The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 8:00:49 AM)

I`m referring to our belief in God........or not to believe.


We are lead to believe(as demonstrated here) that God is great,God is full of grace and miracles.


All we have to do to gain internal life and access to heaven,......is believe in God(or Jesus,Mohammad,Moses,etc.)

Sounds so easy.

But if we don`t believe, if we aren`t "saved",if we don`t submit to God,we are told(by Muslims and Christians,not sure what Hebrew rules are)that we will burn in hell forever,sea of fire,pissed on by goats(ewww) with our flesh burning for eternity.

Dem`s the choices.

So my question this Sunday morning,................. is it really a choice ?

It is really free will choice when the choices are 1.Winning the heaven lottery with nothing but comfort,peace and stuff for forever up there,or 2.The worst possible circumstances that any person can imagine,poop/piss/fire and pain(I know that`s some folks idea of a good time) for forever, down there?

If those are the choices,all good forever w/ Jesus or ever-lasting flesh burning and showers of excreta w/ satan,IMO,that`s no choice at all.

There is no free will if there`s an implied threat of violence if you don`t or if you do,you get tons of good stuff.


Discuss.




Musicmystery -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 8:25:14 AM)

I know this isn't precisely what you asked, but this and many related questions come down to the problem of people trying to make finite that which is infinite.




TheHeretic -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 8:26:03 AM)

Christianity requires that you come to God freely, Islam mandates you must submit to God. Granted, the Christian conversion of the Norse, and the Inquisition are great examples of it not always coming out that way in practice, but that's the way the guidebooks are written.

The choice is whether you believe any of it or not. Maybe the next great prophet will clarify things.





Musicmystery -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 8:26:46 AM)

P.S. It's hard to add to Wallace Stevens' thoughts...

Sunday Morning

1

Complacencies of the peignoir, and late
Coffee and oranges in a sunny chair,
And the green freedom of a cockatoo
Upon a rug mingle to dissipate
The holy hush of ancient sacrifice.
She dreams a little, and she feels the dark
Encroachment of that old catastrophe,
As a calm darkens among water-lights.
The pungent oranges and bright, green wings
Seem things in some procession of the dead,
Winding across wide water, without sound.
The day is like wide water, without sound,
Stilled for the passing of her dreaming feet
Over the seas, to silent Palestine,
Dominion of the blood and sepulchre.

2

Why should she give her bounty to the dead?
What is divinity if it can come
Only in silent shadows and in dreams?
Shall she not find in comforts of the sun,
In pungent fruit and bright green wings, or else
In any balm or beauty of the earth,
Things to be cherished like the thought of heaven?
Divinity must live within herself:
Passions of rain, or moods in falling snow;
Grievings in loneliness, or unsubdued
Elations when the forest blooms; gusty
Emotions on wet roads on autumn nights;
All pleasures and all pains, remembering
The bough of summer and the winter branch.
These are the measure destined for her soul.

3

Jove in the clouds had his inhuman birth.
No mother suckled him, no sweet land gave
Large-mannered motions to his mythy mind.
He moved among us, as a muttering king,
Magnificent, would move among his hinds,
Until our blood, commingling, virginal,
With heaven, brought such requital to desire
The very hinds discerned it, in a star.
Shall our blood fail? Or shall it come to be
The blood of paradise? And shall the earth
Seem all of paradise that we shall know?
The sky will be much friendlier then than now,
A part of labor and a part of pain,
And next in glory to enduring love,
Not this dividing and indifferent blue.

4

She says, 'I am content when wakened birds,
Before they fly, test the reality
Of misty fields, by their sweet questionings;
But when the birds are gone, and their warm fields
Return no more, where, then, is paradise?'
There is not any haunt of prophecy,
Nor any old chimera of the grave,
Neither the golden underground, nor isle
Melodious, where spirits gat them home,
Nor visionary south, nor cloudy palm
Remote on heaven's hill, that has endured
As April's green endures; or will endure
Like her remembrance of awakened birds,
Or her desire for June and evening, tipped
By the consummation of the swallow's wings.

5

She says, 'But in contentment I still feel
The need of some imperishable bliss.'
Death is the mother of beauty; hence from her,
Alone, shall come fulfillment to our dreams
And our desires. Although she strews the leaves
Of sure obliteration on our paths,
The path sick sorrow took, the many paths
Where triumph rang its brassy phrase, or love
Whispered a little out of tenderness,
She makes the willow shiver in the sun
For maidens who were wont to sit and gaze
Upon the grass, relinquished to their feet.
She causes boys to pile new plums and pears
On disregarded plate. The maidens taste
And stray impassioned in the littering leaves.

6

Is there no change of death in paradise?
Does ripe fruit never fall? Or do the boughs
Hang always heavy in that perfect sky,
Unchanging, yet so like our perishing earth,
With rivers like our own that seek for seas
They never find, the same receding shores
That never touch with inarticulate pang?
Why set pear upon those river-banks
Or spice the shores with odors of the plum?
Alas, that they should wear our colors there,
The silken weavings of our afternoons,
And pick the strings of our insipid lutes!
Death is the mother of beauty, mystical,
Within whose burning bosom we devise
Our earthly mothers waiting, sleeplessly.

7

Supple and turbulent, a ring of men
Shall chant in orgy on a summer morn
Their boisterous devotion to the sun,
Not as a god, but as a god might be,
Naked among them, like a savage source.
Their chant shall be a chant of paradise,
Out of their blood, returning to the sky;
And in their chant shall enter, voice by voice,
The windy lake wherein their lord delights,
The trees, like serafin, and echoing hills,
That choir among themselves long afterward.
They shall know well the heavenly fellowship
Of men that perish and of summer morn.
And whence they came and whither they shall go
The dew upon their feel shall manifest.

8

She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, 'The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.'
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.
Deer walk upon our mountains, and the quail
Whistle about us their spontaneous cries;
Sweet berries ripen in the wilderness;
And, in the isolation of the sky,
At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings.




Owner59 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 8:35:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Christianity requires that you come to God freely, Islam mandates you must submit to God. Granted, the Christian conversion of the Norse, and the Inquisition are great examples of it not always coming out that way in practice, but that's the way the guidebooks are written.

The choice is whether you believe any of it or not. Maybe the next great prophet will clarify things.



I hear one is gonna burn in hell if they don`t take Jesus into their hearts,ie. believe.

If that`s to be believed,how is that coming to "God freely"?

"Maybe the next great prophet will clarify things."

I`m ok with the next prophet clearing things up and all,I just don`t want the lunatic fringe trying to hasten her arrival.[8D]




Musicmystery -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 8:36:49 AM)

OK, I thought you were seriously starting a discussion.

My mistake.




Owner59 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 8:40:38 AM)

I`m completely serious and would like answers.


"I know this isn't precisely what you asked, but this and many related questions come down to the problem of people trying to make finite that which is infinite"


Not at all.Let it go where it goes.Hopefuly it`ll stay in a place where people will chime in.I want to hear Holly`s thoughts especially.




TheHeretic -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 9:46:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK, I thought you were seriously starting a discussion.

My mistake.


Yup.




CruelNUnsual -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 9:50:25 AM)

The OP is so garbled I dont know what its asking. If its a free will question the answer is that it doesnt matter. Either you have free will and your choices make a difference, or you have the illusion of free will and you make a choice that was pre-ordained. Either way the result is the same....what you choose is the path you take.




juliaoceania -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 9:56:36 AM)

quote:

But if we don`t believe, if we aren`t "saved",if we don`t submit to God,we are told(by Muslims and Christians,not sure what Hebrew rules are)that we will burn in hell forever,sea of fire,pissed on by goats(ewww) with our flesh burning for eternity.

Dem`s the choices.


So you think believing in a deity only allows for these choices?




popeye1250 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:00:10 AM)

Religions were invented by man and have evolved into a way of "controlling" people.
After all, "God" doesn't get any of that money that's collected every week does he? And I could never understand why religions seem to think that the big guy "needs" to have his ass kissed by mortals in order to get into,....."heaven."
And, religions have too many contrasts, "God loves us." "God is vengefull." Well which is it?
I think the Mafia was modeled after the Catholic church, you have the Pope, (Godfather) then Cardinals, (Captains or "Capos" "Capo de Regime") then Bishops (Leiutenants) then Preists (Soldiers).
You don't need "religion" to be thankfull to "God" do you?
I like the American Indians way of doing things, they're thankfull for mother earth and father sky. Of course the Catholic church and other christians doesn't think they'll go to "heaven" because they wearn't baptised. Of course the Indians existed for thousands of years before the new kid on the block arrived! Yeah, I can just see God in heaven, "Whoa! Indians? Did anyone put water on their heads and utter some mumbo jumbo?"
Ha, "there's no free will if there's an implied threat of violence if you don't, or if you do, you get tons of good stuff." You mean like,....."government programs?"




xBullx -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:02:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Christianity requires that you come to God freely, Islam mandates you must submit to God. Granted, the Christian conversion of the Norse, and the Inquisition are great examples of it not always coming out that way in practice, but that's the way the guidebooks are written.

The choice is whether you believe any of it or not. Maybe the next great prophet will clarify things.



I hear one is gonna burn in hell if they don`t take Jesus into their hearts,ie. believe.

If that`s to be believed,how is that coming to "God freely"?

"Maybe the next great prophet will clarify things."

I`m ok with the next prophet clearing things up and all,I just don`t want the lunatic fringe trying to hasten her arrival.[8D]



While I'm still attempting to come to some sense of a spiritual belief system, raised a Catholic, but openly considering all things, in fact having spent the weekend with a couple of Hindus in Lakota Sioux Country I have come to the conclusion, I don't know anything yet.

That being said 59, it appears to me that you have at least made some choice. Right or wrong; freely or not.




NorthernGent -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:03:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

There is no free will if there`s an implied threat of violence if you don`t or if you do,you get tons of good stuff.



The OP supports the existence of free will as opposed to the opposite. Put simply - you're explaining the rationale for the belief in the existence of a god - and of course reason is related to choice and free will.




vincentML -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:04:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

But if we don`t believe, if we aren`t "saved",if we don`t submit to God,we are told(by Muslims and Christians,not sure what Hebrew rules are)that we will burn in hell forever,sea of fire,pissed on by goats(ewww) with our flesh burning for eternity.

Dem`s the choices.


So you think believing in a deity only allows for these choices?


Julia, not sure what you are saying. Do you mean is believing in a deity the only way you have these choices or do you mean do you have choices irrespective of Belief?




juliaoceania -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:07:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

But if we don`t believe, if we aren`t "saved",if we don`t submit to God,we are told(by Muslims and Christians,not sure what Hebrew rules are)that we will burn in hell forever,sea of fire,pissed on by goats(ewww) with our flesh burning for eternity.

Dem`s the choices.


So you think believing in a deity only allows for these choices?


Julia, not sure what you are saying. Do you mean is believing in a deity the only way you have these choices or do you mean do you have choices irrespective of Belief?


It applies to many levels of his OP

Number one, not all people who believe in a higher power believe in the god of the Hebrews... there are other conceptions of god. Not all of them include a "hell". Some allow for other choices. Free will is debated even amongst those who have a conception of god as being the angry lord of the desert people....

There are other levels to my question, but those are the two basic dimensions I was thinking of




vincentML -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:17:49 AM)

quote:

It applies to many levels of his OP

Number one, not all people who believe in a higher power believe in the god of the Hebrews... there are other conceptions of god. Not all of them include a "hell". Some allow for other choices. Free will is debated even amongst those who have a conception of god as being the angry lord of the desert people....

There are other levels to my question, but those are the two basic dimensions I was thinking of


Focusing only on the latter here, I noted elsewhere that Paul, Augustine, and Luther suggested that the choice to believe in Jesus comes only to those who receive God's Grace. These fellows argued that Grace was given to the elected, which would be predeterminative and not free will of course. Others have countered on this board that Grace is offered to everyone, and so free will is preserved. Just sayin.




juliaoceania -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:20:27 AM)

quote:

Focusing only on the latter here, I noted elsewhere that Paul, Augustine, and Luther suggested that the choice to believe in Jesus comes only to those who receive God's Grace. These fellows argued that Grace was given to the elected, which would be predeterminative and not free will of course. Others have countered on this board that Grace is offered to everyone, and so free will is preserved. Just sayin.



Yes, I am aware of the debate about free will in Christianity...


It is not my flavor of religion, I consider myself a Taoist, but I am nonetheless familiar with it....




popeye1250 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:30:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Focusing only on the latter here, I noted elsewhere that Paul, Augustine, and Luther suggested that the choice to believe in Jesus comes only to those who receive God's Grace. These fellows argued that Grace was given to the elected, which would be predeterminative and not free will of course. Others have countered on this board that Grace is offered to everyone, and so free will is preserved. Just sayin.



Yes, I am aware of the debate about free will in Christianity...


It is not my flavor of religion, I consider myself a Taoist, but I am nonetheless familiar with it....


Julia, you're a Taoist? What day of the week do you guys go to church? And what are the "benefits" of being a Taoist over a Christian or a Jew?




hlen5 -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:37:54 AM)

Of course you have free will. It's not a false choice.  If your will is that you don't believe in Christianity, then what difference does it make about where THEY think YOU are going to end up? If you don't believe in Christianity (or Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Yoruba Judaism etc...) their beliefs should have no bearing on your decision of what path, if any, to follow. Choose at will.

MusicMystery, what a lovely reply.




DarkSteven -> RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? (7/18/2010 10:46:16 AM)

OP, I really don't like the way that you presented this.  It's a case of "If I'm going to believe in a deity, what's in it for me?"  If you really think that way, then become a Mormon - they promise elevation to godhood upon death if you've been righteous.  Let different religions have a bidding war for you.

I believe in a G-d.  It is obvious that something greater than man created the world - the only question is whether that something has intelligence or was random chance.  I believe that it was not random chance.

G-d has given me life, a very nice existence, and people who care for me.  I figure that He's due thanks from me just for that, without making further demands upon Him.




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