: Should a sub/slave have a mind? - 4/18/2004 11:31:04 AM   
SternMistress


Posts: 31
Joined: 4/3/2004
Status: offline 		A true dominant wouldn't willingly make a spectacle of themselves by opening their mouth without putting the brain into gear.
Being dominant isn't about being right all the time, that's not dominance, it's arrogance, a 'good' dominant has no need of arrogance.
Arrogance is for those who don't know themselves and is often coupled with low self esteem.
Insisting on being right, even when your wrong is called making a dumbass out of yourself, how could any sub have respect for a dumbass?

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
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