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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 4:24:33 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you like me feel a purpose and see order from chaos then this is enough for me to believe in God. If you don’t like the word God then perhaps Source…or any word you would like to describe the guiding creative force.

Butch

I prefer the word evolution.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 4:45:48 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you like me feel a purpose and see order from chaos then this is enough for me to believe in God. If you don’t like the word God then perhaps Source…or any word you would like to describe the guiding creative force.

Butch

I prefer the word evolution.

quote:

evolution

It is a good word and my personal definition of religion does not exclude the possibility of intelligent direction through evolution.

I don't understand people who think because 2 plus 2 does equal 4 and life has evolved over time that these facts somehow prove God cannot exist.

I also can't understand people who deny the very miracle of evolution because their religion does not expressly describe it. Life is a miracle in itself and the fact that it can change into all shapes, colors, and sizes should strengthen their religion rather than be a threat to it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/18/2010 4:47:02 PM >

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 5:37:08 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Julia, hey,......I think I like this religion; "action through inaction". ( "Taoism, the Lazy Man's Religion!")No need to go to church every week, do you guys at least have any type of meetings or conventions or anything like that? You know, a bunch of Taoists rent hotels in differant cities for a "convention", wear funny hats and chase whores up and down the hallways,... things like that?
I'd be a great Taoist! "Hey! You can't chase whores up and down the hallways!"
"Sure I can, I'm a Taoist! It's part of our "Religion" "You know, the "Mother Earth thing!"
"Oh, OK, sorry, just try not to disturb the other guests."
Yup, Julia and Popeye,...Taoists!

I would like to see you meditate for at least 20 minutes a day and then call me lazy... whatever dude.... I could say that organized church religion is for the mentally lazy, but I don't believe that is necessarily true....

Hey, there's my fellow Taoist! Meditate for twenty minutes a day? Sure, I could do that on the treadmill at the gym instead of looking at the strippers from the local "Gentlemen's Clubs" who come in to "firm up" and hope that I don't get a boner.
"OHnnnnnnn, OHnnnnnn", oh, or is it, "Ommmmmmmm, Ommmmmmm?"

Oh Julia, do we have a "greeting" when us Taoists meet, you know like "Hail Moonbeam", "Fellow Enlightened One", something like that?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/18/2010 5:39:38 PM >

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 5:57:48 PM

vincentML

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quote:

It is a good word and my personal definition of religion does not exclude the possibility of intelligent direction through evolution.

Butch .... Darwin's explanation of Evolution by Natural Selection does seem to exclude the possibility of intelligent direction. I doubt you will find many evolutionists who will even consider the possibility of intelligent design. It is quite difficlut to reconcile evolution and religion however much many may wish to do so.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 6:03:03 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

no no.

Not that if.

If there`s any if,it`s about your salvation.Not your loved one`s lives.

Actually, if it turns out that that's really the choice, I made it a long time ago. We'll probably run into each other down there.

K.

K, you were unable to make the correct choice because you were not given Grace.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Corinthians2:14

You really had no choice.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 7:31:08 PM

AsmodaisSin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.

Meaning what, exactly? That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?

And I would ask you why is it so difficult for people to simply believe in themselves and take full responsibilty for what happens (both good and bad) in their lives without assigning it to the will of a deity? It is what it is and hard as we may try, we can know very little.

Follow what you will. I prefer to lead or get the hell out of the way.

But one could argue that you find freedom in loving some sort of deity. Love as Thou Wilt, right?

I do find it interesting though, that you feel this is how all/most religious believers feel. That some sort of deity is the cause of the good and bad in life.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 7:32:10 PM

AsmodaisSin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.

Meaning what, exactly? That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?

If you're following a path, you're restricted to where the path goes.

Mr Johnson
Head of Mathematics

Are you? Why not start on a path and meander off into the wilds of your own journey?

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 7:53:41 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It is a good word and my personal definition of religion does not exclude the possibility of intelligent direction through evolution.

Butch .... Darwin's explanation of Evolution by Natural Selection does seem to exclude the possibility of intelligent direction. I doubt you will find many evolutionists who will even consider the possibility of intelligent design. It is quite difficlut to reconcile evolution and religion however much many may wish to do so.

No it does not... it only shows the progression of life... not its beginning, direction, or meaning . In no way does it exclude an intelligent guide. It solves no mysteries or offers no explanations of the universe. It is but one observable part of the whole of which we are far from understanding.

I am not here to convince owner59 of the existence of my God or beliefs but only to get him to look deep into himself to see if he can find his God. He will know if he does and if not I'm sure he will still be a good man.

Butch

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/18/2010 9:27:34 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

you were unable to make the correct choice because you were not given Grace.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Corinthians2:14

Maybe, maybe not. That would depend on whether the spirit of God is to be found in a literal reading of the Bible. Perhaps it is Grace that allows one to see otherwise.

K.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 3:43:03 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
you were unable to make the correct choice because you were not given Grace.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Corinthians2:14

Maybe, maybe not. That would depend on whether the spirit of God is to be found in a literal reading of the Bible. Perhaps it is Grace that allows one to see otherwise.

K.

Quite.

I have already remarked in another thread that Vincent appears unable to understand me.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 4:28:33 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemandingOwner1

Descartes thought of it as a simple risk/benefit analysis:

If you believe in God, and there is no God, then you end up simply disappearing when you die

If you do NOT believe in God, and there is a God, then you end up burning in hell for eternity

His conclusion was 'believe in God, there is no downside and plenty of upside' though stated much more elegantly.

His conclusion was a false dichotomy and his risk analysis ignored the risks of believing in god.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 5:33:22 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

His conclusion was a false dichotomy and his risk analysis ignored the risks of believing in god.

And that is your conclusion. Inasmuch as you think believing in God is not the right way to go, there are just that many that belief it is. I believe its a choice. To demand people believe your choice is the only choice is not only wrong, but ineffective. Not believing in God is as right and rational as you think it is, as much as believing in God is right and rational to others. That is the dichotomy.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 6:06:33 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

you were unable to make the correct choice because you were not given Grace.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Corinthians2:14

Maybe, maybe not. That would depend on whether the spirit of God is to be found in a literal reading of the Bible. Perhaps it is Grace that allows one to see otherwise.

K.

The gospels did not exist when Paul wrote to Corinth, so I would not think he was making a claim for the literal reading of the Bible.

Perhaps you would clarify the meaning implied in your last sentence.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 6:13:53 AM

vincentML

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quote:

No it does not... it only shows the progression of life... not its beginning, direction, or meaning . In no way does it exclude an intelligent guide. It solves no mysteries or offers no explanations of the universe. It is but one observable part of the whole of which we are far from understanding.

Butch, the very essence of Natural Selection in all its wastefulness of wrong (failed) choices excludes intelligent design. It does not address the beginning of life nor was it ever an attempt to explain the Universe. However, intelligent design is very much implicitly excluded.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 6:37:57 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

His conclusion was a false dichotomy and his risk analysis ignored the risks of believing in god.

And that is your conclusion. Inasmuch as you think believing in God is not the right way to go, there are just that many that belief it is. I believe its a choice. To demand people believe your choice is the only choice is not only wrong, but ineffective. Not believing in God is as right and rational as you think it is, as much as believing in God is right and rational to others. That is the dichotomy.

Believing in something based on faith alone is not equivalent to refusing belief until you are given proof.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/19/2010 6:42:43 AM >

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 7:18:24 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.

Meaning what, exactly? That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?

If you're following a path, you're restricted to where the path goes.

Mr Johnson
Head of Mathematics

Are you? Why not start on a path and meander off into the wilds of your own journey?

The choices are pretty clear.

Accept Jesus(Christian) or Mohammad(Muslim) or you don`t get into heaven.Period.I don`t believe there is an alternate route for Christians or Muslims(could someone chime in on the Jewish tradition please) or a middle ground.

I know these are challenging questions and may seem insulting but this is people`s salvation we`re talking about.Not a small, inconsequential subject.

Personally,I believe Jesus lived and was an incredibly enlightened man.Centuries ahead of his time and just a good guy.No push over but no ill will towards anyone.He was the 1st famous liberal who challenged tradition and the status quo.

He fed the poor,gave them free health care and lectured us to feed the hungry,council the prisoner, clothe the naked,and heal the sick.

We now have real evidence that he lived and was a real man.If I`m not mistaken,court records(clay tablets) from the judge who tried Jesus were found(in the judge`s tomb) proving that Jesus existed.

I don`t believe he is the Messiah though.

I don`t believe in people up there looking down or angles or God as a person.It`s way way to big and complicated for human simplicity to quantify.IMO,there is no systematized record keeping with a meet and greet w/ St.Peter to go over your resume before getting into heaven.

But those are my views and I never attempt to judge other people`s path ot God or try to be pushy or use religion for ill will,like rich demonstrated earlier.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/19/2010 7:24:25 AM >

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 7:24:27 AM

vincentML

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quote:

We now have real evidence that he lived and was a real man.If I`m not mistaken,court records(clay tablets) from the judge who tried Jesus were found(in the judge`s tomb) proving that Jesus existed.

Yeh, I would say there is a very high probability for the historic Jesus. But court records? Would you like to buy a bridge to go with that?

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 7:26:58 AM

AsmodaisSin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.

Meaning what, exactly? That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?

If you're following a path, you're restricted to where the path goes.

Mr Johnson
Head of Mathematics

Are you? Why not start on a path and meander off into the wilds of your own journey?

The choices are pretty clear.

Accept Jesus(Christian) or Mohammad(Muslim) or you don`t get into heaven.Period.I don`t believe there is an alternate route for Christians or Muslims(could someone chime in on the Jewish tradition please) or a middle ground.

I know these are challenging questions and may seem insulting but this is people`s salvation we`re talking about.Not a small, inconsequential subject.

Personally,I believe Jesus lived and was an incredibly enlightened man.Centuries ahead of his time and just a good guy.No push over but no ill will towards anyone.He was the 1st famous liberal who challenged tradition and the status quo.

He feed the poor,gave them free health care and lectured us to feed the hungry,council the prisoner, clothe the naked,and heal the sick.

We now have real evidence that he lived and was a real man.If I`m not mistaken,court records(clay tablets) from the judge who tried Jesus were found(in the judge`s tomb) proving that Jesus existed.

I don`t believe he is the Messiah though.

I don`t believe in people up there looking down or angles or God as a person.It`s way way to big and complicated for human simplicity to quantify.IMO,there is no systematized record keeping with a meet and greet w/ St.Peter to go over your resume before getting into heaven.

But those are my views and I never attempt to judge other people`s views, try to be pushy use them for ill will,like rich demonstrated earlier.

-Shrugs.- I can respect that fully. I also agree with about 95% of what you've said. Jesus was a great guy. Up until you said something about no one being there. I guess from my own personal experiences, that's not true for me. I pay homage to Isis. She is my guiding light, but for very different reasons than most people have. Now, I'm sure I'll have some of the uber feminists on my ass for this, but to me, Isis is the perfect slave. Devoted wife, ardent lover, and loyal through death and beyond. She is strong, intelligent, beautiful, and resilient. Even through death she continued to serve Osiris. How could I not find comfort in that?

But, as you've said, forcing your beliefs down someone's throat is not something I'm willing to do. Or mine. ^_^

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 7:27:39 AM

Owner59

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I could be wrong.No links.

But I heard there were records of his trial found,naming Jesus or someone named Jesus.

Maybe you can help?

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 7:35:34 AM

LanceHughes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
<snipped>

We now have real evidence that he lived and was a real man.If I`m not mistaken,court records(clay tablets) from the judge who tried Jesus were found(in the judge`s tomb) proving that Jesus existed.

<snipped>

Owner59: You've got it EXACTLY backwards. The stone tablet adds hard data to the idea that

Jesus is a myth.

No links to clay since the ref is a stone tablet. Here's the NYTimes article:

New York Times
July 6, 2008

By ETHAN BRONNER

JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings from that era — in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone.

It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate.

Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to increase....

Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era artifacts and writings, both in the general public and in the fractured and fiercely competitive scholarly community, as well as the concern over forgery and charlatanism, it will probably be some time before the tablet’s contribution is fully assessed....

Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C....

"This should shake our basic view of Christianity," [Knohl] said as he sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. "Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story."... [emphasis added by LanceHughes]

Mr. Knohl said...[the tablet] strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus....

MORE here: Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 7/19/2010 7:52:19 AM >

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