RE: Master is Servant (Full Version)

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LadyConstanze -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 1:58:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Art is hard work as well. We might say physical labour( activities ) is not work. You might play football and say its not work. But for the pro's sport is work. So how we define work is dependent on the circumstance.
Now release yourself from language and see the interactions.
Da Vinci is an artist who was an apprentice first at had to slave his ass of to become a master.
But here people just call themselves lord or master or whatever because they are dominant.
Dominants to me are the bullies we had in school like a sadist. There is nothing they have really mastered but their own selfish needs.
Do you think van Gogh cut of his ear for fun?
When I say work your ass off do you think I am talkin of a job?


And all too often the word art and artist is used if people are absolutely untalented and just too lazy to work. I love art, but the term is rather inflated.

I don't know if you are talking of a job, because it seems you argue for the sake of arguing. You aren't by chance a self-appointed artist?





laurell3 -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 2:02:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

This thread is posted for all to delve in the D/s dynamics

In a way I believe that the master or mistress actually serves the slave.
Take for instance a painslut. Who is doing all the work?
Exactly the D works for the slaves pleasure...
I have more to say about this but I first would like to see some reactions.



FR

This thought is not so controversial or shocking for those that live in reality and not fantasy. It is two sides of the same coin. We both serve the relationship. It is truly an exchange, not a dictatorship, as his ability to lead is predicated on my willingness to follow. I don't see that as service, however, as he always has the option to refuse, whereas, I do not wish to have that option.




MrBukani -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 2:08:07 PM)

no . no and no
but even kids can make art.
If its so hard to understand what I am saying then just forget about it.




Zevar -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 3:07:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

This thread is posted for all to delve in the D/s dynamics

In a way I believe that the master or mistress actually serves the slave.
Take for instance a painslut. Who is doing all the work?
Exactly the D works for the slaves pleasure...
I have more to say about this but I first would like to see some reactions.


Greetings MrBukani:

Realistically speaking the definition of pleasure is subjectively interrupted. From the perspective of mastering or leadership I fail to see how a master or leader does all of the work. When I commit to leadership or mastering another I certainly do not do so without having given sincere contemplation to the subject. There is in all healthy relating a joint effort of giving and receiving. To view my efforts of what I naturally offer as a gentleman master and leader is far from absolute hard work and sweat equity.

Professionally speaking I do not do all of the work in any position of leadership that I commit to accomplish. Delegation plays a prominent role yet it is a team effort to reach each jointly defined goal. Such is the same in a personal relationship. There may be roles within all relating yet nonetheless the joint effort is not extractable. If so how could any relationship, be it a personal relationship or work relationship, thrive without a joint effort?

Pleasure or hedonism as the goal is not my primary goal. Instead the primary goal in my relating is an opportunity to express what I do naturally. Leadership does come with responsibility and accountability. Nonetheless I am of the thought that since leadership is a natural expression of my manhood then it cannot be deemed as drudgery or mere work. For myself leadership or mastery in and of itself is a form of immeasurable satisfaction regardless of how it is expressed from myself to another. Some forms of work are worth every moment of my asserted effort.




MarcEsadrian -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 3:19:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Marc
I was just looking if some people understand my point of view.

Trust I understand it. I just find it too general and conflated for intellectual use, however.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Like a couple people said both serve the relationship. That was the kinda response i was really aiming for. Again I did not say master is slave. I am just delving the mind for more intricate patterns that co exist. We all serve a purpose. And to look at it from my point of view brings more respect to the sub IMO.

Sub? The title of your OP and the terms within use "Master", "Mistress" and "slave". The logical counter component to Master is slave. Master and slave might as well mean dom and sub, or husband and wife to you, but they don't to me. Speaking of the symbiosis between both is not the same as saying a Master is a servant to a slave. If you're speaking of topping and bottoming, I'd be more inclined to agree, but with M/s, nay.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
5 years ago most people wanted bdsm as an extra and now most people want it 24/7.

Who is "most people"? What demographic are you talking about? What is the cited significance of five years? Are we talking about "BDSM" or M/s? Specificity is important.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Do you really think I care if you get my drift or not?

What I care about is counteracting misinformation or misleading truisms spoken matter-of-factly. The broad brush thoughts you expressed initially in the OP were faulty and poorly phrased. That's my drift.




gungadin09 -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 3:40:59 PM)

Hello, Mr. Bukani! i can see why You would see the M/s dynamic as being the Master servicing the needs of the slave. It could look that way. But i agree with the majority of commenters here who say that it's really a symbiotic relationship. They are both servicing the other's needs, and they are both working.

Both Master and slave have needs that they bring to the relationship. The Master needs to inflict pain, and the sub needs to receive it. They are both giving pleasure in this dynamic, and both receiving it. So far, so good.

They are also both working. The Master does more physical work in tying knots, cracking the whip, applying the crop, whatever. As You said, it's something that You derive pleasure from, but it's also work. But the slave is working too. She works to mold her behavior to what her Master wants. She works to endure the whip and the crop. In the same way, she derives pleasure from these things, but she is also working to endure them. Neither one of them is experiencing pure pleasure, or giving pure service. They are both giving and taking. In the end, tying all those knots might be a pain in the ass, but the pleasure a Master receives from watching the slave take pain compensates him for His labor. Likewise, getting whipped might be (literally!) a pain in the ass for a slave, but the gratification she receives compensates her for her trouble.

i believe the M/s relationship is like a job. While one person may be in charge, the relationship is still a give and take. Payment received for services rendered.

pam






marie2 -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 3:53:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

When a man works his ass of 10 hours a day and the woman is at home doing chores I would know for sure wich one I would prefer.



quote:


The mineworker works his ass off and dies younger then the woman at home.
Why does the man die earlier then the woman. Cause HE WORKS HIMSELF TO DEATH.
So in facto he is serving his wife.




Which one would you prefer? They both work their asses off.

Why do you see "partners" as being in competition with one another, or one partner as being more integral than the other?

Each partner has their own supportive part to uphold in the success of the relationship, no matter a traditional relationship or one of ds/ms or everything in between.










jthaddeus -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 4:26:05 PM)

Hello,

This thread seems to be rather well timed for me, I just finished a journal entry on comparing the roles of Uke and Nage in Aikido to Doms and Subs, or Tops and Bottoms, trying to examine who is really in control, who is doing the teaching, and where the center of attention is. One thing I had not considered was who was "doing the work". In the military, there's a saying amongst NCO's, that's become almost a trope "Don't call me Sir, I work for a living!" Where the enlisted soldier tries to imply that he does more work than the Officer. In any normal metric, he might. He's the one doing the dishes, servicing the aircraft, shooting people, and trying to disarm IEDs, depending on his MOS. But what of the Officer? The officer is faced with a number of much greater questions. He must decide what to do and how and when. He must decide how to best lead his men. He must understand the nature of people, and be able to work with it to comfort and sustain his soldiers, through strong leadership and rigid discipline. Another common, if aging saying of the enlisted was coined by Lord Alfred Tennyson in "The Charge of the Light Brigade", "Theirs is not to reason why, theirs is just to do or die."

To compare these two is silly. They are different things, both demanding, both of which one can do well, or do poorly, and both of which require great sacrifice, great courage, and great character. Neither is effective, or even complete without the other, and as others have stated, the art is in the interaction betwixt them.

The question I found more interesting was one the OP twigged on to for just a second, asking who is serving who? Who is the teacher and who is the student? Who initiates, and who is in control?

I find the use of safewords to be really interesting. In the "textbook" usage of safewords, it is the sub or slave who really holds the most totalitarian control over a situation. I've known Masters, however, who attach consequence to safeword usage. "you use a safeword, that's fine, that's your right. But then scenes over, no second chance, and no more play for a month" or in one case a far more severe "The safeword is yours to use, but the first time you use it, you have removed yourself from my power, so our relationship is over, and you go home" Years into a relationship, well, the power is still in the "s"'s hands to some degree, but it is the Master or Dom who has really established the control and the bounds of the environment.

Now, I don't think the above is necessary, practical, or even advantageous for any but a few very specific situations. It would have little effect for play dates and scenes which will be over at the end of the night anyway, and it would be impractical for a dedicated couple who may have a similar rule in place under normal circumstances to use it in a situation where the "s"'s life is dependent on clear and immediate feedback, but it served as a great tool for me to reexamine the nature of a Power Exchange relationship.

I have a number of other similar observations, which I believe DO relate to this post, but I've already posted them to a journal entry, which I'd like to paste in here, but I'm not sure if that's proper netiquette, so if someone could advise me, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

- j.




gungadin09 -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 8:02:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

When a man works his ass of 10 hours a day and the woman is at home doing chores I would know for sure wich one I would prefer.



If that's what You'd prefer, i don't see what's stopping You. Did You say You used to be a switch? That You used to worship women? Well, if You wanted to go back to that, and then You be the one to stay at home doing chores and have Her be the breadwinner, You certainly could. i don't see why not. If, on the other hand, You would rather be the Master, then You're clearly getting something from that dynamic that You would not get if it were the other way 'round. You're each getting something. That's symbiosis.

i don't believe that most people hate their jobs, and wish that they could do something else. If that is Your situation, then You can always quit, and do something else. Nothing's stopping You, is it? No one is telling You that You have to slave Your life away doing a job You hate, in order to gain material possessions. It seems to me that You have a choice.

Personally, i would rather be the one with a profession instead of the one doing housework all day long. A job can be stressful and taxing physically and mentally, but boredom is taxing emotionally, and not having a real life lowers a person's self esteem.

pam




MrBukani -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 10:23:45 PM)

I see some people try to tell me what a master really is lol
or what a slave is
or what a bottom is
or what a sub is
If you really think this discussion is about the silly little titles you totally miss the point or you are just trying to undermine the truth about it.
Like the term vanilla its just a stupid lame ass term made up by some gay master/top/lord/god hahahahha.

Geezus some of you really have missed the boat.

this reply was not ment for gungadin or jthaddeus

to jthaddeus sure post it if you want I am not somebody who is opposed to take a thread to another level or subject. Like some people always start cryin about goin off topic.
To warn some people this is off course not my first time on a forum so really nobody has to tell me how this shit works.
If I want to go off topic in my own thread I will.
If I think something off topic will add to the discussion I will add it.
So now you know my rules.

And to hopelessly invo: I looked the word hubris up and it means arrogance and being out of touch with reality that was really funny cos in that same post YOU say that WE ALL know what I am doing and WE wont fall for it.
How about that for pure arrogance and being totally out of touch with reality. hahaha
You dig a hole for yourself in the same post, it should show to not use fancy words cos they dont mean shit if you dont know what you are talkin about. Seriously it just jibberish. And again I am still laughing. 




MrBukani -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 10:49:37 PM)

to pam: so you say most people love their jobs?
look when we grow up we all wanna be rich and nobody wants to end up in the milkfactory but some of us do we adapt and say we like our job but we would all rather have our dreamjob.
I am living my dream so dont worry i work 6 months and take 6 months off a year.




Zevar -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 10:49:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I see some people try to tell me what a master really is lol
or what a slave is
or what a bottom is
or what a sub is
If you really think this discussion is about the silly little titles you totally miss the point or you are just trying to undermine the truth about it.
Like the term vanilla its just a stupid lame ass term made up by some gay master/top/lord/god hahahahha.

Geezus some of you really have missed the boat.

this reply was not ment for gungadin or jthaddeus

to jthaddeus sure post it if you want I am not somebody who is opposed to take a thread to another level or subject. Like some people always start cryin abour goin off topic.
To warn some people this is off course not my first time on a forum so really nobody has to tell me how this shit works.
If I want to go off topic in my own thread I will.
If I think something off topic will add to the discussion I will add it.
So now you know my rules.




Greetings Mr. Bukani:

Firstly, in all seriousness, why did begin this thread if you did not truly want replies from others?

Secondly, do you realize that at times some of the answers we get are what we need to consider AND will not always serve in some guise of pleasure?

Thirdly,
are you minimizing gay men when you made your comment as follows:

quote:

“ Like the term vanilla its just a stupid lame ass term made up by some gay master/top/lord/god hahahahha.”


Now before you think I am being rude or otherwise insincere, I am asking you to understand that I am NOT posting this to attack you OR judge you! I am though seriously asking you to consider these 3 points I presented. If you seriously choose to further a discussion regarding them, then by all means, do know that I will consider debating the content of your reply.

However if you choose to simply rely on insults in your reply as a method of response to this posting then know upfront that I will more than likely choose to NOT engage in such conversing with you nor anyone. I believe the subject you presented in your original posting does deserve discussion AND of course in doing so one can gain a perspective that perhaps was unclear prior to being open-minded enough to at least consider another viewpoint.

Who knows maybe something of value will result in a discussion. I know I learn much when I am open-minded. It is simply a matter of choice. Thanks for listening.




MrBukani -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 10:54:01 PM)

Sorry Zevar it was not really ment for you.
Your posts our sound and thoughtfull
No I am really pro gay I just hate the term vanilla there is nothing vanilla about a bricklayer comin home crackin a beer and beating his wife.




IronBear -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 11:12:40 PM)

I'm really interested in the use of the word WORK. I'm the first to admit I dislike work, as according to my personal  definition work is what you do and someone pays you money or there is no way you would do it. Ergo when you do something, even that which requires hard labour (not work), which you enjoy and would probably do for nothing it is not work.

Now if I am swinging a flogger, a cane or crop, it may raise a sweat and even be strenuous, it certainly is not work if I enjoy it which I do. It is not work when I am indulging in needle play when when it requires meticulous attention.

It is not work when I strive to my utmost to do my best for the health of a relationship and to make my partner/wife happy. That is a labour of love. yet spending hours designing and completing an illuminated and calligraphied document for some one who I have no personal feelings for is both something I enjoy but is also work because it is not something I would do for nothing. (I have many other manuscripts I'd rather be completing for myself or Lodge which is also a labour of love). It is reasonable and accurate to say I have rarely worked (according to my definition) in my life and even then for a small amount of time and charged through the noise for it. I include my years in combat zones here too for even in retrospect I would have done that time for an endless supply of smokes and ammo because I believed and still believe in what I did. It was never work or about money. Indeed even making money as any wealthy person will tell you, is not necessarily work but about mindsets. I have wealthy friends who enjoy what they do to create wealth and thus do not work....Again I state.. Work is not always the same as labour.

Therefore I deny the concept that a Dominant works to please a submissive..

Oi!!! You can lay off the bricklayer cracks too. Many friends are hard working Aussie Brickies who do not crack open a beer and beat their wives. They are good caring blokes and family men... I suggest you get your arse here to Aussie and spend 6 months labouring for them before you made such scandalous comments




Zevar -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 11:15:39 PM)

Greetings MrBukani:

A bit of input for you: Here on CM it is my understanding that everyone abides by TOS rules AND of course the discretion and input of the Moderators. It is sort of like the motto: Respect others and they will Respect you, well most of them will.

quote:


To warn some people this is off course not my first time on a forum so really nobody has to tell me how this shit works.
If I want to go off topic in my own thread I will.
If I think something off topic will add to the discussion I will add it.
So now you know my rules.


I must admit though I did not follow the “crakin a beer and beating the wife analogy.”

quote:

No I am really pro gay I just hate the term vanilla there is nothing vanilla about a bricklayer comin home crackin a beer and beating his wife.


Nonetheless, take care!




MrBukani -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 11:25:05 PM)

to ironbear the bricklayer is just an example i could have said banker milkman or anything.
I do constructionwork myself also so its not about that.
But I think you knew that it was just an illustration to the term vanilla wich is IMO downright insulting to people who dont have anything to do with bdsm.
Go stand inbetween a group of hooligans and call them vanilla and see where it leads lol.




MrBukani -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 11:29:22 PM)

work and labour is sort of a synonym dont you think?
Or dont you work up a swet sometimes and love it?




IronBear -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 11:34:05 PM)

You are of course asking this of yourself are you not.. 'twill be interesting as to how you respond to yourself... Should make for a good psychological question.. 




VideoAdminRho -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 11:46:31 PM)

quote:

to jthaddeus sure post it if you want I am not somebody who is opposed to take a thread to another level or subject. Like some people always start cryin about goin off topic.
To warn some people this is off course not my first time on a forum so really nobody has to tell me how this shit works.
If I want to go off topic in my own thread I will.
If I think something off topic will add to the discussion I will add it.
So now you know my rules.

Ahem. It is not your rules that are enforced on this site.
Please stay on topic, folks. If another avenue of discussion is needed or desired, please start a separate thread. Thanks.




MrBukani -> RE: Master is Servant (7/17/2010 11:46:37 PM)

I do that before I start a thread or post a reply.
And no labour and work to is the same in this matter as I stated before dont get caught up in words but interactions.
Labour is just a fancy word for work ,not all work is paid for.
Let me say my work is a labour of love.




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