The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 11:39:18 AM)

panic indeed




Jeffff -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 11:46:29 AM)

I have long felt it was time for that.

The electoral college, is an idea who's time is past.

I live in Illinois. Illinois is going to go Democrat no matter what. It is indeed a wasted vote if you vote republican here. Those votes SHOULD count.




BoiJen -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 11:57:07 AM)

Yay! Moves toward a popular vote election would make me happy as a fuckin clam cuz ya know what? I'm tired of someone else voting for me!

I want my own damn vote to count.

boi




flcouple2009 -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 11:59:38 AM)

They can pass whatever they wish.  I don't think the states get to makeup how their votes are counted in the national election.  Isn't this pretty much just a waster of paper from the State of MA?




mnottertail -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:03:37 PM)

Sorta like the Arizona law, which was good, because its republican, but MA bad because its democratic.

Well, whats needed is federal constitutional changes to amend that electoral college shit outta existence.

And why is that a Dem thing?   Are you intimating that Republicans couldnt win a national popular vote?




Archer -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:05:23 PM)

Really this is not a circumvention of the Constitution.

The Constitution does not tell any state how they will select their electoral votes.
Legally and strictly by the constitution Maine could drop 12 bowling balls from a 747 flying around the state and whoever those landed closest to would cast the electoral vote.

The problem with the popular vote thing is that it will concentrate all the presidential power in just the cities, so we will have another round of regionalism even more divisive than it was when it resulted in Andrew Jackson being elected.

Are we ready to have that again?






Jeffff -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:06:14 PM)

Not without the help of the USSC.




Archer -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:10:54 PM)

Prepare for the candidates to ignore half the country, campaign on the coasts and in the midwest.
California, Texas, Illinois, NY, PA, FL, OH, IN, the rest of you states can kiss your influence goodbye

If your state doesn't currently have 15 electoral votes or more you won't be worth even a stop over visit.




Archer -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:17:37 PM)

Now lets see how this allegation of unconstitutional holds up against The Constitution of the United States of America?

Article 2 section 1

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress:..."




Jeffff -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:43:26 PM)

I agree the MA. law means nothing.

I understand your point on a popular vote. I am not convinced that more people would vote if every vote actuallly counted at the time it was cast.

There are quite a few people who don't live in New York, Chicago or L.A.





flcouple2009 -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:50:28 PM)

Archer,

They can allocate the electoral votes however they wish.  I don't believe they can just opt out  which is what they are voting for.




Archer -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:53:45 PM)

jeff if I have X hours to spend pressing the flesh and campaigning, am I going to spend it in a city where I might get 2 million votes or in one where I might get 200,000 votes?

The electoral college was designed to force candidates to campaign in all parts of the country. It was designed as one of the checks and balances of power.
a check against the tyranny of the majority. I know Mel Gibson is out of favor but the quote from hin in The Patriot applies here "why should I trade 1 tyrannt 3000 miles away for 3,000 tyrannts 1 mile away?" the Founding fathers feared too much democracy. 




Archer -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 12:56:47 PM)

flcouple

you didn't read what I read then because what I read said Maine was putting forth a law that said that whoever won the national popular vote would get the 12 electoral votes from Maine. (The Legislature of Maine decided that their electoral votes would go to whoever won the national popular vote) perfectly valid according to the Constitution.






Jeffff -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 1:12:21 PM)

In this age pressing the flesh is less valuble than it was. Television plays a huge part.

Illinois has as of 2000, 12,419,293 people and 24 eletoral votes.
Indiana has 6,080,485 and 11 electoral votes.

If 5 milion people in IN. vote Republican, it goes Rep.
If the same number vote Rep. in Il. it goes Dem.

Yes that is an over simplification but it might be possible a popular vote actually carries the wishes of the country better.

We have a popular election for govenor in Il. There are 6 million people in the CHicago area. Chicago is a democratic strong hold, yet we have recently elected republican govenors.

I am not married to the idea of a popular vote, but I think it is worth exploring.




Archer -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 1:21:55 PM)

I'm not arguing that the R vs D thing is a problem, politicians will shift their tactics to fit whatever game rules we set.

My argument is that you marginialize ALL the rural people, and focus all the power into the cities, cities have very different problems than rural areas and if you take all the power and concentrate it into the cities you're going to have policies that favor the city classes over the rural classes. That is a dangerous precedent.




flcouple2009 -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 1:25:14 PM)

Maine?  The article I was reading is about MA.

"Critics say the current system is not broken. They also point to the disturbing scenario that Candidate X wins nationally, but Candidate Y has won in Massachusetts. In that case, all of the state's 12 electoral votes would go to Candidate X, the candidate who was not supported by Massachusetts voters."

It doesn't say anything about the State of MA, making that part of the bill.  It only list that the national winner would get the votes.




joether -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 1:25:31 PM)

Being a Masshole, I think I can weigh in on this better then any of you!

The concept originates from the fact that neither Democrats nor Republicans come to Massachusetts. The commonwealth is heavily Democrat, and the voters tend not to tolerate ignorant people (we are in the upper 5 states for education).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
The electoral college, is an idea who's time is past.


Yes, as Al Gore did indeed win the popular vote back in 2000. How many Republicans would have liked that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
I want my own damn vote to count.


Since this is in Massachusetts, and your not a Mass resident. It is safe to say, your vote still wouldn't count in the commonwealth. Now Florida, is different...

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
Isn't this pretty much just a waster of paper from the State of MA?


1) We dont waste paper here, we recycle.
2) We are a Commonwealth (one of four), not a state. But, in the interest of the other 46 states, we allow being called a 'state'.....sometimes. The other three states are: Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Sorta like the Arizona law, which was good, because its republican...


No, bad, because Arizona has to defend its law against the wave of lawsuits from various groups, one police officer in AZ, and the D.O.J. Not to mention when private citizens, whom are hispanic, are charged for being in the country illegally by bigot cops. I personally see that law as a violation of the 4th and 5th Amendment rights.

But hey, Arizona will be paying huge legal bills, which should be an incentive to other states, not to devise a law like it in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Legally and strictly by the constitution Maine could drop 12 bowling balls from a 747 flying around the state and whoever those landed closest to would cast the electoral vote.


I'm sure Boeing, Inc, and bowling ball manufactors would enjoy free goverment handouts at the taxpayer's expense. But then, doesn't Maine already have alot of potholes? Seriously, I believe Maine set up to allow its 5 Electorial Votes to be divided, based on how regions of the state voted. Don't quote me on that!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Prepare for the candidates to ignore half the country, campaign on the coasts and in the midwest. California, Texas, Illinois, NY, PA, FL, OH, IN, the rest of you states can kiss your influence goodbye


The candidates already ignore half the country, currently. The 2008 was a bit abnormal, as the Democratic contender was born in Hawaii, and the Republican V.P. came from Alaska. Two states that NEVER, see either party campaigning. With the popular vote, the swing goes, as you said, to where its important: Where I live!

As to whether it is allowed under the Constitution, is unsure. Once it is voted on and approved by the govenor (Gov. Deval Patrick-D), the real action starts. It could be challenged in courts (and will be, given Republicans in MA). If it was indeed knocked down in court, that would mean the old 'reliable', Electoral College remains in place.




Archer -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 1:27:55 PM)

Mass Maine who cares LOL

Quote from the article

"Under the proposed law, all 12 of the state's electoral votes would be awarded to the candidate who receives the most votes nationally."


The article starts with

"Only one final vote remains in the state Senate before the Legislature sends a new law to the governor's desk that is intended to bypass the Electoral College system and ensure that the winner of the presidential election is determined by the national popular vote."

Looks like the Legislature of MA Voted on the bill and that the Senate of MA is one vote short of passing it and sending it to the Governor to be signed into a LAW.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 3:06:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

They can pass whatever they wish.  I don't think the states get to makeup how their votes are counted in the national election.  Isn't this pretty much just a waster of paper from the State of MA?


No. While the intent of the electoral system is clear, the actual language of the 12th (?) amendment probably gives the individual states the ability to do this.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The path to Dem victory in 2012...circumvent the Constitution (7/21/2010 3:07:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Really this is not a circumvention of the Constitution.

The Constitution does not tell any state how they will select their electoral votes.
Legally and strictly by the constitution Maine could drop 12 bowling balls from a 747 flying around the state and whoever those landed closest to would cast the electoral vote.

The problem with the popular vote thing is that it will concentrate all the presidential power in just the cities, so we will have another round of regionalism even more divisive than it was when it resulted in Andrew Jackson being elected.

Are we ready to have that again?





I agree, except that it is circumventing the intent of the electoral system, albeit not the language.




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