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Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 2:03:40 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have found myself thinking a lot lately about how "submissive" I am, what I want in my next relationship, and where my desire to "submit" stems from. It is still there, but I suppose reading how people view their submissiveness, their relationship to their dominant, etc, it has me doubly questioning my own submissiveness as it is defined by most people that hang out around here.

Sooooo... where have these thoughts led? Where am I taking this thread (hopefully)?

In the animal world there are betas and alphas, especially in species that form social groups. The classic example is from dog or wolf kind, and packs.... Alpha males and beta males, alpha females and beta females. It just got me to thinking about where my real desires are, and how I want to relate to the next partner, and I think I am more of an alpha sort of female than a beta sort of female, but I just want an alpha male to follow. I don't feel particularly submissive anymore. I kinda like being in charge in my working life. I love it when I have people follow me, but I don't want a man I am involved with to follow me, I want him to be in control.

I know I am not a domme, I have no desire to top anyone, for example... it is just that I don't think I am submissive until someone I feel is my idea of what a man should be comes along...

Anyways, these ideas are just formulating in my noggin. I know many people won't identify with what I have posted, but I was wondering if there are some that do, especially submissive sorts that have had similar thoughts about themselves....What do you all think? (BTW: if you think these thoughts are a buncha nonsense, I welcome that too, I am not particularly tied to the entire idea anyways... just some random thoughts of late)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 2:12:37 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		i think 'horses' when i think about stuff like that   and im pretty sure id be the alpha mare in the herd, submissive only to the stallion and only because he was a good protector, a good leader and a good decision maker.

and yet i do identify with being a submissive as part of who i am.  im not sure that any of us are all that different to how you describe youreself to be honest. 

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 2:41:43 PM   
yellowroses


Posts: 167
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline 		I agree. I see myself being submissive with my partner. I think that I am deeply submissive orientated as well.. I like to make others happy however I am not submissive in every part of my life. In fact, I was not submissive in my first marriage. I wanted to be but he was an alcoholic and that just wasn't possible. For 18 years I was in charge of most everything. I made all the decisions about everything. Yet I still considered myself a submissive. To survive I had to be an independent, strong decision making person. Survival caused me to be that way. Now I am quite content deferring major decisions to him. We discuss everything and he decides what we should do with my input. When my input differs from his...it is so noted. When I was working outside the home I was happy being sort of alpha and in day to day life when he is not home decisions or choices have to be made and I make them just fine. I guess I don't really agree to labels like "submissive" or Dominant" because I know that I am not 100% either all the time.

GREAT topic by the way!

kim

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 3:13:19 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		All I say is that I'm submissive to one. I have the potential to submit to others, I'm easy to push around. But I know this about myself and avoid it by using technology. I let the answering machine screen the phone calls and don't call back. I send emails saying no.

Horsewise, someone has to be lead mare. If someone else knows more in the situation, I'm fine following them. If they don't, I will take the lead.


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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 3:28:26 PM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Humans are not really any different than herding or pack animals. In every species there are leaders, the odd beta, the outsiders (those who become nomadic or who are not accepted by the pack/herd and the worker/breeders. The largest majority in any pack/herd are the worker/breeders... those who just quietly get on with things under the rule of the alpha. In my opinion, most of society are the equivalent of pack/herd worker breeders. Every so often we get someone who seems to have the natural ability to lead. Put any random group together and someone will rise to lead it and in that same group the majority will just happily be led and a small minority will constantly worry about being liked, have the lowest confidence levels and will try to remain invisible... those are the betas. I dont' think the majority of submissives are beta types.

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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 3:32:20 PM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline 		If I'm in a relationship, I don't want to be the Alpha or the beta, I want to be the ONLY!

_____________________________

<-- Easily amused.
<-- Easily impressed.

Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!


(in reply to allthatjaz)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 3:36:03 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		I think you've raised a fair question, and I disagree with many of the associations people generally levy towards submissives with a giant brush. We're as different as a million shades of blue and there are too many things that influence our approach and desire to yield. I have never believed there's a one-size fits all philosophy and remain staunchly committed to living my truth rather than adhering to preconceived notions on what constitutes submission or slavery for that matter.

I utilized an analogy earlier in my conversation with lally that referenced the mustang. If I were to be honest I am as indifferent as that animal and hard to catch. I don't stand around waiting for someone to rope me. On the other hand I'm tenacious, driven, and delight on challenges that test and sharpen my mettle. Very much like the lioness I make things happen. If I want something I go after it. And yet I have the capacity to yield deeply and follow one person with great assurance that's founded on many principles including his competence, character, and trustworthiness to name a few.

Slavery doesn't lessen or weaken my attributes when I'm engaging in an exchange. If anything they allow furtherance, growth, and significant stretching of my person. My appetite for success sees the bar as an opportunity worth conquering rather than one that threatens to topple me by its presence. I don't accept defeat easily.

In terms of the two aspects you've noted, one could suggest I'm definitely alpha oriented. I'll take the lead whenever I can. I'm not a follower or in need of acceptance or validation to the degree where I'd compromise myself inappropriately. However, when it comes to my owner I am his beta neatly clothed in alpha skin. I can never change who I am, but what alters is how I display those behaviors in our relationship.

And don't believe one is better than the other. Both sides have merits and something to teach in my opinion. I intentionally converse with women who's makeup is diametrically opposed to my own for very good reasons. Suffice to say I learn a lot. There are situations that are simple to them that prove challenging for me due to my internal wiring. However, the reverse is true and she gains a perspective that is opposite of her own. I've implement quite a few in my personal relationships and have blossomed exponentially because of them.

One finally note about the alpha. It is my sincerest belief that she is appealing in theory to many but difficult to own and master for most. Her allure is intoxicating for those with an insatiable need for power or the taking of the other party's at their hands. Her wily ways and enigmatic demeanor are significantly heightened if she can emphasize the feminine and celebrate her sexuality in the process. It's an addicting combination but an idealistic one for discriminating persons. Much like him she must choose a gentleman that complements her countenance.

~porcelaine


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(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 3:56:14 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		the interesting thing about horses is that they are more likely to choose the quietly confident member as their alpha rather than the bully.  bullies tend to get rebuffed and resented, kicked out at and retaliated against.  its the quietly confident ones that walk calmly through the herd and help themselves to the water trough and everyone politely steps aside.

if you relate that to humans its the same.  no one is going to turn to the loud hysteric for support, theyll go to the calmly confident person who gets things done quietly but effectively.  in the end its about survival.  when push comes to shove and a pack of wolves hone in on the herd its going to be the level headed alphas rather than the hysterical hysterics that lead the herd to safety.

subs tend to migrate toward a Dominant who is level headed, calmly confident and generally a good stratagist, its kinda natural therefore that we would, if we were horses, be the stallions alpha mare from choice.  we choose to be up close and personal to the Alpha male of our species and that takes a certain amount of hutspa frankly

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 4:05:03 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		I think I'm a beta. I don't like being in charge, it makes me feel like I'm put on the spot, but when I can work behind the scenes, organize, and put all the pieces into place while letting someone else be the spokesperson or "leader" I'm at my best.

I also tend to be adaptable and react to situations as they come up rather than trying to steer a course, and the one really cool thing about being such a pro beta is when I start to like someone, I encourage them to be in an "alpha" role and get to be all supportive whereas if I don't like someone it's hard for them to be the alpha because I am able to consistently undermine their authority.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 4:51:26 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

One finally note about the alpha. It is my sincerest belief that she is appealing in theory to many but difficult to own and master for most. Her allure is intoxicating for those with an insatiable need for power or the taking of the other party's at their hands. Her wily ways and enigmatic demeanor are significantly heightened if she can emphasize the feminine and celebrate her sexuality in the process. It's an addicting combination but an idealistic one for discriminating persons. Much like him she must choose a gentleman that complements her countenance.


I just wanted to say, it is rare to read something so well worded, and this was actually almost prose-like.....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 4:55:48 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

submissive only to the stallion and only because he was a good protector, a good leader and a good decision maker.


I identify with wolves because I know more about them, and their hierarchy is more variable than that...and the hierarchy can change too, although to be honest, I am not familiar with horses at all.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 4:58:27 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

If I'm in a relationship, I don't want to be the Alpha or the beta, I want to be the ONLY!


Wolves are serial monogamists , which was another reason why I liked the analogy

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DarlingSavage)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 5:00:08 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Put any random group together and someone will rise to lead it and in that same group the majority will just happily be led and a small minority will constantly worry about being liked, have the lowest confidence levels and will try to remain invisible... those are the betas. I dont' think the majority of submissives are beta types.


This is why I wondered if I am actually an "alpha" female.... people usually look to me for answers, guidance, etc... I am often in the leadership position and will speak my mind when I feel it is necessary

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to allthatjaz)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 5:01:54 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I think I'm a beta. I don't like being in charge, it makes me feel like I'm put on the spot, but when I can work behind the scenes, organize, and put all the pieces into place while letting someone else be the spokesperson or "leader" I'm at my best.

I also tend to be adaptable and react to situations as they come up rather than trying to steer a course, and the one really cool thing about being such a pro beta is when I start to like someone, I encourage them to be in an "alpha" role and get to be all supportive whereas if I don't like someone it's hard for them to be the alpha because I am able to consistently undermine their authority.


This may not be the "alpha" exactly, but you are someone who is well aware of the power you have, so I would not exactly call you a "beta" either

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 6:16:28 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		FR

What I'm good at and what I'm comfortable as are two different things. I am good at taking the lead but I really hate it and feel rather unhappy inside when in that role. Even though others see me as excelling, on the inside I'm doing anything but excelling. I'm most comfortable following but if whomever is leading isn't good at that I will step up. So pretty much I follow comfortably until the leadership fails, step up and fix it then go back to following.

No clue what that 'makes' me. All I know for sure is that in 11 years my Owner has never stumbled and I've never had to change my stride, that makes me content beyond measure.

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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 6:21:15 PM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

If I'm in a relationship, I don't want to be the Alpha or the beta, I want to be the ONLY!


Wolves are serial monogamists , which was another reason why I liked the analogy


I like wolves, they are cool! 







Attachment (1)

_____________________________

<-- Easily amused.
<-- Easily impressed.

Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!


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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 6:22:16 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline 		In my experience, the lone wolf type dominants tend to end up with lone wolf type submissives.  That would fit with the wolfpack analogy, as that sometimes happens in the wild.

< Message edited by Apocalypso -- 7/16/2010 6:24:49 PM >

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 6:44:37 PM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline 		RAWR!

_____________________________

<-- Easily amused.
<-- Easily impressed.

Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!


(in reply to Apocalypso)
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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 6:47:28 PM   
LPslittleclip


Posts: 1163
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline 		i would identify myself as a beta sub. i will take charge if need be but i prefer to be in a supportive role just getting things done. keeping things going and others happy.

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proud to serve the awsome
LadyPact

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RE: Alphas and Betas and D/s relationships - 7/16/2010 7:17:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LPslittleclip

i would identify myself as a beta sub. i will take charge if need be but i prefer to be in a supportive role just getting things done. keeping things going and others happy.


For there to be leaders there must be followers. Followers make the leaders look good, especially the ones that follow with a cheerful giving heart

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LPslittleclip)
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