RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist....

RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (Full Version)

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truckinslave -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 7:36:58 AM)
quote: Is is possible that those who oppose a.a. when confronted with the situation will pick the least qualified applicant thus setting up a scenario that insures failure and allowing the bigot to crow..."I told you dem dum...(fill in the blank with the appropriate minority)were too dumb to walk and chew gum. No.

igor2003 -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 7:38:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML If there were only simple questions and simple answers and everything were to be taken at face value there would be no need for debate on a message board. Not quite how the world works. There are many things in the world that are debatable, but there are such things as simple questions and simple answers. It is what it is. Debating whether the sky is blue or the grass is green may fill some void in your life. To me it is a waste of time. PS...Sorry about the hijack.

truckinslave -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 7:41:49 AM)
quote: The key term is qualified. That is correct: qualified, not equally qualified. If the idea was equally qualified, then an admissions or hiring committee could make decisions based on applications that do not include the applicants race, or even name.

servantforuse -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 7:45:37 AM)
In my experiences with AA, being qualified has nothing to do with it. It should but it just doesn't...

MrRodgers -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 7:48:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissAsylum ...exactly WHO is being discriminated against. In my short time on this forum, i can't even begin to count how many time i've heard that affirmative action is rasict. But nobody ever says which ethnic group is being discriminated against as a result. Anybody care to shed some light on the situation? A note: I know the lot of you can become quite passionate during discussion- but can we try not to bash each other in the process? One might be forced to define AA as discrimination against the sons of the discriminators. (the planter's son & Jim Crow) For 250 years (2 1/2 centuries) in this country, black people were slaves, non-citizens and NOT able to read or learn. Then with Jim Crow, even without being human chattel as they were, still were not be equally educated and prepared as their white counterparts for a productive civil life so the feeling was for the last 100+ years that blacks were just 'not qualified.' I guess not, without equal public education. Kinkroids, MA, no real legal attempt was made to fix this until the 19...that's 19...50's & 60's which had much of white America kicking and screaming, now suddenly confronted with actually treating blacks the same in public K-12 in education. Then most were still denied entry into college. For a century, white America believe it or not...created, the black univ. I wonder why. Fast forward all through the 20th century and I still remember want-ads in the newspapers until the 19-60's of the major work centers...'White ONLY.' AA as I know it is just this...one factor and *one factor only (race)* in determining who is or should be hired or admitted to a college, that's all...one factor only. If applicants are otherwise equal...the race of an applicant can put them over the edge legally where as before...the white applicant had all of the edges...legally.

truckinslave -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 8:11:05 AM)
quote: AA as I know it is just this...one factor and one factor only (race) in determining who is or should be hired or admitted to a college, that's all...one factor only. If applicants are otherwise equal...the race of an applicant can put them over the edge legally where as before...the white applicant had all of the edges...legally. Yeah yeah yeah. AA had highly laudable goals. It devolved into a de facto quota system bearing little resemblence to its original parameters. The question is: when in the hell can we start completely ignoring race? When can we force colleges to admit students based on applications from which any clue as to the race of the applicant been thoroughly scrubbed? I think the question: "Would you rather wake up tomorrow morning as a white male or as a black male?" is valid, challenging, and thought-provoking. Let me try to elucidate another. If applicants to med schools are accepted only from a pool of equally well-qualified applicants, why do so many whites want those applications scrubbed of any racial refence? Why do so many blacks want the admissions boards to be aware of the race of the applicant?

TheHeretic -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 8:55:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissAsylum So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist ...exactly WHO is being discriminated against. In my short time on this forum, i can't even begin to count how many time i've heard that affirmative action is rasict. But nobody ever says which ethnic group is being discriminated against as a result. Anybody care to shed some light on the situation? A note: I know the lot of you can become quite passionate during discussion- but can we try not to bash each other in the process? It is racist and discriminatory against exactly the same people it proposes to help. It's the flip side of the coin, the pat on the head, to the poor, pathetic little thing who just isn't good enough to compete on his own. It shelters and institutionalizes racial divisions, and nurtures contempt for the "other." Did we need it once? I think we did. Values sometimes become incompatible and the negative impacts of AA were still a better deal than what was going on at the time. Should we treat it as the sacred remedy, never to be tampered with or replaced? Hell no.

kdsub -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 9:09:36 AM)
I don’t know about shedding light or if it is racist but I do believe my story points out that affirmative action was necessary but times have changed and it should be ended before it is viewed as racists. My daughter was applying at Washington University in St. Louis some years ago. She had an act of 30 and a 4.5 grade point average at high school. We are certainly not rich and the $28,000 a year without help would have been too much for us. She was applying for financial aide but was turned down because the affirmative action program had taken all the allotted aide money. For her program and admittance you needed to have a sponsor and he was very apologetic and suggested she reapply the following year. He explained that the school was required to fill a certain number of spots through the affirmative action program. These kids were inner-city African American students with a average act score of 18. Perhaps I did make more money than their parents but not a lot more and I would understand better if the kids had the same or close scholastic abilities. I believe rather than affirmative action that the economic standing of applying students, of relativity equal abilities, should be the only factor for financial aid. If this means African American or Vietnamese or average white American so be it…those that need it will get the help with the best chance to succeed. Butch

truckinslave -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 9:11:22 AM)
quote: Should we treat it as the sacred remedy, never to be tampered with or replaced? Hell no. in the last SCOTUS opinion on the subject, the majority opinion effectively put a time limit on it. I should live so long. Maybe.

truckinslave -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 9:16:18 AM)
quote: I believe rather than affirmative action that the economic standing of applying students, of relativity equal abilities, should be the only factor for financial aid. Agreed. I would add that if colleges, or other institutions, want to base admission, hiring, etc, on economic need, I see no reason for anyone to object even though, as long as there is rase-based economic disparity, it would in some sense amount to affirmative action for racial minorities. But it wouldn't be blatantly, obviously racist.

thompsonx -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 9:18:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: Is is possible that those who oppose a.a. when confronted with the situation will pick the least qualified applicant thus setting up a scenario that insures failure and allowing the bigot to crow..."I told you dem dum...(fill in the blank with the appropriate minority)were too dumb to walk and chew gum. No. ROFLMAO

kdsub -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 9:25:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: I believe rather than affirmative action that the economic standing of applying students, of relativity equal abilities, should be the only factor for financial aid. Agreed. I would add that if colleges, or other institutions, want to base admission, hiring, etc, on economic need, I see no reason for anyone to object even though, as long as there is rase-based economic disparity, it would in some sense amount to affirmative action for racial minorities. But it wouldn't be blatantly, obviously racist. I think it would be great if an economic program helped a particular group raise their standards... but there needs to be an academic standard applied along with an economic one. There was a time in the past where there was not equal opportunity in schools and that is still the case in some situations but overall there is an equal opportunity to learn no matter what your race or background. Kids must be challenged and rewarded for hard work at school not overlooked because they are of the wrong color.

DCWoody -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 9:27:06 AM)
Affirmative action as run in the usa is racist in favour of 'black people'. Don't really see how ya could have not got that OP.

vincentML -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 10:20:24 AM)
quote: The question is: when in the hell can we start completely ignoring race? When can we force colleges to admit students based on applications from which any clue as to the race of the applicant been thoroughly scrubbed? In 1905, 2.5% of all physicians in American were black. In 2005, 2.2% of all physicians in America were black. Maybe not yet.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 10:23:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissAsylum ...exactly WHO is being discriminated against. In my short time on this forum, i can't even begin to count how many time i've heard that affirmative action is rasict. But nobody ever says which ethnic group is being discriminated against as a result. Anybody care to shed some light on the situation? A note: I know the lot of you can become quite passionate during discussion- but can we try not to bash each other in the process? I dont understand the question, since the answer to what it appears to be asking is so obvious. Anyone who is more qualified than an AA candidate and is passed over for that reason is being discriminated against.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 10:25:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissAsylum while i se your point and agree with it, i was under the impression that AA came into practice when everybody is equal in skill and knowledge, but a few may be in the minority of who is already employed( afro-americans, women, disabled, etc) AA laws may be couched in those terms but that is not how it has been applied, particularly in the university system, where it has taken the form of quotas.

kdsub -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 10:31:45 AM)
Will vince affirmative action sure has not worked then...maybe it is more choice then discrimination. Maybe the way to prosperity is easier and less expensive in other fields of endeavor. Butch PS when I say easier I mean less time and less expensive. It seems there is a shortage in all races of doctors...hard work, long hours, no vacation, high insurance...on and on... I'm surprised we have any new doctors.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 10:35:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML There undoubtedly were individual situations where white males were disadvantaged when choices were made. And from what I have read there were many cases where AA students had a greater failure rate in University. I cannot document that from the past and I don't know what the current trend is but I recall that "open enrollment" colleges had to present remedial classes for additional help. It is certainly the case in the Maryland state university system. When my oldest son was being recruited to go to UMBC we were concerned about their very low graduation rate, despite it being rated very high academically, particularly in the sciences. When we discussed it with admissions they said that under state law, any graduate of a Md community college (mostly affirmative action admissions) that applied was required to be admitted to a state university. Despite mandatory remedial work in English and Math the summer before entering, their attrition in the first two years was nearly 100%.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 10:37:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Will vince affirmative action sure has not worked then...maybe it is more choice then discrimination. Maybe the way to prosperity is easier and less expensive in other fields of endeavor. Butch PS when I say easier I mean less time and less expensive. It seems there is a shortage in all races of doctors...hard work, long hours, no vacation, high insurance...on and on... I'm surprised we have any new doctors. Wait till the lower pay under Obamacare hits. There will be even fewer new doctors.

vincentML -> RE: So if Affirmative Action is supposedly racist.... (7/24/2010 10:38:16 AM)
Only 70% of all students in public high schools graduate, and only 32% of all students leave high school qualified to attend four-year colleges. Only 51% of all black students and 52% of all Hispanic students graduate, and only 20% of all black students and 16% of all Hispanic students leave high school college-ready. The graduation rate for white students was 72%; for Asian students, 79%; and for American Indian students, 54%. The college readiness rate for white students was 37%; for Asian students, 38%; for American Indian students, 14%. I think this data is from 2000 but I don't imagine it has changed much. Clearly, the problem seems to be systemic inadequate public school student readiness. The antecedents to the problem are probably varied. I haven't a clue what a practical solution might be.

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