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Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 4:38:23 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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Okay, so there have been hundreds if not thousands of posts on these forums in which the major form of advice is block, delete and move on. All well and good when you are online and trying to escape from trolls, people who are just incompatible with you, scammers or what have you. I certainly have blocked my fair share, probably more than most, in an attempt to take responsibility for my own online experiences and keep to quality, education or things which have entertainment value to me.

Toes to toes though, it's not so easy to block and delete. If you are serious about BDSM or starting a life with a power dynamic, eventually you are going to find yourself alone, in a room with someone who has the power of life and death over you. (Is that too dramatic?) When I am tied up, gagged and unable to defend myself, all I have to keep me safe is the time I took *before* allowing myself to get into that position to use my instincts and my intellect so as to reassure myself that this person isn't going to do me harm. That's great and probably enough if I have common sense and good instincts. As has often been said here, common sense is not so common and not everyone has good instincts. Also, there are some folks that are so smooth at what they do that even a jaded old bird like me can be fooled for a while.. perhaps even long enough to allow myself to be put in a situation which is not conducive to my overall physical health and well-being.

In other words, you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. It's that first phrase of which I am speaking. You can fool all of the people some of the time. I fall into that catagory. I can be fooled, not easily, not often.. but on occasion either my gut or intellect fail me and I don't see who is really in front of me. I see only the image of what they have represented because there are some folks out there that can actually wear a mask hiding their true selves for a very, very long time. Such would probably take a lot of time and effort but motivation and agenda have always been driving forces in much of human history.

So what do you do when you find yourself in that situation? When your gut and instinct have failed you and you are bound by someone who is dangerous to you? Besides physical restraints, there are mental and emotional restraints that are just as difficult (if not more so) to cast off so I am speaking asking about situations when you are already bound.. not what to do to prevent that from happening.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as the saying goes and that is usually very good advice but when you find yourself already ill, what's the cure since the oz of prevention wasn't already in place? When you are tied down, wearing that gag, can't scream for help .. do you just.. die? How do you fight that? How do you flee that?

Just putting this out there hoping that folks might share their perspectives and maybe one or two will see this and it will be their oz of prevention so they don't actually ever find themselves in a situation where they are all trussed up and what's going through their mind is a really bad fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done?

I put this in General BDSM because I would like to see input from any orientation or gender. Dominants are *all* the people, too, and can be mindfucked, fooled and led just the same as anyone else by a clever or devious mind with motivation and an agenda.



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 4:45:52 AM   
mistoferin


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I've always said that there is no reality quite as stark as there is in the moment that the last restraint clicks shut. Been there, done that. Fuck, fuck FUCK! I'll have to think about this one for a bit and come back to it.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 4:53:56 AM   
frazzle


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Been there, done that, we'd been together for 5 months.

i decided that the cuffs were coming off even if it meant broken bones in my hands/wrists, it was the lesser of 2 evils. Luckily i didnt break bones, though thought about breaking a few of his.

Strange i stopped seeing him after that!!!

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 5:33:52 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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This situation doesn't just apply to the BDSM arena. It applies to the whole of life. My classic was to trusted my 2nd wife even though the writing was on the wall that we were heading for a break up and yet I thought she also had a sense of honour and wouldn't nail my hide to the wall for the crows to peck. Aye I blindly went and placed all the properties and other assets in her name to protect them if things went bad after I got bridging finance to expand my business overseas and bugger me dead within 245 hours she served papers for our divorce and took the lot values at close on 2.5 million Australian Dollars leaving me after I paid my crews and leases before I handed the business to someone else, with AU$15 to my name. The bitch was already earning close to 1 million dollars (au) from her Amway business so it was pure bitch-craft, and spite. 

'twas a good lesson and one which I took to heart. It was after all only things and money both of which were replaced after a few years.




_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 5:40:36 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I see only the image of what they have represented because there are some folks out there that can actually wear a mask hiding their true selves for a very, very long time. Such would probably take a lot of time and effort but motivation and agenda have always been driving forces in much of human history.

So what do you do when you find yourself in that situation? When your gut and instinct have failed you and you are bound by someone who is dangerous to you? Besides physical restraints, there are mental and emotional restraints that are just as difficult (if not more so) to cast off so I am speaking asking about situations when you are already bound.. not what to do to prevent that from happening.




Great topic. I edited the above to the two points that strike me, personally. What you are speaking of does not only happen with a stranger or even a short term relationship; it can happen with someone you have spent years thinking you know. When you love someone and they start changing and becoming slightly dangerous, it is often very difficult to see that reality, since most of the time you are in love with what they were, or worse, the mask that you spoke of; a phantom who was never who you thought they were.

It is very hard to deal with that. As far as emotional bonds being difficult to break, yes, I firmly believe that is the harder of the two, than the physical. After all, the physical bonds do come off (unless someone kills you and then this is all a moot point).

But the mental and emotional bonds are the ones that last for years and people often post about asking how to get over emotional pain, even when they are not with the person anymore.

I have always trusted the people I was with, but there have been times in my longest relationship, where I was afraid physically and basically felt the kind of panic you read about when you think you might die. It is not a pretty thing, that feeling.

When these moments happened, I was able to communicate my distress, thankfully, in such a way that he stopped what he was doing and I freaked out and made sure he knew never to do that again. But it did make me trust him that much less moving forward and made me no longer want to be in physical bonds as much as before.

If someone is scaring you to the point of panic, you cannot stay with them. If you don't trust them anymore, you have to leave.

If you are in a position of bondage and you cannot get out, I would just try to communicate as calmly as possible the urgency of the situation, even if you have to lie.

And then decide if you ever really need to see someone who has made you feel that horrible.

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 5:40:51 AM   
Malkinius


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Greetings BitaTruble....

I have never been in that spot and I hope not to be the guy who puts someone in that spot but I have been in that direction before. That doesn't mean that like you, I have not read and thought and advised about it.

So...what do you do when you are in the "Oh Shit!" moment and you realize you got in WAY over your head and you are probably in a dangerous situation? I see two basic choices. You get out or you go through.

The get out is pretty obvious. You do everything in your power to get out and away. You get out of the restraints. You fight. You try to convince the person to let you go. You use a safeword if you have one and can use it and hope he honors it.

The second option is you go through with whatever is happening and hope and pray that the trust that got you there will be correct enough that you will survive it. Take what happens and if you were really that wrong about the person bide your time until you can get away and stay away. It could be that while you are getting mind fucked you are not really in danger. That fear is just part of what he is doing to you. In that case, you are pretty safe. Pissed off, but safe. If not, you still have option one to use when you can.

There is one thing that not everyone thinks of and probably more should in situations similar to this. That is the reverse psychology tactic of seeming to go along until the dominant relaxes enough and thinks that they have enough control to relax that control so you can get away. That may mean not only going along with something but pushing it further but in a direction you want or feel safer with.

It is an interesting topic and worth talking about. The good thing about doing it here is that most of the really bad abusers never read places like this. <grins> The most dangerous ones not only read but contribute and know all the right things to say and do and most of the time do them.

Be well.....

Malkinius


_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com    The goal is community.

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 5:53:42 AM   
CaringandReal


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This is an interesting issue. I'll address myself to the "some of the time" aspect. I think it is a rare occurrence in the first place and also, it tends to happen when you are very inexperiienced and move far too quickly. I think the vanilla woman doing a casual pickup at a bar might be more at risk, because she knows even less about the individual than an extended chat/online correspondence will give and because her judgement may be occluded by booze. In the majority of situations where you move too quickly, you will be Ok, because the majority of people are not disturbed enough to seriously hurt you. But they will hurt you some (unsually emotionally) and when that happens you are given the opportunity to learn to go slow. Some people get the hint right away, but I think most of us need several iterations of this before we become clued in to the importance of giving something time.

As for this happening to someone with a lot of experience (or a "jaded old bird"--as you put it--lol), well, it needs a lot of conditions to be just right for it to occur.

(1) You need a smooth operator, capable of and desiring to do major trickery for nefarious purposes. These people are really not that common.

(2) The person being fooled needs a vulnerability, a chink into which the fooler can get his hooks. While most individuals have such chinks, it's very hard to spot them in the limited, "directed in one direction" conversations we tend to have when getting to know a bdsm partner. Yes, good dominants are better at this spotting than most, but I think the ones who do this very well, are capable of suspending their egos and getting totally interested in/immersed in the submissive's reality. Empaths, in other words. Just how many psychopathic empaths have you met? They exist, but they are extremely rare. Most, I would think, would have considerably too much ego to understand a person so thoroughly that they quickly discovered their vulunerabilities--instead they settle on blinding someone with charm, attention, and flattery, and that technique works best on the inexperienced or self-dishonest personalities. The empath thing really does interfre with the psychopath thing: they are, in most people, opposing inclinations. But anyway, for spotting of vulnerabilities to occur quickly, you should range your conversation over a very broad spectrum of topics, almost randomly, as eventually, something you say, is going to hook them. That technique for discovering the chinks in someone's emotional armor takes considerable time. It is particularly hard to do online, where you are basically blind to feedback: you can't see the involuntary reactions to what you say, the momentary expressions, the slight muscle twiches or other body language. One exception to this "difficult to find chinks" rule: some people are not very bright amd sometimes remain naive, and with the ease of internet connections, many of them are online. These people make easy, if not particularly challenging targets. You don't exactly fall into that area, I'm afraid.

(3) Time is what the experienced tend to excel at: we're good at noticing problems or discrepancies over a period of time, and we usually insist that some time be taken before we are taken, so that if problems with the other person exist but are not immediately apparent, they will have time to emerge before an irrevokable decision or commitment is made. It's very hard to keep up a consistent act during frequent contact over long periods of time. I imagine the typical sybmissive who is sensitive to others would discover the predator's chinks long before he discovered hers, unless he accidentally stumbled upon a vulnerability right at the start. And it would have to be a very strong vulnerability for a person to exchange what they know about life and "how things work" for a flim-flam.

(4) Motive. The inexperienced are weak, easy targets. So why should a predator go to all the work of seducing someone who is much more careful and difficult to fool into a nightmare? Challenge? Perhaps, but seldom does someone pick out a random target, just for challenge's sake. To become a target you need to offer something attractive: overweening pride and arrogance that would make such cute sounds when stomped into the dust, perhaps? Or some other behavior, like hostility toward men, that pushes the predator's specific buttons. One motive might be money, but if you never talk about finances or if, when you do, if you are careful to talk about troubles alongside the finances, you are not going to make a particularly juicy target in that regard. Appearance is usually not a motive. It's sad to say, but, except for a handful of golden years, usually in the 30s or early 40s, when wisdom and attraction are almost perfectly balanced, most people who are wise enough to know better no longer need to worry about situations in which they must put that particular wisdom to use. There are people who are born wise, of course, but that's kind of off the subject. Now, there are these situations that crop up sometimes, usually online, where there is a powerful attraction between the two spirits. In those situations, there may be predatory motive, but there is also often an opposing motive: to please the other person, their friend whom they admire and whose contact, advise, etc. is so useful and enjoyable. If there was pure predatory motive, I suspect that someone old enough to know better would spot it long before it became an issue. There is only so much hollow, insincere flattery one can stomach, after all, without vomiting.

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"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 5:56:21 AM   
Kana


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Grins
I always thought that fuck,fuck,fuck thing formed a big chunk of what I do-the exhilaration and fear of riding out on the edge.
Grins again-Of course, that fuck,fuck,fuck can be the first, and smallest of many more to come, which can be a wild and wonderful thing.

2 quick comments
1-I think IB has it nailed. We all take risks in our lives. At some point, business, relationship, investing, friendship, we have to let go and take that leap of trust. In those situations, I tend to make my decisions based more on character than anything else, what kind of person are they, etc...
2-From a dominant POV, I have a few fairly set rules I use for first play, one of which is that I rarely tie or bind a gal that first time. I want her to have the safety net of being able to jump up and bolt if she feels the need-not that that's ever happened-laughs.
Bondage is for second play and up, when she knows I have experience and we know that some chemistry exists.

Edited to add that I really like writing fuck,fuck,fuck.


< Message edited by Kana -- 7/20/2010 6:01:19 AM >


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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 6:13:39 AM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


What you are speaking of does not only happen with a stranger or even a short term relationship; it can happen with someone you have spent years thinking you know. When you love someone and they start changing and becoming slightly dangerous, it is often very difficult to see that reality, since most of the time you are in love with what they were, or worse, the mask that you spoke of; a phantom who was never who you thought they were.


Some great posts so far.. I wanted to address this part of this post first because it reminded me of something I forgot to mention in the OP (albeit, it was already too long!)

The mask which is projected is often a mask that I *want* to see and that makes it easier to fool me. Mea culpa. I know that if I look long enough and hard enough, generally speaking, I do have the ability to discern the reality regardless of how clever someone is with their acting ability but I haven't always used that when it suited my own agenda. Sometimes it's because it wasn't that important to me or maybe I just wanted to get some kicks or whatever.. but most of those moments in my life, in retrospect, was someone whose mask was appealing and I didn't want to lift that mask because I was pretty sure I knew what I would find beneath it. I just wasn't interested in the reality when the fantasy of the image was so sexy and inviting. Twice though, that I recall, I was really fooled and could not pentrate the mask those two wore. One was no big thing, the other was something which changed my perceptions in a very basic and fundamental way so the experience was educational but painful as a lesson of self-discovery often can be.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 6:15:43 AM   
porcelaine


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I can honestly say that I've taken some chances in my lifetime that weren't very bright. Looking back I wonder how I escaped those situations without harm, but I finally put myself into a pickle where I came dangerously close to being hurt. Although it didn't involve BDSM, the ramifications altered my behavior significantly from that point on. The experience was actually preventative medicine in the long run. My naivete and risk taking were a very bad combination.

In our case we were young adults and like most doing one dumb thing is never enough. You pile them on until the whole structure threatens to topple. Our case of stupidity included meeting someone on the street that we didn't know. Although we had a man in our company, we went to this individual's home. And if that wasn't bad enough they decided it was the perfect night for pot and booze. If the three strikes rule applied this would be a whopper. Add in the time (well past 1am) and the fact we're in a neighborhood that is unfamiliar and not the place one would wish to walk around unescorted at that hour and you have a recipe for disaster.

The stupidity of my decision didn't register while we were having fun. It wasn't until everyone decided to crash for the night. I opted for the spare room and assumed I was going to sleep undisturbed. Needless to say I was wrong. Laying down made me realize something was slightly off, though I didn't get it at first. The strange gentleman entered the room to say goodnight and stood at the foot of the bed talking to me. Unfortunately my communication was inhibited and lifting my head took an otherworldly effort. I was extremely disoriented and couldn't move. This was a bad situation and my brain switched to autopilot in spite of the haze and room twirling that I experienced.

He repeatedly posed the same question asking if I desired company. The reality of my circumstances became crystal clear. I watched the clock on the wall and replied no thank you. It seemed like this went on for hours. I knew I was in over my head. My friends were passed out in the other room. I couldn't lift my body at all. And if he wanted to join me I didn't have an ounce of strength to fight him off. I prayed earnestly and kept my wits about me. In other words I faked and bluffed until he finally went away. But that went on for over and hour and keeping my fear and panic hidden took concerted effort. My saving grace was the dark room. I waited with baited breath hoping he wouldn't turn on the light. If he did he'd realize my condition and stop asking questions. Thankfully that didn't occur and he finally left me alone.

I couldn't rest until I knew he wouldn't return. After we departed the next day I made some promises to myself and haven't gone back on them since then. Oddly enough I didn't recollect my experience until a previous partner posed a question and then it all came flooding back. The consensus was that I was given something that created the disorientation I experienced. I suppose I pushed the incident to the back of my mind and repressed it because it was too traumatic for me to reconcile at the time. I can think of a few things that probably saved my neck that night, but it really boils down to the fact he made a choice not to force himself upon me. I suspect having a male in the household was another factor. I think it would have gone down much differently if he wasn't there.

~porcelaine


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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 6:20:03 AM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

So...what do you do when you are in the "Oh Shit!" moment and you realize you got in WAY over your head and you are probably in a dangerous situation? I see two basic choices. You get out or you go through.


This is very much along the lines of my own thinking on this topic. If there is nothing which can be done in the moment, you just have to try to get through. Sometimes all you can really do is wait and watch to see if there's an opening to dart through, whether it be it physical, mental or emotional. When you *know* you are being damaged, maybe go through but then get out at first opportunity and looking backwards only slows you down. That split second might be all it takes for them to grab you again.. so just keep going.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Malkinius)
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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 6:20:21 AM   
antinomy


Posts: 124
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

...You can fool all of the people some of the time. I fall into that catagory. I can be fooled, not easily, not often.. but on occasion either my gut or intellect fail me and I don't see who is really in front of me. I see only the image of what they have represented because there are some folks out there that can actually wear a mask hiding their true selves for a very, very long time...

So what do you do when you find yourself in that situation? When your gut and instinct have failed you and you are bound by someone who is dangerous to you? Besides physical restraints, there are mental and emotional restraints that are just as difficult (if not more so) to cast off so I am speaking asking about situations when you are already bound.. not what to do to prevent that from happening.



What an excellent post and an awesome question.  I think many people find themselves in one of these situations- at least once in their lifetime.   What do you do when you find you are bound to a person who is dangerous to you?  The very first step, I think is in acknowledging it.  A lot of people are in denial after it happens.  They don't want to face it, especially if it's mental and emotional pain that is being inflicted.  Recognizing it for what it is, and valuing yourself enough to know it's unhealthy is a great start.

I think that the next step, for me, would be to sit down and list what it is that is binding me to him.  If the restraints are not physical ones, they are there because I am still allowing them to be there.  Not saying they are not powerful, in some ways, they can be more binding than steel.  But, that's only because ~I~ have bestowed that magical quality in them.  I gave him that power to bind me emotionally, and I CAN take that power from him, too. 

You need to take a step back,  look at everything as impartially as you can.  While people will argue with me, this is not the time for you to be concerned with being submissive.  It's time for your fight or flight instincts to kick in.  Be smart about it, don't put yourself in danger- as he may not take kindly to the thought of losing something he considers his.  But, you need to value YOURSELF more than you value those bonds.  Once you do, they can't hold you anymore.

Sure, there will be obstacles.  It's not going to be easy- then again, life seldom is.  Figure out the practical stuff; what you need to be self sufficient for a while, how you can get there.  And believe that you CAN get there, because you CAN.  I have a quote from Winston Churchill on my profile.  The reason it's there is I have been in a similar place, and am still in the process of coming out the other side:

A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

Right now, it's hard to see anything other than the difficult situation you are in.  But, the opportunity is there, you just need to search for it, you need to MAKE things happen.  It's time to reclaim the power you have given this man.   He's no longer being responsible with it, hence he no longer deserves it.  Belief in yourself, and your RIGHT to be safe, are the surest ways to break those bonds.


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We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. Anais Nin

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 6:20:34 AM   
ourmsbetty


Posts: 266
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Good question.


Like anything else, I think what works will be different from person to person but this is what I did in a similar situation. It was not a BDSM scene. It was a pure assault, but this worked.

Stay calm. Do not show fear, but don't be angry or antagonistic either. Try to show no effect at all.

Try to talk him into letting you loose. Not just "please I want out", but a good practical reason. Something involving bodily functions is usually good.

If you do get loose the goal is delay, evade, escape. Do not think you can take on your attacker and win. All you want/need to do is keep him at arm's length long enough to get out the door.

Do not stop for clothes, keys, or possessions.  Barefoot and naked is better than well heeled and dead.

Do not go back for any reason.

Do call the police.

In the end though, none of this may work. You may not be able to slow him up enough to get away. You may not even succeed in getting him to let you loose.  It may very well be a case of having to have the prevention because there is no cure.

For those of you new to BDSM, this site, or believe there is no history to BDSM:

You may want to note that situations like the OP describes DO happen and that is why we have the safety protocols we do.

Yes everyone can be fooled. Things like negotiations, safe calls, safe words, etc are an extra layer of protection in case your instincts fail you.

Think of them like prophylactics; they are not fool proof but they are 99% effective when used properly.

There is no morning after pill for death.

One may never need to use a safe word, hopefully most people won't. I've never needed the fire extinguisher in my kitchen, either, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Ms. Betty




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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 6:28:25 AM   
lally2


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since becoming a single parent and most specifically Toms mum ive erred on the side of caution on his behalf - to be honest, if someone felt vaguely 'off' to me i just didnt go there. its why i do spend a fair amount of time getting to know a person through phone calls and through emails and chat before i ever meet.   a person can keep a facade up for a while, but if you can lull a person into being more who they are thats when you pick up on shit.

ive read how people insist on meeting up asap - ive never really agreed with that, but never said it so much.  the intensity of cyber and listening on the phone to how people speak, listen to you tells you a whole lot more about a person than some people give credit.

have to admit i keep my radar up and operational the whole time, but mostly for Tom. he has a right to expect his mum to stick around for a bit.  i have never had a fuck fuck fuck..... what have i done moment and i hope i never do.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 6:33:11 AM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ourmsbetty

Good question.


Stay calm. Do not show fear, but don't be angry or antagonistic either. Try to show no effect at all.





this:   has got me out of some fairly tricky situations in ordinary life once or twice.  but i would go on to say, that until youre completely comfortable with a person you should never agree to be tied up, ever.

i friend of mine once told me that he agreed to meet a sub in a hotel room, theyd never met before.  when he got there she'd padlocked herself to the basin in the bathroom and thrown the key far enough away that she couldnt reach it.  he said he spent about half an hour lecturing her on her stupidity.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to ourmsbetty)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 6:51:19 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


What you are speaking of does not only happen with a stranger or even a short term relationship; it can happen with someone you have spent years thinking you know. When you love someone and they start changing and becoming slightly dangerous, it is often very difficult to see that reality, since most of the time you are in love with what they were, or worse, the mask that you spoke of; a phantom who was never who you thought they were.


Some great posts so far.. I wanted to address this part of this post first because it reminded me of something I forgot to mention in the OP (albeit, it was already too long!)

The mask which is projected is often a mask that I *want* to see and that makes it easier to fool me. Mea culpa. I know that if I look long enough and hard enough, generally speaking, I do have the ability to discern the reality regardless of how clever someone is with their acting ability but I haven't always used that when it suited my own agenda. Sometimes it's because it wasn't that important to me or maybe I just wanted to get some kicks or whatever.. but most of those moments in my life, in retrospect, was someone whose mask was appealing and I didn't want to lift that mask because I was pretty sure I knew what I would find beneath it. I just wasn't interested in the reality when the fantasy of the image was so sexy and inviting. Twice though, that I recall, I was really fooled and could not pentrate the mask those two wore. One was no big thing, the other was something which changed my perceptions in a very basic and fundamental way so the experience was educational but painful as a lesson of self-discovery often can be.


I just wanted to say I totally agree with what you wrote. I always say that I know why I am doing it, just not how to totally stop what I am doing. I do believe we know 99% of the time that something is amiss, but go with it anyway for the reasons you elaborated on above, especially when you so want it to be a certain way.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 7:19:17 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline
Very cool topic. I have had more than a few experiences (some of them deliberate) that could have turned out badly but did not, due to cunning, timing, and fate. I will get back to this subject later..

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 7:39:40 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

In the majority of situations where you move too quickly, you will be Ok, because the majority of people are not disturbed enough to seriously hurt you. But they will hurt you some (unsually emotionally) and when that happens you are given the opportunity to learn to go slow. Some people get the hint right away, but I think most of us need several iterations of this before we become clued in to the importance of giving something time.


CaringandReal,

You've raised some excellent points in your remarks that remind me of conversations I've had with my Mentor concerning this subject, and trust me there have been several. The most important lesson she's drilled into my head that I still have trouble with on occasion is applying my standard to others. I always assume people have good intentions and that isn't always the case. I have to remind myself that an act I find repulsive may be perfectly acceptable to the other person. I've had my share of lumps and in terms of the Internet she's made her preference known. It took me a while to get it, not because I'm slow, but I didn't see my behavior from her perspective and when I finally did I made some necessary changes for the better.

quote:

(1) You need a smooth operator, capable of and desiring to do major trickery for nefarious purposes. These people are really not that common.


No they're not. The men I encounter are charismatic and capable of presenting things in a manner that sounds rational. For what it's worth I don't believe they're Ted Bundy, but I'm unwilling to test that theory. He appeared harmless and all it takes is one bad decision. He disarmed his victims through good looks, charm, intelligence, and a nonthreatening appearance that persuaded them to set aside their commonsense and trust a stranger. The latter is really the crux of this. Sometimes we forget that we're conversing with familiar strangers. I make mention of it as a reminder for myself and others.

quote:

(2) The person being fooled needs a vulnerability, a chink into which the fooler can get his hooks. While most individuals have such chinks, it's very hard to spot them in the limited, "directed in one direction" conversations we tend to have when getting to know a bdsm partner.


This is freaky weird. I had this discussion with a friend the other day. Gosh, talk about synergy! I believe people reveal too much about themselves, often unknowingly without determining the other persons intentions beforehand. Our discussion touched upon this subject and male attention overall to women in this realm. Some of the manipulative tricks border on the ridiculous and for the most part they assume the other person isn't any wiser. Maybe they're not, but when I spot it I don't always confront the person. I'm more of a neck and noose kind of girl. I let them hang themselves most times. As for the hook, no amount of coercion will bind me to a man I don't want to be attached to. I'm ever thankful that my selectivity renders most unappealing. I've had more than my share of people attempting to convince me that they are the 'better' option. Often the well meaning friendly sort.

quote:

(3) Time is what the experienced tend to excel at: we're good at noticing problems or discrepancies over a period of time, and we usually insist that some time be taken before we are taken, so that if problems with the other person exist but are not immediately apparent, they will have time to emerge before an irrevokable decision or commitment is made. It's very hard to keep up a consistent act during frequent contact over long periods of time.


I agree. Hurried situations give me pause especially if the individual is attempting to establish a presence in the other person's life rather fast. I don't believe most normal people can keep up a facade for a long time. This is also why I have severe reservations about not meeting someone relatively soon and those that like to drag things out are huge turnoff. Not because they may have bad intentions, but I'm aware that he prefers to seal the deal sight unseen and that's not realistic.

quote:

(4) Motive. The inexperienced are weak, easy targets. So why should a predator go to all the work of seducing someone who is much more careful and difficult to fool into a nightmare? Challenge? Perhaps, but seldom does someone pick out a random target, just for challenge's sake. To become a target you need to offer something attractive: overweening pride and arrogance that would make such cute sounds when stomped into the dust, perhaps?


Bingo! You're good. I don't need to elaborate. I'm sure you know where I'm going on this one. :)

quote:

Now, there are these situations that crop up sometimes, usually online, where there is a powerful attraction between the two spirits. In those situations, there may be predatory motive, but there is also often an opposing motive: to please the other person, their friend whom they admire and whose contact, advise, etc. is so useful and enjoyable. If there was pure predatory motive, I suspect that someone old enough to know better would spot it long before it became an issue. There is only so much hollow, insincere flattery one can stomach, after all, without vomiting.


Yep. Flattery doesn't impress me. In fact, if he does it too frequently I start wondering what's his angle. Mister Romeo would have been snatched up by now if he was gushing romance to that degree, so I consider why he's single and weigh the gains, impediments, etc.

In terms of the attraction mentioned, I think many times that's one-sided and one person's intentions may be completely opposite than the other. What makes it seemingly predatory is his willingness to disguise his real motives until he gains her trust. It can appear as if he's shifted or merely 'discovered' an interest as time wore on. I consider it a bait and switch in all truth. His presence as counselor or confidant is usually an information gathering session where everything disclosed will be used against the unsuspecting party to further his goal. The most common ploy is the benevolent nice guy who listens and offers refuge during a time of uncertainty. Vulnerability is easily spotted and is usually the catalyst behind unexpected expressions of assistance. The most important question anyone can posit is what the other person is getting out of it.

In the end I hold firm to the belief that captivation is a choice. In all the years I've been in this realm there's only one situation I can reference where I was sincerely mesmerized. But I willingly acknowledge my desire to be such and won't suggest I was manipulated into desiring him, but I'm not suggesting he's a paragon of innocence either. I believe there are chameleon like persons that are adept at feeding our fantasies and insecurities by morphing themselves into whatever the individual is lacking. The best way to combat this is to face your fears and recognize those vulnerable spots by protecting and addressing them head on.

~porcelaine



_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 7:48:14 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
Because I know I will be too trusting, this means I don't play casually. And I don't trust my instincts. I do if they're shrieking "Danger Will Robinson" but not if they say everything's fine.

Google the new person. Get a full check done on them. Use the tools that exist to double check, especially if you know you are easily fooled.

When I googled The Man, what popped up first was some arcane paper on electronics engineering. Which he then explained to me as best he could to turn it into plain English. Since you had to take out membership in the engineering organization to read the whole paper, this said he really was this person, he really was known to the organization and he really worked where he said he did.

Was it perfect? No. But it was verification that he hadn't yet lied to me. Trust but verify.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Fuck, fuck, fuck.. what have I done? - 7/20/2010 7:48:25 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
It's a very tricky subject. There is little to add at this point of the conversation.

It does touch on juju's thread where she was clearly manipulated by her ex Dom. The urge to please and go along with the flow can be a very detrimental mindset when one finds themselves in this sort of a horrible predicament.

That being said it is hard to offer up the exact advice one should implement when facing such immediate and dire circumstances. I don't like the advice of or "you go through."
Not sure if that shows willingness or increases your odds of survival.

Patience and time are the only remedies that are on your side. I know that is not necessarily how we do biz out here. So you really have to rely on your inner compass to steer you away from danger and hope for the best. Everything else is up for conjecture about what should transpire after your inner compass has failed you.

As ourmsbetty alluded, you just have to get the fuck out of there by any means possible. To stay means that you are going to endure some damage if not something much worse.

_____________________________



(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 20
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