RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias

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porcelaine -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 11:06:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I think you're right: people always have multiple motivations. When you get group-action - like corporate philanthropy - we'll be talking about vast numbers of motivations. Added to that will be a motivation that's common to the whole group - 'the whole being more than the sum of the parts'. What that is will vary a great deal from one group to the other. They often do and there may be one or two driving forces. It can be a personal experience, family legacy, corporate influence, social outcry, and so on. While there can be traces of each, there is usually one big factor that stands out. It will be the 'why' behind their actions and the thing that inspires them to persevere. This is my etching and it can be manifested in a lot of ways. I've been recollecting on that recently and realizing there are other ways to serve. Sometimes I'm apt to forget. quote: ORIGINAL: Dragonswhore Among the men who have daughters, I have noticed a trend. I will usually broach the subject of if they consider their daughter more dominant or submissive. Every single one of them has answered dominant, there was no way their daughter was submissive. My father had a similar reaction when he learned about my submission but it wasn't negative. He simply said I'd need a very adept man to handle me. Then he laughed and smiled knowingly. As a child he instilled the necessity of leading rather than walking behind others. He never looked down on my choice but I think he wondered if I'd be happy in the long run. ~porcelaine

realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 11:27:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dragonswhore I was wondering something from a conversation I had not long ago. I have talked to several dominant men, and I am only saying what was said in those conversations, not making a blanket statement about all men, be they dominant or not. Among the men who have daughters, I have noticed a trend. I will usually broach the subject of if they consider their daughter more dominant or submissive. Every single one of them has answered dominant, there was no way their daughter was submissive. It sort of showed me their opinion of subs and slaves both. It's good enough for you, but there is no way I would let my daughter stoop that low. I tell them that I am someones daughter also, and a woman..I was probably both of those before I ever thought of being a slave to anyone. I have nothing against being a dominant woman, or wanting you daughter to be one also..I guess my thoughts are why if you look so much down upon them, would I consider belonging to you? Just my 2 cents and probably not worth that...thoughts I have had rolling around Good point.. I sort of feel most men in general have issues with women...it's hard to explain or understand..but there's always that feeling that no matter what a woman does or how she acts, somewhere someone is going to figure out a reason to react negatively just because she's a woman..there's alot of negativity towards women out there, it can be hidden, but even the good guys often have their issues with us.

solestria -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/27/2010 3:08:03 AM)
Elisabella: I don't think you understand how "privilege" is used in this context. There's a good discussion of that here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/ "Privilege is: About how society accommodates you. It’s about advantages you have that you think are normal. It’s about you being normal, and others being the deviation from normal. It’s about fate dealing from the bottom of the deck on your behalf." You might also do well to read the "Don't women have female privilege?" link here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/ "Female privilege" is the flip-side of sexism. You list, for instance, "I am able to use flirtation to my advantage in situations where I deal with men.". Why does this work? Because of the position women are placed into in a society that views them as able to offer largely beauty and the like; it's based on superficial qualities. That's not where I want my value as a person to be decided upon, yet that's often how that's viewed for women in this culture. How is that privilege, exactly? "I have an issue with these because it goes by the assumption that traditionally male roles are the ones that should be aspired to, that being able to be in a male role without question is a "privilege" and being able to be in a female role without question is "oppression" " No; for me, it's the idea that there ARE "male roles" and "female roles", and that just because I am a woman, I am slotted into "female roles" that are also less valued by society. I'd love for society to more toward egalitarianism, where roles are divided based on who wants to do what, where gender is irrelevant to that discussion. We're definitely not there yet.

splorff -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/27/2010 3:09:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin Well, it depends on your definition on feminism. To me, feminism is the equality of all sexes to one another One day maybe, these feminists and masculine-ists will jump off their respective buses and become humanists. I cant wait for the gender-war to end

splorff -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/27/2010 3:17:01 AM)
Great post ! quote: ORIGINAL: solestria Elisabella: I don't think you understand how "privilege" is used in this context. There's a good discussion of that here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/ "Privilege is: About how society accommodates you. It’s about advantages you have that you think are normal. It’s about you being normal, and others being the deviation from normal. It’s about fate dealing from the bottom of the deck on your behalf." You might also do well to read the "Don't women have female privilege?" link here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/ "Female privilege" is the flip-side of sexism. You list, for instance, "I am able to use flirtation to my advantage in situations where I deal with men.". Why does this work? Because of the position women are placed into in a society that views them as able to offer largely beauty and the like; it's based on superficial qualities. That's not where I want my value as a person to be decided upon, yet that's often how that's viewed for women in this culture. How is that privilege, exactly? "I have an issue with these because it goes by the assumption that traditionally male roles are the ones that should be aspired to, that being able to be in a male role without question is a "privilege" and being able to be in a female role without question is "oppression" " No; for me, it's the idea that there ARE "male roles" and "female roles", and that just because I am a woman, I am slotted into "female roles" that are also less valued by society. I'd love for society to more toward egalitarianism, where roles are divided based on who wants to do what, where gender is irrelevant to that discussion. We're definitely not there yet.

PeonForHer -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/27/2010 4:20:23 AM)
I'll second Splorff. Great post - and some excellent links.

porcelaine -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/27/2010 5:54:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solestria "Privilege is: About how society accommodates you. *It’s about advantages you have that you think are normal.* It’s about you being normal, and others being the deviation from normal. It’s about fate dealing from the bottom of the deck on your behalf." Spot on. quote: How is that privilege, exactly? In my opinion it isn't privilege unless she's getting a big bump because of it. Did that land her a job or is she on the arm of someone that is providing for her significantly? In fact the latter is viewpoint most would look at it from. And that's another subject altogether. quote: No; for me, it's the idea that there ARE "male roles" and "female roles", and that just because I am a woman, I am slotted into "female roles" that are also less valued by society. I'd love for society to more toward egalitarianism, where roles are divided based on who wants to do what, where gender is irrelevant to that discussion. We're definitely not there yet. Men have entered nursing and have become quite the commodity. Although the role was traditionally "female" oriented, the demand for male nurses is far higher than their counterpart. ~porcelaine

IronBear -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/27/2010 7:53:47 AM)
There are privileges which society grant you (Such as when I reach 65 in a month's time I get free Flue vaccinations. Being disabled, I get parking reserved for disabled folks in public areas). There are many more I know. Society here also in effect grants juveniles (under 17) freedom from police attention (in reality police locally are told to back off from being involved with juvenile or ethnic gang crimes unless there are sufficient witness and to do nothing will get bad PR for police (This is the orders from the police PR people). Privilege allowed the courts to allow a particular juvenile out on bail whilst facing 150 serious criminal charges including a number of robberies (inc armed robbery), rape and attempted murder of a police officer. The little bastard stole my brand new corvette and trashed it. He later dies of a heroin OD.. Under law he was considered to be a privileges minority. Then there are privileges awarded to some for things they have done. On formal, I.E. state occasions these folk may have many privileges accorded to them which they ordinarily would not have. Often these folk have been awarded civil or military honours. Of course there are the traditional privileges given to what used to be the Landed gentry and Aristocrats. In the bad old days it was a given that one such could bed a female servant without legal recourse and so on. Much of this has been changed which is a ngood thing but some still; are granted such privilages of being able to attend afternoon tea at the palace if they choose with out a specific summons and certainly their path to meet Her Majesty is by far shorter than would be for the normal person. Even here after Australia altered the law allowing the polulace to appedal criminal sentences and some civil rulings first to the House of Lords and secondly to the Privy Council, there are a few who retain that privilege because of right of birth. I can't think of a case where this has been done though. So privileges are not all cut and dried. I believe in privileges and a privileged society. But the down side is the abuse of those privileges given which in the most is reprehensible. A woman may feel that she is privileged should I take her to dinner and perhaps the ballet or opera, yet I believe it is my duty and her right perhaps I am privileged to enjoy her company.. I enjoy a good tryst with a lass in the bed, even though I may have taken her and as a slave she had little choice in the matter, she may even feel it was a privilege that I wanted her. Yet in every case when I have bedded a woman of my choice and whom I cared for, I have always felt it was a privilege for me to haver shared her body so freely given.

jujubeeMB -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/27/2010 12:56:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Madame4a quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB They "act like men" in that we have ingrained in our heads that "being a man" is synonymous with confidence, assertiveness, aggressiveness, self-esteem, power and so on. But for them it's not an act - those are their inherent traits. If we'll allow for lesbians to be more typically "masculine" in nature, why won't we allow it for straight women too? I have to apologize first for taking this out of context, but I reread this whole post a few times, came back to it and finally today decided that I wanted to repond to this part... firstly, I have some trouble with the "act like men" stereotype -- first because it is one and I don't fit it in any way... and neither do many people I know.. the other problem I have is that being confident, assertive and/or agressive .. or have self esteem or power is some how only something a man is.. or are inherently male traits... ? Perhaps you meant this is all as an example.. but from your post, I got that you seemed to think it to be true? I hate to keep pulling the straight v. gay card... but ultimately this seems like some kind of problem over all in the male dominant, female submissive hetero community... Perhaps I'm completely wrong... You are taking it completely out of context. My only reference was MY moms - not lesbians in general. However, the straight community seems content to accept lesbians "acting like men" (and I use that term with quite a bit of derision, since I don't see it that way at all) where they don't accept straight women with those masculine traits. I believe I've said six or seven different ways in this thread that I'm violently against generalizations - I didn't and I wouldn't make a generalization about lesbians. Re-read what I said and you'll see that.

Elisabella -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/27/2010 11:25:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solestria Elisabella: I don't think you understand how "privilege" is used in this context. There's a good discussion of that here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/ "Privilege is: About how society accommodates you. It’s about advantages you have that you think are normal. It’s about you being normal, and others being the deviation from normal. It’s about fate dealing from the bottom of the deck on your behalf." Right and like I was saying there are many ways society accommodates me as a woman. Sometimes in ways that it doesn't accommodate men. And I consider those things that work in my favor to be privileges. quote: You might also do well to read the "Don't women have female privilege?" link here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/ "Female privilege" is the flip-side of sexism. You list, for instance, "I am able to use flirtation to my advantage in situations where I deal with men.". Why does this work? Because of the position women are placed into in a society that views them as able to offer largely beauty and the like; it's based on superficial qualities. That's not where I want my value as a person to be decided upon, yet that's often how that's viewed for women in this culture. How is that privilege, exactly? Good flirtation isn't just about being beautiful, it's a game of wits. In a way it's using my intelligence to get ahead in the world. And it doesn't work because of the"position women are placed in" it works because men have a soft spot when it comes to women. Even gay guys, but in a different way from het guys. quote: "I have an issue with these because it goes by the assumption that traditionally male roles are the ones that should be aspired to, that being able to be in a male role without question is a "privilege" and being able to be in a female role without question is "oppression" " No; for me, it's the idea that there ARE "male roles" and "female roles", and that just because I am a woman, I am slotted into "female roles" that are also less valued by society. I'd love for society to more toward egalitarianism, where roles are divided based on who wants to do what, where gender is irrelevant to that discussion. We're definitely not there yet. I'm all about people doing what they feel drawn to do. People are unique, not a set of stereotyped characteristics. Notice how I said "people" and not "women." When I say "female roles" I don't mean things that only women should do (obviously excluding something like nursing) but roles that are typically feminine. Like if we were cavemen mothering would be a female role because of pregnancy and milk and stuff and hunting and war would be male roles because of upper body strength etc. It doesn't matter who performs the action, the things are still "feminine" and "masculine" in nature. I don't think female roles should be less valued than male roles in society but it does seem to be that way, there are more women trying to push into traditionally male areas than men trying to push into traditionally female areas. I'm curious, can I ask you 2 things? 1. Would your ideal egalitarian society be more androgynous in nature than society right now? 2. Taking the list of "male privilege" into account, if you were able to choose to be a man (either turn into one today or have been born one) would you and why or why not?

porcelaine -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 6:48:09 AM)
I've thoroughly enjoyed all the feedback on this thread and sincerely appreciate your participation. It's been very educational and I would like to explore the subject in depth with my daughter since she's at an age where these things will come into play in the near future. If possible, please share your favorite resources on the subject of feminism or writings against it as well. Also, any websites that you find noteworthy would be helpful. Thank you in advance. ~porcelaine

Violentseternal -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 1:39:53 PM)
Seriously, this is a constant issue of mine.. on different sides in some cases i have never had female friends (one or two exceptions who werent in my life for long) though i have had female submissives that i had collared, and thats a completely different situation.. in those ways i love women, but women who 'know their place' i cant stand the women that think they are stronger or better than men..or that they can do everything a man can..that kind of thinking just irritates me to no end. men and women were not made to equal one another or better one another, but to compliment each other..to work together..hence being built so different. i find the majority of females to be 2 faced, petty, catty and far too easy to offend, and being friends with men for years and few females, i see how the men get treated by these types. of course there are exceptions, but im talking the majority, not the minority.

LaTigresse -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 1:41:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Violentseternal Seriously, this is a constant issue of mine.. on different sides in some cases i have never had female friends (one or two exceptions who werent in my life for long) though i have had female submissives that i had collared, and thats a completely different situation.. in those ways i love women, but women who 'know their place' i cant stand the women that think they are stronger or better than men..or that they can do everything a man can..that kind of thinking just irritates me to no end. men and women were not made to equal one another or better one another, but to compliment each other..to work together..hence being built so different. i find the majority of females to be 2 faced, petty, catty and far too easy to offend, and being friends with men for years and few females, i see how the men get treated by these types. of course there are exceptions, but im talking the majority, not the minority. Bless your heart.

dbloomer -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 2:19:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: Violentseternal Seriously, this is a constant issue of mine.. on different sides in some cases i have never had female friends (one or two exceptions who werent in my life for long) though i have had female submissives that i had collared, and thats a completely different situation.. in those ways i love women, but women who 'know their place' i cant stand the women that think they are stronger or better than men..or that they can do everything a man can..that kind of thinking just irritates me to no end. men and women were not made to equal one another or better one another, but to compliment each other..to work together..hence being built so different. i find the majority of females to be 2 faced, petty, catty and far too easy to offend, and being friends with men for years and few females, i see how the men get treated by these types. of course there are exceptions, but im talking the majority, not the minority. Bless your heart. It would be refreshing if you could acknowledge the good points he made instead of just getting hung up on his vernacular. I'm all for equal rights between men and women. I'm not for forcing women in to roles that are better suited for men, nor am I for pushing men in to roles that are better suited for women. Nor am I for women who want equality when it is advantageous but want to "embrace their femininity" when it's favorable for them: For example, women want me to pay for dinner. They're more than happy to toss equality to the wayside when it suits their interests. I personally like paying for dinner for a woman. I don't want my date to be a vessel of masculinity necessarily. I want her to be feminine and willing to let me provide for her. Nor am I for women who feel free to use the advantage of their sexuality to gain favors and manipulate. I make no destinction between this and a man using his own innate physical advantage to take what he wants from a woman. i cant stand the women that think they are stronger or better than men..or that they can do everything a man can..that kind of thinking just irritates me to no end. men and women were not made to equal one another or better one another, but to compliment each other..to work together..hence being built so different. The above is pretty much the only enlightened opinion I've read on this thread so far. Men and women are like apples and oranges, neither are better or worse, but if you put the two together you're going to have a healthy meal.

LaTigresse -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 2:39:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbloomer It would be refreshing if you could acknowledge the good points he made instead of just getting hung up on his vernacular. I'm all for equal rights between men and women. I'm not for forcing women in to roles that are better suited for men, nor am I for pushing men in to roles that are better suited for women. Nor am I for women who want equality when it is advantageous but want to "embrace their femininity" when it's favorable for them: For example, women want me to pay for dinner. They're more than happy to toss equality to the wayside when it suits their interests. I personally like paying for dinner for a woman. I don't want my date to be a vessel of masculinity necessarily. I want her to be feminine and willing to let me provide for her. Nor am I for women who feel free to use the advantage of their sexuality to gain favors and manipulate. I make no destinction between this and a man using his own innate physical advantage to take what he wants from a woman. i cant stand the women that think they are stronger or better than men..or that they can do everything a man can..that kind of thinking just irritates me to no end. men and women were not made to equal one another or better one another, but to compliment each other..to work together..hence being built so different. The above is pretty much the only enlightened opinion I've read on this thread so far. Men and women are like apples and oranges, neither are better or worse, but if you put the two together you're going to have a healthy meal. It would be refreshing if people did not make broad generalizations also. However I doubt I will ever find myself that refreshed. Not ALL women behave or feel as you dislike, or will feel or behave as you would like. Neither makes one more right or wrong than the other. You are simply stating YOUR personal preferences. The error is expecting your personal preferences to be a standard of behaviour. Men and women are not like apples and oranges. One woman may be an orange, another a peach, yet another a fucking Bing cherry. I personally might prefer the peach whereas you prefer the orange. I do not expect all women to behave just like my peach, in fact I do not WANT it that way. I want women to have the right to be peaches, cherries, oranges, whatever their individual fruit type might be. If all men wanted to be apples, how boring and frustrating that would be for you, just another apple. No one would stand out. Hetro women would have even more to choose from........IF they all wanted apples. Fortunately for me, some actually prefer women that prefer peaches and find apples over bearing and boring.

Jeffff -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 2:41:43 PM)
And I think it is far to late to consider your cherries. Love Ward

LaTigresse -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 2:43:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff And I think it is far to late to consider your cherries. Love Ward Correctamundo. My cherries long ago, dried up and turned to dust. Is there such a thing as cherraisins? I have however, had a lot of fun with a few peaches over the years. The apples, not so much so.

Jeffff -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 2:44:34 PM)
If there was, you would have them!

dbloomer -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 2:44:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB I'll give you a specific problem to the "women and men are just different and complement one another" argument. I have two moms, and they are both very much women, but they have a complete assortment of masculine and feminine traits that cover the gamut of what gender roles typically assign to families. They share decisions, responsibilities, raising a kid (well, in the past tense - obviously I'm an adult now) and everything else. No one is "typical," no one is uncomfortable with their responsibilities. They're just adults, happily, assertively, proudly living their lives. There is nothing on this green earth that a man could do in their relationship that they don't already cover. Lots of men are startled by how confident they are, actually, and how they don't smile and apologize the way women are trained from birth to do. They "act like men" in that we have ingrained in our heads that "being a man" is synonymous with confidence, assertiveness, aggressiveness, self-esteem, power and so on. But for them it's not an act - those are their inherent traits. I find the notion of using a lesbian relationship as a pivot-point for your argument about men and women interacting together as two parts of a whole hilarious. I can't help but wonder if you've got a baised view being the child of two moms. Yes, some women are masculine and some men are feminine, especially now, in this day and age where men don't have to utilize their survival skills to survive. We're allowed to deviate much further from natural design now, when virtually ANYONE can tend to their own needs, no matter what their physical or mental status is (dominant or submissive). In nature, the role of a masculine and feminine person coming together makes a lot of sense. If you're a 110 pound woman, it doesn't matter how "dominant" your personality is if you live in the wild and can't fend off an attack from a 500 pound bear who will eat you. We have to look to nature for our models on how the world works, because nature has been around a lot longer than us and it has it's shit together.

LaTigresse -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/28/2010 2:47:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dbloomer Yes, some women are masculine and some men are feminine, especially now, in this day and age where men don't have to utilize their survival skills to survive. We're allowed to deviate much further from natural design now, when virtually ANYONE can tend to their own needs, no matter what their physical or mental status is (dominant or submissive). In nature, the role of a masculine and feminine person coming together makes a lot of sense. If you're a 110 pound woman, it doesn't matter how "dominant" your personality is if you live in the wild and can't fend off an attack from a 500 pound bear who will eat you. We have to look to nature for our models on how the world works, because nature has been around a lot longer than us and it has it's shit together. I am quite curious. How would a 165# man fend off a 500# bear, that would like to eat him, any more skillfully than the 110# woman?

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