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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 7:51:47 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

We now have real evidence that he lived and was a real man.If I`m not mistaken,court records(clay tablets) from the judge who tried Jesus were found(in the judge`s tomb) proving that Jesus existed.


Yeh, I would say there is a very high probability for the historic Jesus. But court records? Would you like to buy a bridge to go with that?

I wanna sell a bridge to Owner59 too!

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 7:58:24 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
to me, Isis is the perfect slave.

Isis a slave? Bwahahaha!

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 8:06:55 AM   
AsmodaisSin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
to me, Isis is the perfect slave.

Isis a slave? Bwahahaha!



It's nice to see someone make light of my beliefs. 


_____________________________

Something so symbolic seeps from silence.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 8:14:35 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		It is merely that I consider myself an expert on most mythology. Isis would be likely to sit on your face.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 8:21:59 AM   
AsmodaisSin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It is merely that I consider myself an expert on most mythology. Isis would be likely to sit on your face.


So you know the Osiris story, correct?  With Seth and the box and then the fourteen parts rent from the full body of Osiris?  How she searched for so long the first time, and then searched so long the second?  THAT, in my mind, is the mark of a slave.  To love your Master so deeply and freely and need Him so much that you search the world to put Him back together.  Slaves aren't supposed to be weak-willed or meek in my eyes.  -Shrugs.- 




_____________________________

Something so symbolic seeps from silence.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 8:41:17 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
IMO,there is no systematized record keeping with a meet and greet w/ St.Peter to go over your resume before getting into heaven.


Oh, but there is record keeping. There was in the time of the pagan gods and therefore we must infer - as on Earth, so in 'Heaven' - that the Divine also keeps records.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I don't believe he is the Messiah though.


Then I hope that you do not accept the Old Testament either, for if you do and you do not accept that Jesus is the Messiah, then you will be stuck with the barbarism in that book.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I know these are challenging questions and may seem insulting but this is people`s salvation we're talking about. Not a small, inconsequential subject.


If you want salvation, then oppose the practice of circumcision and repent - and amend if possible - the wrongs that you have done. If you have done so, then tell the God of the Dead that I recommend that you get a free pass.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Accept Jesus (Christian) or Mohammad (Muslim) or you don`t get into heaven. Period. I don`t believe there is an alternate route for Christians or Muslims (could someone chime in on the Jewish tradition please) or a middle ground.


Physical Heaven is not accessible at the moment, so nobody can get there. All that is left now is spiritual Heaven and that is open to nearly all.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 8:46:14 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
So you know the Osiris story, correct?

Indeed, I do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
Slaves aren't supposed to be weak-willed or meek in my eyes.  -Shrugs.- 

I agree.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 10:09:46 AM   
EbonyWood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyWood

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

There's no choice to be made if one's an atheist, other than choosing not to believe in all that baloney. But that's simply way too freeing for some.


Meaning what, exactly?  That you're not free if you're following some sort of God/Goddess path?



If you're following a path, you're restricted to where the path goes.
 
 
Mr Johnson
Head of Mathematics


Are you?  Why not start on a path and meander off into the wilds of your own journey?



Er, yes you are, because if you wander off the path you are no longer following it. C'mon, even neoreligious babblings need to follow basic geometric logic. On the path or not, but not both.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 10:27:01 AM   
mnottertail


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TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,


And sorry I could not travel both


And be one traveler, long I stood


And looked down one as far as I could


To where it bent in the undergrowth;
        5



Then took the other, as just as fair,


And having perhaps the better claim,


Because it was grassy and wanted wear;


Though as for that the passing there


Had worn them really about the same


and so on, Frost.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 11:30:50 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No it does not... it only shows the progression of life... not its beginning, direction, or meaning . In no way does it exclude an intelligent guide. It solves no mysteries or offers no explanations of the universe. It is but one observable part of the whole of which we are far from understanding.


Butch, the very essence of Natural Selection in all its wastefulness of wrong (failed) choices excludes intelligent design. It does not address the beginning of life nor was it ever an attempt to explain the Universe. However, intelligent design is very much implicitly excluded.


No Vince it excludes intelligent design only in your interpretation and narrow thinking. There is nothing to say changes in development were not the result of guidance. Or the ability to change to accommodate circumstances is not another gift of God... Or perhaps life once started is allowed to develop as needed.

But our discussion has nothing to do with the thread and I've no desire to get into a does God exist argument. That was not the purpose of any of my posts. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this point and move on.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 11:39:10 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

No it does not... it only shows the progression of life... not its beginning, direction, or meaning . In no way does it exclude an intelligent guide. It solves no mysteries or offers no explanations of the universe. It is but one observable part of the whole of which we are far from understanding.


Butch, the very essence of Natural Selection in all its wastefulness of wrong (failed) choices excludes intelligent design. It does not address the beginning of life nor was it ever an attempt to explain the Universe. However, intelligent design is very much implicitly excluded.


No Vince it excludes intelligent design only in your interpretation and narrow thinking. There is nothing to say changes in development were not the result of guidance. Or the ability to change to accommodate circumstances is not another gift of God... Or perhaps life once started is allowed to develop as needed.

But our discussion has nothing to do with the thread and I've no desire to get into a does God exist argument. That was not the purpose of any of my posts. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this point and move on.

Butch


fair enough, Butch, except for your comment on my "narrow thinking." Not called for at all.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 12:01:36 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
the very essence of Natural Selection in all its wastefulness of wrong (failed) choices excludes intelligent design.

your comment on my "narrow thinking." Not called for at all.

Um, you definitely have an interesting mind.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 12:02:04 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I could be wrong.No links.

But I heard there were records of his trial found,naming Jesus or someone named Jesus.

Maybe you can help?


Owner, apologies for the wise-ass remark and regret the follow-up by he-who-thinks-he-knows-all. Hmmm...Who could that be.

Anyway, the evidence for the historical Jesus seems to come down to these three and of course Paul, although we only have his word that he met Jesus on the road during a ummmm ... spastic vision of some sort.

quote:

Christian scholars will point to passages that occur in the writings of Tacitus, Pliny and Josephus to prove that Jesus existed. This requires a reader to make a conclusion that is not supported in the case of Tacitus or Pliny. The passage in the writings Josephus may indicate that he existed Josephus, unlike Pliny or Tacitus, at least lived during a time when he could have in theory have met early Christians who knew Jesus.

Tacitus and Pliny: Born too Late
The writings of Tacitus and Pliny do not prove the existence of Jesus as these authors were born late in the first century of the current era.. In the case of the Roman historian, the passage in question comes from his annals. It is no secret that after the fire that consumed Rome in 64 A.D. the emperor Nero scapegoated Christians because he had to blame the fire on someone. Tacitus, who is never objective when he mentions Nero, probably had to balance this with the dislike of the Christians typical of the Roman pagans of his day against his dislike of Nero. Although there is no evidence that Tacitus hated the early Christians, perhaps his hatred for the former emperor was greater. He does mention that the Christians were likely not the cause of the fire but merely a convenient and unpopular target to distract blame away.

The Annals do not prove that Jesus Christ existed but merely that Christians existed in the First Century A.D., which no scholar has ever disputed. Tacitus lived too far away from the events that supposedly took place in Galilee almost a hundred years before his birth to know about them first hand.

The next piece of evidence of Jesus's existence is the letters of Pliny the Younger. In a letter to the Emperor Trajan while serving as the governor of Pontus and Bithynia from 111 to 113 of the current era, Pliny asks the emperor how to handle people caught in a witch hunt and accused of the crime of being Christian.

Trajan's response shows a remarkable and measured restraint as well as indicating leniency for those who repented of the crime of Christianity, but the Emperor suggested the appropriate punishment for those still guilty of being Christians.Pliny's letter fails to prove the existence of Jesus. First, the dates 112 to 113 do not coincide with the date of Jesus's execution which took place in roughly 30 A.D. Secondly, Pliny himself was born long after the death of Jesus and would not have personal knowledge.

Josesphus or was that Eusebius?
The passage in Josephus used to prove the existence of Jesus is a bit harder to pin down because Josephus lived in the right time, lived in the right area and perhaps most importantly, was Jewish. The passage often quoted as proof of the existence of Christ is believed to have been inserted by a Roman Catholic bishop, Eusebius, in the fourth century A.D. Eusebius was a historian in his own right, but the bishop was more concerned with proving the legitimacy of the early Roman Catholic church than he was in historical accuracy. When the passage believed to be inserted by Eusebius on Jesus is removed, the text that occurs in Josehpus's The Jewish War flows in context..

Little proof exists outside of the new testament that a historical Jesus existed. The Existence of the Gospels themselves argues powerfully enough for the existence of Jesus Christ.


http://roman-history.suite101.com/article.cfm/pliny_tacitus_josephus_and_jesus

Josephus is the most interesting. He was the General who tried to defend Judea when the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 whatever. He went over to the Roman side after losing. No dummy he. I have read that there are actually two mentions of Jesus in Josephus and it is only the second one is in question. My source for that was Bart D Ehrman, an evangelical christian minister/professor of theology who became an atheist. Highly recommended by moi.

http://www.bartdehrman.com/





< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/19/2010 12:05:31 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 12:11:48 PM   
mikeyOfGeorgia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`m referring to our belief in God........or not to believe.


We are lead to believe(as demonstrated here) that God is great,God is full of grace and miracles.


All we have to do to gain internal life and access to heaven,......is believe in God(or Jesus,Mohammad,Moses,etc.)

Sounds so easy.

But if we don`t believe, if we aren`t "saved",if we don`t submit to God,we are told(by Muslims and Christians,not sure what Hebrew rules are)that we will burn in hell forever,sea of fire,pissed on by goats(ewww) with our flesh burning for eternity.

Dem`s the choices.

So my question this Sunday morning,................. is it really a choice ?

It is really free will choice when the choices are 1.Winning the heaven lottery with nothing but comfort,peace and stuff for forever up there,or 2.The worst possible circumstances that any person can imagine,poop/piss/fire and pain(I know that`s some folks idea of a good time) for forever, down there?

If those are the choices,all good forever w/ Jesus or ever-lasting flesh burning and showers of excreta w/ satan,IMO,that`s no choice at all.

There is no free will if there`s an implied threat of violence if you don`t or if you do,you get tons of good stuff.


Discuss.


Just out of curiosity, how do we 'know' that (taking for granted everyone else here believes all this, because i don't) Hell is as they say? Afterall, it's religion that came up with the various books that each religion reads all the time? So, they can pretty much say what they want to say about it. Which i'm sure could have been how the Bible (for an example) was originally written. to keep people in line with fear tactics. Also (if there truly IS a heaven) how does anyone REALLY know what it's like up there? Again, all we have to go by is some acient book (of questionable origins, if i recall, there have been several different translations of said book over the eons).

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 12:17:52 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I would not think he was making a claim for the literal reading of the Bible.

Perhaps you would clarify the meaning implied in your last sentence.

Not Paul. You.

K.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 12:27:56 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
you were unable to make the correct choice because you were not given Grace.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Corinthians2:14

Maybe, maybe not. That would depend on whether the spirit of God is to be found in a literal reading of the Bible. Perhaps it is Grace that allows one to see otherwise.

K.


It is ironic that Vincent says and quotes these things.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 1:05:16 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Owner59: You've got it EXACTLY backwards. The stone tablet adds hard data to the idea that

Jesus is a myth.

Not at all. It simply suggests that the resurrection myth is a myth. Furthermore, there is no solid indication that Christ "adopted" it (though obviously the religion that bears his name did). The Gospels appeared after the Epistles and, unfortunately, suffered from Paul's influence. But they still retain teachings that flatly contradict the notion of a blood-soaked Deity who requires sacrifice.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/19/2010 1:08:36 PM >

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 1:44:38 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry Vince I did not mean that in a derogatory way... Maybe I should have said you need to think of it in a broader less restrictive way.

Hmmm... not sure that is any better...how about think of it in my way...

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/19/2010 1:45:15 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 1:45:05 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It is ironic that Vincent says and quotes these things.

Well he was joking, of course. But it is difficult not to notice that whenever someone argues from a literal reading of the Bible they are almost always either a Christian Fundamentalist or an Atheist. And in my opinion, such arguments are so vacuous that the difference of opinion fades into irrelevance.

K.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 2:04:12 PM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

His conclusion was a false dichotomy and his risk analysis ignored the risks of believing in god.


And that is your conclusion.  Inasmuch as you think believing in God is not the right way to go, there are just that many that belief it is.  I believe its a choice.  To demand people believe your choice is the only choice is not only wrong, but ineffective.  Not believing in God is as right and rational as you think it is, as much as believing in God is right and rational to others.  That is the dichotomy.


Believing in something based on faith alone is not equivalent to refusing belief until you are given proof.


The choice to believe in God is a choice.  And since God isn't here in the flesh, it is a belief based on faith.  Faith does not need proof.  Faith needs someone to just believe.  That some want rock solid proof God exists to believe in him doesn't mean everybody needs rock solid proof to believe in him.  To call it a false dichotomy because he believes there is more benefit to believe, whether its true or not tells me two things.  Actually, it presents two things that I assume.  I assume he that said there are benefits to believing whether he exists or not, probably "wants to" believe, but isn't sure, so has rationalized that its best for him to believe in God, so he can reap the rewards of an after-life with God, if there is one.  (Not realizing that IF there really is a God, God probably knows how this fellow truly feels deep inside, despite whatever he says)

To demand you need proof to believe all that just means you want proof to believe all that.  Its not rocket science, if you ask me.  Some want proof, others feel they don't need proof.  That is the dichotomy.  Demanding or saying the one is wrong is neither right or wrong...its just trying to push your beliefs on the matter. 

I can understand that some people need proof to believe.  What some might not be able to understand is some people can believe without proof.  There lies the difference.  And neither is right or wrong in my book.  They are just practicing their beliefs.

At least thats how I see it.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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