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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 6:09:53 PM   
Anarrus


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This Gary Larson cartoon pretty much covers everything....





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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 6:44:22 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

God's a Cardinal fan...explains it all...


No, someone sold their soul to Satan for the 2006 world series win... If God had been a Cardinal fan, the Cards wouldnt have missed missed a series at all.


Nah...he likes to tease us and punish you....but you deserve it...poor goat

Butch

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 6:54:36 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The argument that you are referring to as "on-the-fence" was invented by Blaise Pascal and is known as Pascal's Wager. It's been around for over 300 years and the holes in it are well established.



What holes? And it isn't "on the fence". It is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.


The hole is that you can't "choose" to believe just to cover your ass...you truly believe or you dont, and any god worth worshipping can tell the difference.


Another hole might be that god values Reasoned Conclusion, right or wrong, because it makes use of the very distinguishing evolved characteristic of humankind as opposed to lazy-ass unexamined acceptance of the "wisdom" and "tradition" passed along by preacher or parents.

Additionally, Pascal was very much a Christian so he presumed Belief was a value. Hey, maybe not. Wouldn't that be a kick in the ass?

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 7:09:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

As Paul said in Corinthians: Anyone who is without the Spirit cannot understand [the truths] that come from the Spirit. To provide an anology: If one is born blind, one cannot possibly comprehend what a color is and what sight is. One might describe it mathematically, investigate it with sensors, describe at how many nanometers the color blue occurs - but such a blind person cannot possibly experience and comprehend what a color is.


You misrepresent Paul's message to Corinth. As attested by Augustine and Luther only those who have Grace are believers in the true God, who is Jesus. Only God gives Grace. So the Believers are Elected. Obviously, you with your blasphemous description of the Divine as a mass of polar particles were not Elected and are therefore forever damned to perdition. hee hee on your soul, Rule. Deal with it.



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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 6:13:39 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
And it isn't "on the fence".

I know, that's why I was explaining that to someone else and telling her that the actual name was Pascal's Wager.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
It is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.

No, while Pascal certainly attempted to make an argument based on reason the huge assumptions he makes are based on faith, to the point that Voltaire referred to his argument as indecent and childish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Criticisms 

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
What holes?

Well as I already pointed out the result of believing in god even if he doesn't exist isn't nothing. As others have pointed out how one goes about believing in god is generally important. But most importantly which god? http://www.fact-index.com/l/li/list_of_deities.html


Abenaki
  • Azeban - trickster
  • Bmola - bird spirit
  • Gluskap - kind protector of humanity
  • Malsumis - cruel, evil god
  • Tabaldak - the creator

Deities in the Abrahamic religions
Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in the same God, but Muslims, and to some degree Jews (see below), visualize God in strictly monotheistic terms, whereas most Christians believe that God exists as a Trinity.

Judaism
Yahweh is the Biblical name for God used by ancient Jews. Adonai, Eloheynu and Hashem are some of the names of God used in modern day Judaism. The Hebrew word "elohim" is also used to refer to God in the Torah (and the Christian Old Testament), and this refers to a plural nature of God. However, Jews hold to a slightly more monotheistic view of God than Christians. They reject Jesus Christ as a false messiah, and do not assign any deity to him. However, the English word "God" (spelled "G-d" in deference to the taboo against pronouncing the Tetragrammaton) is commonly accepted among Jews to denote God (or G-d), as well.
Christianity
Historically, Christianity has professed belief in one deity, three divine persons (the Trinity), that make up one deity or Godhead, known as "God". (See Athanasian Creed.) Thus, most Christians are trinitarian monotheists, although there have been dissenters; see the articles Arianism, Unitarianism (History), Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Jehovah's Witnesses for examples. Most of these unitarian groups believe or believed that only God the Father is a deity; Latter-day Saints believe that the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit are three distinct deities.
Islam
Allah is the most traditional Muslim name for God. Islamic tradition also speaks of 99 Names of God.

Other
Two smaller faiths that don't neatly fit into any of the categories of Abrahamic religions. Rastafarianism worships Jah and the Baha'i Faith also worships the same God as Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Akamba mythology

Akan mythology

Ashanti mythology

Australian Aboriginal mythology

Aztec mythology

Bushongo mythology
  • Bomazi
  • Bumba

Celtic mythology
a more complete list can be found here.


Chinese mythology

Chippewa mythology

Creek mythology
  • Hisagita-imisi

Dacian mythology

Dahomey mythology
  • Ag�
  • Ayaba
  • Da
  • Gbadu
  • Gleti
  • Gu
  • Lisa
  • Loko
  • Mawu
  • Sakpata
  • Sogbo
  • Xevioso
  • Zinsi
  • Zinsu

Dinka mythology
  • Abuk
  • Denka
  • Juok
  • Nyalitch

Efik mythology
  • Abassi
  • Atai

Egyptian mythology
Egyptian deities are often portrayed as having animal heads in art; as an example, Anubis is often portrayed in statuary as having the body of a human, but the head of a canine. Many gods were portrayed with different animal heads, depending upon the situation. The Egyptians did NOT actually believe that their gods had animal heads; rather, they portrayed them that way as artistic symbolism. This may have been for the benefit of the illiterate.

  • Anubis, God of Embalming, Friend of the Dead
  • The Aten, the embodiment of the Sun's rays
  • Atum, a creator deity
  • Bast, Goddess of Cats
  • Bes, God-Demon of Protection, Childbirth and Entertainment
  • Geb, God of the Earth
  • Hapi God of the Nile and Fertility
  • Hathor, Goddess of Love and Music
  • Heget Goddess of Childbirth
  • Horus the falcon-headed god
  • Imhotep God of wisdom, medicine and magic
  • Isis, Goddess of Magic, sister of Nephthys
  • Khepry, the scarab beetle, the embodiment of the dawn
  • Khnum, a creator deity
  • Maahes
  • Ma'at, Goddess of Truth, Balance and Order
  • Menhit
  • Mont, god of war
  • Naunet, the primal waters
  • Neith, the great mother goddess
  • Nephthys, mother of Anubis
  • Nut, goddess of heaven and the sky
  • Osiris
  • Ptah, a creator deity
  • Ra, the sun, possible father of Anubis
  • Sekhmnet, goddess of war and battles
  • Sobek, Crocodile God
  • Set, God of Storms, possible father of Anubis
  • Tefnut, goddess of order, justice, time, Heaven and Hell and weather
  • Thoth, god of the moon, drawing, writing, geometry, wisdom, medicine, music, astronomy, and magic

See http://touregypt.net/godsofegypt/ for the Egyptian Ministry of Tourism's extensive information on Egyptian Deities.

Etruscan mythology

Old Finnish deities
There are very few written documents about old Finnish religions; also the names of deities and practices of worship changed from place to place. The following is a summary of the most important and most widely worshipped deities.

  • Ukko, god of heaven and thunder
  • Rauni, Ukko's wife, goddess of fertility
  • Tapio, god of forest and wild animals
  • Mielikki, Tapio's wife
  • Pekko (or Peko), god or goddess (the actual gender is obscure) of fields and acriculture
  • Ahti, (or Ahto) god of streams, lakes and sea
  • Otso, son of a god, king of the forest whose carnal form is the bear
  • Tuoni, goddess of the underworld
  • Perkele, a god of the Lithuanians, drafted to do duty as "the devil"
  • Jumala, a physical idol, later the name of the christian god

Ancient Greek mythology

See also Demigods, the Dryads, the Fates, the Erinyes, the Graces, the Horae, the Muses, the Nymphs, the Pleiades, the Titans

Guarani mythology
  • Abaangui
  • Jurupari

Haida mythology
  • Gyhldeptis
  • Lagua
  • Nankil'slas
  • Sin
  • Ta'axet
  • Tia

Hinduism

Hopi mythology

See also kachina

Huron mythology
  • Iosheka

Ibo mythology
  • Aha Njoku
  • Ala
  • Chuku

Incan mythology

Inuit mythology

Iroquois mythology
  • Adekagagwaa
  • Gaol
  • Gendenwitha
  • Gohone
  • Hahgwehdaetgan
  • Hahgwehdiyu
  • Onatha

Isoko mythology

Japanese mythology
  • Aji-Suki-Taka-Hiko-Ne - god of thunder
  • Amaterasu - sun goddess
  • Amatsu Mikaboshi - god of evil
  • Ame-no-Uzume - fertility goddess
  • Benzaiten - goddess of money, eloquent persuasion, and knowledge
  • Bishamon - god of happiness and war
  • Chimata-no-Kami - god of crossroads, highways and footpaths
  • Hiruko - solar god
  • Ho-Masubi - god of fire
  • Inari - god of rice
  • Izanami - creator goddess
  • Izanagi - creator god
  • Kagu-tsuchi - god of fire
  • Kawa-no-Kami - god of rivers
  • Kura-Okami - god of rain
  • Nai-No-Kami - god of earthquakes
  • O-Kuni-Nushi - god of sorcery and medicine
  • O-Wata-Tsu-Mi - god of the sea
  • Sengen-Sama - goddess of the Mt. Fujiyama
  • Seven Gods of Fortune
  • Shina-Tsu-Hiko - god of wind
  • Shina-To-Be - goddess of wind
  • Susa-no-Wo - god of storms and thunder, snakes and farming.
  • Taka-Okami - god of rain
  • Take-Mikazuchi - god of thunder
  • Tsuku-Yomi - god of the moon
  • Uke-Mochi - goddess of food
  • Wakahiru-Me - goddess of the dawn sun

see also Kami

Khoikhoi mythology
  • Gamab
  • Heitsi-eibib
  • Tsui'goab

Modern Western mythology ("Kitchen Gods")
In addition to the gods listed above, there are several minor mythological beings spoken of in current western culture and may be taken more or less seriously. These are commonly called Kitchen Gods.


Kwakiutl mythology
  • Kewkwaxa'we

Lakota mythology

Lotuko mythology
  • Ajok

Latvian mythology

Lugbara mythology

Maya mythology
  • Ahaw Kin - Sun God
  • Chac - Rain God
  • Yum Kaax - Corn God
  • Kukulcan - Feathered Serpent God
  • Xbalanque - God of the Jaguar
  • Hunah Ku - Creator God
  • Xi Balba - God of the Death
  • Ix Chel - Moon Goddess
  • Itzamna - Reptile Creator God
  • Bolon tza cab - Ruling God of All
  • Balac - War God
  • Bacabs - Gods of the 4 directions
  • Balam - Protector God

Mesopotamian mythology
  • Anshar - father of heaven
  • Anu - the god of the highest heaven
  • Apsu - the ruler of gods and underworld oceans
  • Ashur - national god of the Assyrians
  • Damkina - Earth mother goddess
  • Ea - god of wisdom
  • Enlil - god of weather and storms
  • Enurta - god of war
  • Hadad - weather god
  • Ishtar - goddess of love
  • Kingu - husband of Tiamat
  • Kishar - father of earth
  • Marduk - national god of the Babylonians
  • Mummu - god of mists
  • Nabu - god of the scribal arts
  • Nintu - mother of all gods
  • Shamash - god of the sun and of justice
  • Sin - moon god
  • Tiamat - dragon goddess

Navaho mythology
  • Ahsonnutli
  • Bikeh Hozho
  • Estanatelhi
  • Glispa
  • Hasteoltoi
  • Hastshehogan
  • Tonenili
  • Tsohanoai
  • Yolkai Estasan

Norse mythology

Pawnee mythology
  • Pah
  • Shakuru
  • Tirawa

Polynesian mythology

see also Menehune

Old Prussian / Baltic deities
  • Bangputtis
  • Melletele
  • Occupirn
  • Perkunatete
  • Perkunos
  • Pikullos
  • Potrimpos
  • Swaigstigr

Pygmy mythology
  • Arebati
  • Khonvoum
  • Tore

Roman mythology

Salish mythology
  • Amotken

Sardinian deities
Sardinian deities, mainly referred to in the age of Nuragici people, are partly derived from Phoenician ones.

  • Janas Goddesses of death
  • Maymon God of Hades
  • Panas Goddesses of reproduction (women dead in childbirth)
  • Thanit Goddess of Earth and fertility

Seneca mythology
  • Eagentci
  • Hagones
  • Hawenniyo
  • Kaakwha

Slavic mythology

Sumerian mythology

See also Annuna

Tumbuka mythology
  • Chiuta

Ugarit mythology
  • El, the father God and head
  • Baal, the God of rain
  • Asherah, the Mother and Goddess of the Grove
  • Yam, the God of the sea
  • Mot, the God of death

Note: Ugarit had a profound influence on Canaanite religion and some influence on the Abrahamic religions, as well.
Winnebago mythology

Yoruba mythology

Zulu mythology
  • Mamlambo
  • Mbaba Mwana Waresa
  • uKqili
  • Umvelinqangi
  • Unkulunkulu

Zuni mythology
  • Apoyan Tachi
  • Awitelin Tsta
  • Awonawilona
  • Kokopelli



(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 6:59:36 AM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The hole is that you can't "choose" to believe just to cover your ass...you truly believe or you dont, and any god worth worshipping can tell the difference.


I was the one who originally chose the words "on-the-fence" and willbe, as much as you like to argue with what anyone says, you seemed to be the only one who got what I was saying.  I don't give two hoots about anyone named Blaise or any history of the saying or anything else.  All I meant was you can't "sit on the fence" ready to reap the benefits of either side of that fence...just because of what you say....refusing to say what you actually mean...or believe.

Geez you guys will argue over anything!!

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 7:41:34 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00




quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The hole is that you can't "choose" to believe just to cover your ass...you truly believe or you dont, and any god worth worshipping can tell the difference.


I was the one who originally chose the words "on-the-fence" and willbe, as much as you like to argue with what anyone says, you seemed to be the only one who got what I was saying.  I don't give two hoots about anyone named Blaise or any history of the saying or anything else.  All I meant was you can't "sit on the fence" ready to reap the benefits of either side of that fence...just because of what you say....refusing to say what you actually mean...or believe.

Geez you guys will argue over anything!!


I DO NOT!

;)

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 12:23:08 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The argument that you are referring to as "on-the-fence" was invented by Blaise Pascal and is known as Pascal's Wager. It's been around for over 300 years and the holes in it are well established.



What holes? And it isn't "on the fence". It is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.


Really? I thought it was a reasoned argument for protecting your ass... ummm, yanno, just in case.

Seriously, NG, how is it a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god? Puzzled.



It's self-explanatory.

Believe and you've lost nothing in the event there is no god.

Lack belief and you've lost quite a bit in the event there is a god.

That is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.

You might not agree with it - but that's an altogether different matter.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 12:26:26 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The argument that you are referring to as "on-the-fence" was invented by Blaise Pascal and is known as Pascal's Wager. It's been around for over 300 years and the holes in it are well established.



What holes? And it isn't "on the fence". It is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.


The hole is that you can't "choose" to believe just to cover your ass...you truly believe or you dont, and any god worth worshipping can tell the difference.



You can believe for any which reason you like.

And yes - Pascal claimed that it was reasonable to believe in order to 'cover your ass'.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 12:32:18 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

No, while Pascal certainly attempted to make an argument based on reason the huge assumptions he makes are based on faith, to the point that Voltaire referred to his argument as indecent and childish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Criticisms 




Speaking of assumptions.......seems you're assuming that somehow Voltaire is the judge and jury here. Doesn't carry so much weight when you consider Voltaire wasn't an original thinker - he was a champion of reason - John Locke's ideas - who incidentally was a Puritan.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 12:37:20 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent



And yes - Pascal claimed that it was reasonable to believe in order to 'cover your ass'.


Which is why it is a "hole" in his wager.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 12:41:05 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

And yes - Pascal claimed that it was reasonable to believe in order to 'cover your ass'.


Which is why it is a "hole" in his wager.


At the risk of embroiling myself in a conversation that will probably amount to the verbal equivalent of a slow and painful death.......there is nothing unreasonable about ideas based on self-interest and the associated rewards.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 1:12:35 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

And yes - Pascal claimed that it was reasonable to believe in order to 'cover your ass'.


Which is why it is a "hole" in his wager.


At the risk of embroiling myself in a conversation that will probably amount to the verbal equivalent of a slow and painful death.......there is nothing unreasonable about ideas based on self-interest and the associated rewards.


Nothing unreasonable at all about self-delusion.

"Fallacy One: It assumes that there is only one god which can be believed in, the Christian one. This is not true, since there are a plethora of gods that have been believed throughout the millennia. This would have to be applied to each and every one of those gods to be true, and this would clearly be impossible, due to the clashing natures of many of the said gods.

Fallacy Two: It assumes that simply wagering on [the Christian] God will buy one entrance into Heaven. While this may be so, the Wager does not instill a belief, it instills an appearance of a belief. Since the god in question is presumed to be all-knowing, he would be able to tell a false from a true belief. Therefore, the belief from the Wager would not qualify should belief be the requirement for entrance into Heaven.

Fallacy Three: It creates a moral dilemma. You, by using this, are sending the most dedicated humanitarians, who just happen to not be Christian, to Hell, while you set a place in Heaven for those mass-murders who happen to be Christian. Since [the Christian] God is supposed to be a loving god, how then could he entertain the embodiment of hatred, yet turn away the embodiment of love?

Fallacy Four: It ignores too many alternate possibilities - some of which are addressed by existing religions, and some which are not. Some examples: A God could reward on criteria which seem meaningless to us - hair colour, taste in clothes, music etc. or A God might not be concerned with humans at all - the universe could be here for hydrogen for all we know. Or God may even reward those who don't believe.

Fallacy Five: It assumes any person is overly fearful of death to be worried about it being a conclusion to their life.

Fallacy Six: It assumes that a belief in God is all that is needed, when many Christians would disagree and would suggest that there are "guidelines" that you should live by (and that God requires you to live by if your belief is sincere). If these guidelines require a change on your part (for example: No sex before marriage, no smoking, denying you are a homosexual, not marrying a non-Christian, etc.), then it could be argued that you have lost something if the Christian God turns out to not exist."

http://arc-t.org/arc-tiquities/debates-pascal.html


Here is the atheist's version of the wager:

(1) It is possible that God exists and it is possible that God does not exist.
(2) If one believes in God then if he exists then one either receives an infinitely great reward or an infinitely great punishment and if he does not exist then one loses little or nothing.
(3) If one does not believe in God then if he exists then one either receives an infinitely great reward or an infinitely great punishment and if he does not exist then one gains little or nothing.
(4) It is better to either receive an infinitely great reward or an infinitely great punishment or gain little or nothing than it is to either receive an infinitely great reward or an infinitely great punishment or lose little or nothing.
Therefore:
(5) It is better not to believe in God than it is to believe in God.
(6) If one course of action is better than another then it is rational to follow that course of action and irrational to follow the other.
Therefore:
(7) It is rational not to believe in God and irrational to believe in God.


(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 1:12:36 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The argument that you are referring to as "on-the-fence" was invented by Blaise Pascal and is known as Pascal's Wager. It's been around for over 300 years and the holes in it are well established.



What holes? And it isn't "on the fence". It is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.


Really? I thought it was a reasoned argument for protecting your ass... ummm, yanno, just in case.

Seriously, NG, how is it a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god? Puzzled.



It's self-explanatory.

Believe and you've lost nothing in the event there is no god.

Lack belief and you've lost quite a bit in the event there is a god.

That is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.

You might not agree with it - but that's an altogether different matter.


I think your syllogism is flawed. The conclusion does not logically follow from A & B.

Believe and you've lost nothing in the event there is no god.

Lack belief and you've lost quite a bit in the event there is a god.

Better to believe than not believe.


The subject of the logic is "belief" not "god."



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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 4:47:28 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Believe and you've lost nothing in the event there is no god.

Really?






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(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/23/2010 5:10:21 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Speaking of assumptions.......seems you're assuming that somehow Voltaire is the judge and jury here.


 I'm not and I can't help but notice that you have no response to the gaping holes in Pascals Wager that I've pointed out.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 1:36:02 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Nothing unreasonable at all about self-delusion.



To willbe....et al....

Again......you're attempting to act as judge and jury on 'self-delusion'. Seems you are yet to grasp that human beings have a habit of using imagination and vision to form opinions.....many of which are not based on empiricism and as such can lead to charges of 'delusion'.

When you grasp this basic tenet of human behaviour......and I'd suggest you start by examining your own ideas....whence they came.....the incidence of experience or lack thereof.....then you may be in a position to understand why Pascal's Wager is an entirely reasonable proposition (based on rational self-interest).

Until that day arrives.....you'll be running round thinking that somehow your ideas are built on the foundations of experience.....do yourself a favour and read Descartes.....you should arrive at the conclusion that beliefs (including those beliefs that you take to be self evident) are easy to undermine and extremely difficult to restore. It depends upon the extent of analysis and scrutiny that you apply to your own beliefs.

Those who rip apart the belief in a god.....and mock it as though they are operating from a position of higher knowledge and superior ideas.....are guilty of the greatest delusion of them all....that being the belief that they have the answers.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 10:02:44 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Nothing unreasonable at all about self-delusion.



To willbe....et al....

Again......you're attempting to act as judge and jury on 'self-delusion'. Seems you are yet to grasp that human beings have a habit of using imagination and vision to form opinions.....many of which are not based on empiricism and as such can lead to charges of 'delusion'.

When you grasp this basic tenet of human behaviour......and I'd suggest you start by examining your own ideas....whence they came.....the incidence of experience or lack thereof.....then you may be in a position to understand why Pascal's Wager is an entirely reasonable proposition (based on rational self-interest).

Until that day arrives.....you'll be running round thinking that somehow your ideas are built on the foundations of experience.....do yourself a favour and read Descartes.....you should arrive at the conclusion that beliefs (including those beliefs that you take to be self evident) are easy to undermine and extremely difficult to restore. It depends upon the extent of analysis and scrutiny that you apply to your own beliefs.

Those who rip apart the belief in a god.....and mock it as though they are operating from a position of higher knowledge and superior ideas.....are guilty of the greatest delusion of them all....that being the belief that they have the answers.


You are correct, I am an empiricist. And since empiricism is the ONLY means of verification of anything, all else is conjecture at best, self-delusion at worst. Eschewing empiricism is the one hole in Austrian economics that holds it back from being developed into a fully consistent theory.

PW is not reasonable based on rational self-interest if you believe that god requires you to be a "true believer" as is my understanding of a Christian god.

Its really very simple if that is correct, and I am too far from Sunday school to take a firm position on that.

However, even if that is not correct you still have the mathematics of the proposition. The probability of there being a god is miniscule, approcahing zero. The value of the rewards of there being a god and appeasing that god approach infinity. But the limit of x times infinity as x approaches zero is zero. (This is not the same as zero times infinity being zero, an undefined aritmethical operation, even though often presented as "proof" that zero time infinity = 0).

Therefore any change in preferred behavior results in some form of loss in value, which is worse than zero, the result even when there are infinite rewards.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/24/2010 10:15:14 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 12:05:26 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Those who rip apart the belief in a god.....and mock it as though they are operating from a position of higher knowledge and superior ideas.....are guilty of the greatest delusion of them all....that being the belief that they have the answers.


Quite. It is typical for an anosognosiac to believe he has all the answers, whereas in fact he is perpetually unaware of his blind spot where the true answer may be found.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
since empiricism is the ONLY means of verification of anything

You mean of objective verification.

Yet there is also such a thing as subjective experience and realization.

Also, logic is not the only means of arriving at a correct solution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The probability of there being a god is miniscule, approaching zero.

Billions of people disagree with you. History and mythology disagree with you.

As for the Divine: being 'outside' our universe, it indeed does not exist, as only those objects that are inside our universe exist. So you are right in that. However, in order to talk about the reality of the Divine, I use apostrophes to describe what is 'outside' our universe: the Divine 'exists'.

As for human avatars of the pagan gods, there are plenty about, completely unaware of their own nature: getting on the bus, brushing their teeth, proclaiming themselves atheists, being wise or stupid or prosaic or indifferent.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 12:13:00 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

PW is not reasonable based on rational self-interest if you believe that god requires you to be a "true believer" as is my understanding of a Christian god.



Take a few minutes to think about this in the context of the discussion.......

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 140
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