RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

PeonForHer -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:07:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

OK.  I wouldn't have wanted to use the Disraeli example to focus exclusively on wealth, or even on wealth and power.  However, I did mean to use that example to convey the idea of equality of outcome ('sharing the bounty') rather than equality of opportunity ('levelling the playing field').


Then how would you explain corporate philanthropy? Would the support of women's causes mean they're feminists as well? What about organizations benefiting minorities? Are they pro-affirmative action too? I'm not disputing your theories and I think you have presented them quite well. However, I am introducing a different way of addressing a problem. Things aren't always black and white and you cannot determine a person's motivations for their actions. No matter how many labels we create or attempt to affix.


porcelaine - Yourscum, too,

I don't use these terms as exclusive, catch-all groups.   That would be way too crude.  I doubt that anyone is a feminist and nothing else, any more than he or she will be a motorist, and nothing else. 

Say I see a woman being beaten up by a policeman.   I have a socialist impulse which makes me object to the powerful taking advantage of the weak.  I have a feminist impulse which makes me resent the fact this woman is suffering an old kind of gender-oppression.  I have an anarchist sort of impulse which makes me instantly suspicious of any and all authority.  I also have a conservative impulse which will make me see this as ungentlemanly and lacking in respect for traditional standards of behaviour.  Underneath all of that, I have enough philanthropism in me to make me think, simply: people shouldn't suffer and I want to do good, here.  If anyone else intervened to prevent the assault, I'd ascribe different sorts of motivations, and proportions of those motivations, depending on what I knew about them.

I think you're right: people always have multiple motivations.  When you get group-action - like corporate philanthropy - we'll be talking about vast numbers of motivations.  Added to that will be a motivation that's common to the whole group - 'the whole being more than the sum of the parts'.  What that is will vary a great deal from one group to the other.



Elisabella -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:08:21 PM)

Someone needs to make a female privilege checklist.

I'll start.

1. If I want to quit my job to raise my kids nobody will say it makes me less of a woman.

2. If I help create a child and don't want to be a parent I am able to delete the baby regardless of what the other parent wants.

3. If I choose not to risk my body pursuing sex outside of a relationship nobody will question my sexuality or imply I'm not a real woman.

4. Unskilled labor typically filled by my gender is safer than unskilled labor typically filled by male applicants.

5. When I go on dates I expect to be courted rather than to do the courting

6. My gender has a longer lifespan than the male gender

7. If I commit a crime I am more likely to get a lenient sentence because of social attitudes that women aren't really capable of doing bad things

8. I am able to use flirtation to my advantage in situations where I deal with men.

I <3 my female privileges. I'll try to think of a few more but other people can add to them.



solestria -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:09:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: solestria

Do men really have unequal opportunity for college? 


Boiled down men can only play soccer, football, and baseball at any given university. Women on the other hand have soccer, rowing, softball, field hockey, volleyball, etc. Sure, men can get club sports for such things but they don't have the support or opportunity to compete that woman's teams with university backing have.


The claim from Yourscum was that men are now in the minority of college students in general, and wasn't specifically related to sports at all. 

As to sports: At the college I attended, liberal though it was, men had access to a number of sports, including several that weren't offered to women.  Zenny, do you have any sources to back up the idea that men have lesser sports opportunity to women?



porcelaine -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:09:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: solestria

Do men really have unequal opportunity for college? 


Boiled down men can only play soccer, football, and baseball at any given university. Women on the other hand have soccer, rowing, softball, field hockey, volleyball, etc. Sure, men can get club sports for such things but they don't have the support or opportunity to compete that woman's teams with university backing have.


There are male and female crew teams. However, it is an NCAA sport for women only. I can't speak for the other activities with certainty.

~porcelaine



Yourscum -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:10:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solestria


It's because men are still privileged over women
Because male privilege is systemic, and women do not have equality of opportunity yet, feminists focus on this disparity.


It doesn't matter to the definition of equality. The fact remains, you can't fight for one gender, ignore the inequality the other is having because there's more on the other side, and call it equality. That is NOT equality.

quote:

I'm not sure why that doesn't make sense to you; feminists are generally concerned with equality


I'm sorry but nothing you've wrote or provided has supported that assertion.

quote:

Title 9 itself makes no direct mention of sports, but it is the impact of Title 9 on men's sports that has been the primary focus of conversation.


Not my conversation. I never said anything about sports, other than in repsonce to your assertion concerning it. It seems that your simply trying to distract from the subject at hand, which is that feminists don't fight for equality, only women's rights. And you just made an excuse, a very poor one, in regards to the actual point. When women needed help feminists pushed for legislation that did so, and now that men need help there is no such push from feminists in general. That does not qualify as equality by any definition.



Yourscum -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:17:51 PM)

Well said elisabella.



realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:21:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Someone needs to make a female privilege checklist.

I'll start.

1. If I want to quit my job to raise my kids nobody will say it makes me less of a woman.
I don't agree, they may not say it openly, but in NYC at least, you'd get eyes rolling left and right at you. I've seen it.

2. If I help create a child and don't want to be a parent I am able to delete the baby regardless of what the other parent wants.
Usually the other parent has no interest in whether or not you are pregnant, from what I've heard.

3. If I choose not to risk my body pursuing sex outside of a relationship nobody will question my sexuality or imply I'm not a real woman.
What balances this out is that you are more likely to get cheated on because of this idea.

4. Unskilled labor typically filled by my gender is safer than unskilled labor typically filled by male applicants.
OK..but those unskilled labor male jobs often pay more.

5. When I go on dates I expect to be courted rather than to do the courting
To be fair, this is only if you are attractive, not by virtue of being a woman. Besides, many men will be upset if you don't pay for your half of the date, or don't respond in the way you want. Also, there is a greater likelihood that he's a player than a woman is.

6. My gender has a longer lifespan than the male gender
Yes, we are sooo very lucky to get to outlive our husbands and brothers and friends and live to a ripe old age on social security, totally alone with many, many cats.

7. If I commit a crime I am more likely to get a lenient sentence because of social attitudes that women aren't really capable of doing bad things
Can you give some solid examples to prove this? I've heard of plenty of cases where this isn't true. What about the women still in jail with a life sentence after killing their abusive husband in self defense?

8. I am able to use flirtation to my advantage in situations where I deal with men.
Again, only if you're cute. This does not apply for all women. Also, this tactic can gain the resentment of other women, and a lack of respect from men. It's a fine line.

I <3 my female privileges. I'll try to think of a few more but other people can add to them.



Yourscum -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:27:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Someone needs to make a female privilege checklist.

I'll start.


3. If I choose not to risk my body pursuing sex outside of a relationship nobody will question my sexuality or imply I'm not a real woman.
What balances this out is that you are more likely to get cheated on because of this idea.

4. Unskilled labor typically filled by my gender is safer than unskilled labor typically filled by male applicants.
OK..but those unskilled labor male jobs often pay more.



I <3 my female privileges. I'll try to think of a few more but other people can add to them.



For 3, that's your personal opinion (as were most of your responses), and for 4 I'd like to see some statistics to support that claim.



porcelaine -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:37:35 PM)


1. If I want to quit my job to raise my kids nobody will say it makes me less of a woman.
I can't relate to this for myself. But for those that want to do so have at it. I like going to work.

2. If I help create a child and don't want to be a parent I am able to delete the baby regardless of what the other parent wants.
That assumes I'm crazy enough to get pregnant at my age. I'm 38! That's a gigantic oops!

3. If I choose not to risk my body pursuing sex outside of a relationship nobody will question my sexuality or imply I'm not a real woman.
Not the men I talk to. They like controlling these things.

4. Unskilled labor typically filled by my gender is safer than unskilled labor typically filled by male applicants.
Safer maybe but the wages aren't identical by a long shot.

5. When I go on dates I expect to be courted rather than to do the courting
He always pays.

6. My gender has a longer lifespan than the male gender
Assuming I've taken care of myself. Otherwise I might kill over before him.

7. If I commit a crime I am more likely to get a lenient sentence because of social attitudes that women aren't really capable of doing bad things
Didn't you watch OZ? That is not a fun place. And I'm not okay with becoming someone's unwilling plaything. I take that stuff cause it's hot, not mandatory!

8. I am able to use flirtation to my advantage in situations where I deal with men.
I'm not spilling my secrets. *grins*

I <3 my female privileges. I'll try to think of a few more but other people can add to them.

I love being a woman and I'm darned good at it too!

~porcelaine



Elisabella -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 3:41:15 PM)

No doubt whether something is a 'privilege' or not depends on perspective but I could do the same thing with a lot of things on the male privilege checklist.


1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
Unless the company is working to promote diversity, and if there are few female applicants being a woman works in your favor.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. (More).
I get more credit for the same successes men have because women doing it is rare

3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
However I am able to use my sex to facilitate getting a promotion if I want to do so.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
But I'm able to use my gender to make people go easier on my failures rather than judging them objectively

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).
I'm far less likely to be accused of sexual harassment if I act flirtatiously

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
Only if it's a typically male dominated task. If the task is parenting it switches.

7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).
If I have sex with a drunk guy and he thinks I'm fug in the morning it's very unlikely I'll be convicted of rape for taking advantage of his impaired state.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.
By being taught to fear this I'm also being trained to maintain awareness of my surroundings which is a good thing for anyone to do.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
If I choose to stay home and parent them my femininity will not be called into question


10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
If I have children and do provide primary care for them, my femininity will not be called into question

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).
If I have children and focus all my time on them I'll be praised for doing what I'm supposed to rather than criticized for not being the primary breadwinner


12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.
If I have children and a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not tearing myself away from my kids to be the financial support.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
If I seek political office I'm able to use my relationship with my children and my mothering abilities to my advantage by running on a family values platform

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.
There are far more political special interest lobby groups specifically dedicated to 'womens issues' than there are dedicated to 'mens issues'

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
I'm also able to use my femininity to influence the decision of the person in charge

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).
As a child, chances are I was nurtured and spoiled more than my brothers

If you really want me to I'll go through the rest of the list but I'm getting bored formatting it. Suffice it to say I can probably find a way to flip all those around too.



realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 4:02:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I believe she was referring to MMercurial.


Right..I'm just sayin'...[8D][:D]



realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 4:17:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Someone needs to make a female privilege checklist.

I'll start.


3. If I choose not to risk my body pursuing sex outside of a relationship nobody will question my sexuality or imply I'm not a real woman.
What balances this out is that you are more likely to get cheated on because of this idea.

4. Unskilled labor typically filled by my gender is safer than unskilled labor typically filled by male applicants.
OK..but those unskilled labor male jobs often pay more.



quote:

For 3, that's your personal opinion (as were most of your responses), and for 4 I'd like to see some statistics to support that claim.


If most of my responses are my personal opinion, why bother singling out #3 and #4?

Interesting that you are just a data machine, and not speaking from personal opinion *at all*.



Madame4a -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 4:37:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

They "act like men" in that we have ingrained in our heads that "being a man" is synonymous with confidence, assertiveness, aggressiveness, self-esteem, power and so on. But for them it's not an act - those are their inherent traits.

If we'll allow for lesbians to be more typically "masculine" in nature, why won't we allow it for straight women too?


I have to apologize first for taking this out of context, but I reread this whole post a few times, came back to it and finally today decided that I wanted to repond to this part... firstly, I have some trouble with the "act like men" stereotype -- first because it is one and I don't fit it in any way... and neither do many people I know..

the other problem I have is that being confident, assertive and/or agressive .. or have self esteem or power is some how only something a man is.. or are inherently male traits... ?  Perhaps you meant this is all as an example.. but from your post, I got that you seemed to think it to be true?

I hate to keep pulling the straight v. gay card... but ultimately this seems like some kind of problem over all in the male dominant, female submissive hetero community...

Perhaps I'm completely wrong...



Aynne88 -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 5:44:28 PM)

Madame4a I could not agree more. Excellently said. [:D].



crazyml -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 7:43:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourscum


For 3, that's your personal opinion (as were most of your responses), and for 4 I'd like to see some statistics to support that claim.



It's odd that you didn't ask Elisabella for some stats to support here claims..... I'm all for sources, but if you ask one person for them while omitting another you're apt to look at least a little partial, at worst a bit like a jackass.



crazyml -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 8:05:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Someone needs to make a female privilege checklist.

I'll start.

1. If I want to quit my job to raise my kids nobody will say it makes me less of a woman.


I've seen the opposite.

quote:



2. If I help create a child and don't want to be a parent I am able to delete the baby regardless of what the other parent wants.


Setting the inflammatory "help create a child" phrase aside (let's have a heated debate about whether a foetus is a "child" in pollitics and religion by all means) - this isn't a privilege. This is a right, a hard won right, that gives a woman control over her body. It gives woman choices that she didn't have before.

quote:



3. If I choose not to risk my body pursuing sex outside of a relationship nobody will question my sexuality or imply I'm not a real woman.



Boggles - are you arguing that a man who chooses not to risk his body pursuing sex outside of a relationship is likely to have his sexuality questioned or have people imply that he's not a real man??? This is nonsense - unless the people questioning his sexuality are total jackasses.

quote:



4. Unskilled labor typically filled by my gender is safer than unskilled labor typically filled by male applicants.



Because yes, it's a privilege to be a maid. Sheesh.

quote:



5. When I go on dates I expect to be courted rather than to do the courting


How is this a privilege... this is an expectation surely?

quote:



6. My gender has a longer lifespan than the male gender



I don't see this as a privilege it's a matter of fact. Shorter male life expectancy isn't the result of women - Unless someone is going to argue that those braless harridans are nagging men into an early grave.

quote:



7. If I commit a crime I am more likely to get a lenient sentence because of social attitudes that women aren't really capable of doing bad things

Ah... I suppose this is a "Western Woman privilege checklist"... because this certainly isn't true generally.

Besides - I don't think this is true in the West either - I am sure women are more likely to be incarcerated than men for certain crimes.

quote:




8. I am able to use flirtation to my advantage in situations where I deal with men.


And men don't use flirtation to their advantage is situations where they have to deal with women?


Hmmm... Elisabella...

I'm not really sure of the point that you're making - Are you arguing that you can create a list that demonstrates that the work of feminism is over?





realwhiteknight -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 8:44:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourscum


For 3, that's your personal opinion (as were most of your responses), and for 4 I'd like to see some statistics to support that claim.



It's odd that you didn't ask Elisabella for some stats to support here claims..... I'm all for sources, but if you ask one person for them while omitting another you're apt to look at least a little partial, at worst a bit like a jackass.


Yes, that's what I had thought: why was the burden of proof to source my 'opinions' on *me* but not on the opposing debater? That's just obviously skewed.



Dragonswhore -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 9:02:14 PM)

I was wondering something from a conversation I had not long ago. I have talked to several dominant men, and I am only saying what was said in those conversations, not making a blanket statement about all men, be they dominant or not.

Among the men who have daughters, I have noticed a trend. I will usually broach the subject of if they consider their daughter more dominant or submissive. Every single one of them has answered dominant, there was no way their daughter was submissive.

It sort of showed me their opinion of subs and slaves both. It's good enough for you, but there is no way I would let my daughter stoop that low. I tell them that I am someones daughter also, and a woman..I was probably both of those before I ever thought of being a slave to anyone.

I have nothing against being a dominant woman, or wanting you daughter to be one also..I guess my thoughts are why if you look so much down upon them, would I consider belonging to you?

Just my 2 cents and probably not worth that...thoughts I have had rolling around



Elisabella -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 10:08:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I've seen the opposite.



Before or after Feminism? Feminism is fucking up my female privilege.

quote:


Setting the inflammatory "help create a child" phrase aside (let's have a heated debate about whether a foetus is a "child" in pollitics and religion by all means) - this isn't a privilege. This is a right, a hard won right, that gives a woman control over her body. It gives woman choices that she didn't have before.


It also gives women choices that men don't have. Thus, female privilege.

quote:

Boggles - are you arguing that a man who chooses not to risk his body pursuing sex outside of a relationship is likely to have his sexuality questioned or have people imply that he's not a real man??? This is nonsense - unless the people questioning his sexuality are total jackasses.


Um...yeah. Look I'm not talking every single man in the world, but if a guy is out with his friends and a beautiful woman comes up to him and tries to get him to go home with her and he turns her down because she's not his girlfriend 9 times out of 10 his friends are going to have something to say about that.

quote:



Because yes, it's a privilege to be a maid. Sheesh.



Better a maid than a miner. Dealing with people's dirty toilets is nothing compared to like, losing an arm in a factory or losing your life in a war overseas.

quote:


How is this a privilege... this is an expectation surely?


How is being taken out a privilege? I love it, it makes me feel special.

quote:

I don't see this as a privilege it's a matter of fact. Shorter male life expectancy isn't the result of women - Unless someone is going to argue that those braless harridans are nagging men into an early grave.


No shorter male life expectancy is related to dangerous jobs, men joining the army, men being more at risk for violent crimes, etc.

I'm talking about the privileges I was born into not the way women are oppressing men. My privilege doesn't have to be oppressive to be there.

quote:

Ah... I suppose this is a "Western Woman privilege checklist"... because this certainly isn't true generally.


Yeah I'm speaking from experience about the things that directly affect my life as a woman not being a spokesperson for "women" in general.

quote:

Besides - I don't think this is true in the West either - I am sure women are more likely to be incarcerated than men for certain crimes.


Which crimes?

quote:


And men don't use flirtation to their advantage is situations where they have to deal with women?


I'm sure they try but it doesn't work as well [8D]

quote:


Hmmm... Elisabella...

I'm not really sure of the point that you're making - Are you arguing that you can create a list that demonstrates that the work of feminism is over?



To be honest I don't even know what the "work of feminism" is right now. I'm just trying to say that there are quite a few things that are uniquely awesome about being a woman and they are things that I don't want to lose in order to bring men up to a more equal level.

edited to remove snark cuz you've been nice to me, I'll go into the "privilege checkist" in my next post



Elisabella -> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias (7/26/2010 10:26:04 PM)

This is what I'm trying to say about that privilege checklist...look at some of the privileges:

quote:

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.


Flip that - if a man does choose to provide primary care for his children, his masculinity will be called into question, whereas if a woman does choose to provide primary care, her femininity will not be called into question.

Which is the privilege - being able to financially support your children or being able to stay home and nurture them?

quote:

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.


As a child, chances are I was nurtured more, my feelings were given more consideration, if I wanted to cry about something nobody told me to suck it up and be a man about it.

Which is the privilege?
quote:


24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.


There is however a stigma attached to a man who wants to stay a virgin until marriage. Yeah you can say that your friends might not have that stigma but we're talking about society as a whole and I doubt you'd say that since your friends don't "slut bash" it doesn't exist either.

quote:

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.


I have an issue with these because it goes by the assumption that traditionally male roles are the ones that should be aspired to, that being able to be in a male role without question is a "privilege" and being able to be in a female role without question is "oppression"

How are the dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing any worse than the dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of your job?

Obviously sexual harrassment, discrimination, domestic violence, etc are real things and shouldn't just be considered acceptable, but what's the end goal here?



Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625