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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:32:49 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I absolutely believe in gun safety courses. I even treat my toy gun as the real thing. I am vehement about keeping them away from children, and the guns and ammo are LOCKED in separate cabinets. (back when we had them). Still, what is the value of an unloaded gun?

Hmm. Well, it depends. My AR-15, with all the add-ons.... probably around $1400. The Colt .45, with the black parkerized finish, I wouldn't part with for less than $750. My grandfather's Belgian double-barreled shotgun, made in 1880 and that he brought over when he emigrated from Germany... well, it just really varies from gun to gun, you see. There's no universal answer.

We have so hijacked this thread. Which I have only read the first post of anyway.

I know. We'll be lucky not to get shot!

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:34:36 PM

Jeffff

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Many of the American posters might shoot back.

Just like the woman in the OP

(Jeff, bringing it back on topic)

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:36:08 PM

LadyHibiscus

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And they say you helped ruin CM! Why, I bet you're really Mod XI!

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:37:14 PM

Jeffff

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I have been asked to try.

I can try..... success is a different story.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:37:16 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I'm okay with it, too. When I hear about folks living near the Mexican border having drug traffickers running through their yards, I am even more okay with it.

In these times, when most of us are at best deeply suspicious of our government, when shoddily-trained people with guns are paid to limit our rights to free and unobstructed travel, when I need a passport to enter our friendliest neighbor country, yes, I am very glad that we have the right to legal firearms.

I suppose I should be clear that I think we could do better - I do believe we could reduce that number, and I'd be open to discussions on the national level about ways to do that. But even so, if the best we can ever do is 30,000 people a year dying from firearms, I can, uh... live with it.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:38:31 PM

Jeffff

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Wow............

When put like that.......I suppose I don't disagree, but it looks harsh.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:39:09 PM

LadyHibiscus

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When we were being the Murder Capital all those years ago, it was mainly due to drug dealers killing each other. I was, and am, perfectly fine with thugs killing other thugs. There has to be some point of attrition where we get ahead with that, right? It's kids getting hurt accidentally that really gets me.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:51:53 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
And if you try to make your point in a thread about a woman who legitimately - and very bravely - saved her own life by exercising her right to defend herself with a legally-owned firearm, then I think your whole argument loses its relevance.

Heh. No 'think' about it - I'm damned sure it loses its relevance. That was exactly what I meant in my earlier point. The way the debate is framed here makes it work that way. If the debate's started about an innocent individual who's defending him or herself against a violent criminal, it pretty much can't go otherwise. The winners in any pro-gun/anti-gun debate are those who manage to frame each argument the way they want it framed. Arguments about individuals don't answer arguments about society as a whole, nor vice versa. That's one reason why this will go on for ever and a day.

Another reason is the culture behind it - yes. That second amendment and everything that led to it. I wouldn't expect it ever to be easy.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:52:44 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Wow............

When put like that.......I suppose I don't disagree, but it looks harsh.

And you're right, it is harsh. I'm sure a lot of people will hate me for even saying that. But 30,000 a year is what... 1 out of 10,000 people? So the bottom line is that if you live in America, you have a .001% chance of dying by gunshot in any given year. Roughly 3 times greater than the risk if you live in Canada, and 5 times greater than the risk in Australia.

To me, that's an acceptable risk. Others will disagree, and they're welcome to their opinions. But as far as I'm concerned, that's a risk I'm willing to assume to live in a society that recognizes my right to arm myself.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 7:56:10 PM

Jeffff

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As I said I don't disagree.

I also believe the vast majority of those killed brought it upon themselves.

It is always sad when an innocent dies in in the crossfire. If our gun laws, as they are today, were actually enforced it might lessen those greatly.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 8:14:13 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
But even so, if the best we can ever do is 30,000 people a year dying from firearms, I can, uh... live with it.

Sorry - but if you were one of those 30,000, you couldn't live with it, on account of . . . you'd be dead. Just saying. ;-)

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 8:17:32 PM

VideoAdminRho

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quote:

We have so hijacked this thread.

Yes, you have. I won't be shooting anyone, but any further hijacking will get pulled and the 'perp' will get a gold bordered love note.

The topic is stated in the OP, please start another thread if you want to discuss the legality of guns.

< Message edited by VideoAdminRho -- 7/30/2010 8:19:21 PM >

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 9:18:03 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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ORIGINAL: VideoAdminRho

Yes, you have. I won't be shooting anyone, but any further hijacking will get pulled and the 'perp' will get a gold bordered love note.
The topic is stated in the OP, please start another thread if you want to discuss the legality of guns.

Granted, we ranged far and wide, but just exactly what is the topic? I don't see one stated in the OP at all. Just a quote cut from an article, and the comment that it's an awesome story and the OP is sorry the woman had to go through that. If there's a topic we're now supposed to be sticking to, what exactly is it?

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 9:28:41 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

DomInus - Thanks for the news (and new website to peruse)

kdsub - In the case of guns you generally only know when something fails, not when it doesn't. Part of this is because it is considered uncouth to advocate for guns/publish pro-gun stories. Part of it is because when a responsible gun owner saves a life(s) it's not for fame or glory and prefers to not be bothered.. oh hell.. I could go on for a while but it sickens me to have to point it out as it does for many anti- to read it (we all know it's not twue!)

Why would you be thanking anyone for providing a website that clearly distorts the truth?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 7/30/2010 9:29:08 PM >

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 9:41:52 PM

domiguy

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

They were threatening her life and getting ready to rape her. Why would anyone be the least bit disappointed that she killed one and wounded the other?

No one is disappointred with the outcome if it holds up as being accurate.

There is nothing in any other account that attributed her with firing from her purse.

That was propaganda created by the website that domimus chooses to receive his news.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 9:44:32 PM

domiguy

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminRho

Yes, you have. I won't be shooting anyone, but any further hijacking will get pulled and the 'perp' will get a gold bordered love note.
The topic is stated in the OP, please start another thread if you want to discuss the legality of guns.

Granted, we ranged far and wide, but just exactly what is the topic? I don't see one stated in the OP at all. Just a quote cut from an article, and the comment that it's an awesome story and the OP is sorry the woman had to go through that. If there's a topic we're now supposed to be sticking to, what exactly is it?

I thought that the story was about how certain folks will lie and distort the truth to further an agenda and dramaticize a story needlessly in order to influence others to accept their ideology.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/30/2010 11:01:36 PM

VideoAdminRho

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quote:

Granted, we ranged far and wide, but just exactly what is the topic? I don't see one stated in the OP at all. Just a quote cut from an article, and the comment that it's an awesome story and the OP is sorry the woman had to go through that. If there's a topic we're now supposed to be sticking to, what exactly is it?

The topic is the news story posted. Feel free to discuss both the article itself and the event any way you like, even if it is to attack the authenticity of the reporting (as noted by Domi) or criticize the actions of the participants. Discussion of responsible gun ownership is related, and is therefore on topic if it is tied to the circumstances of this event.

General discussion of the 2nd Amendment and/ or US culture as it relates to firearms is better suited to its own thread, as is discussion of particular firearms and their uses or what restrictions should be placed on gun ownership.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/31/2010 1:17:44 AM

RedStapler

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Hon, it boils down to this, for me. The days of the Cold War are gone. Things have changed massively and we all need to catch up. The USA is now the hegemon - the only superpower. The rest of the world needs the USA to be very grown up and very balanced. The American gun culture is un-grown-up. It's childish, it's out of date, it's uncivilised and it's shit. Please get rid of it. Thank you in advance.

The fallacy is to believe that outlawing gun ownership would create a gun-free society. Sadly, criminals are quite good at getting firearms outside of legal channels, smuggled in from everywhere if its not available domestically. Even common street criminals can illegally obtain weapons fairly easily. Most citizens cannot purchase a TEC-9 or MAC-10 legally, but street thugs in cities all over the US get them without much difficulty.

But outside of the purely practical matter of getting millions of illegal weapons off the street, there are reasons why US gun culture is what it is. Let's look at the 4 basic reasons why people own guns.

1. Sport / Hunting / Target shooting
2. Collecting (historic / antique arms)
3. Self defense
4. Preservation of Liberty

I will not focus much on the first two, although there are certainly legitimate needs there. There are people in America who live in rural places and hunt to feed their families.

For point number 3, outlawing guns means that citizens are completely dependent upon police to protect them from violent crime. Police cannot be everywhere at once nor respond instantly. In many rural parts of the country, it could take an hour or more for any help to arrive. And Americans are loath to be reliant on anyone for anything.

Also, owning a gun is an equalizer in an otherwise unequal world. A large man may be much stronger physically than a petite woman, but he's not stronger than a bullet. There are potentially two things stopping a man from imposing his will on a woman.

1. Threat of the use of force against him by the state.
2. Threat of the use of force against him by his victim.

The man can more easily escape #1. Once the crime is done, he can sneak away in the night before the police are alerted. He may get caught or he may not. Either way, the violence against his victim is done. Only if the potential victim has a means exerting force on the perpetrator can the crime be prevented.

Now, let us examine reason #4. You may consider it an anachronism. I certainly do not. This is another very important reason that our Constitution forbids the government from outlawing guns. Doing so would give the government a monopoly on power. If a government becomes tyrannical or completely corrupt, the last recourse of the population is to overthrow that government, and this is much harder if not impossible to do if the populace is unarmed. In order to keep the government honest, the founders wanted to make sure that the people would always hold ultimate power, that the threat of revolution would ALWAYS be there. This scenario may seem unlikely today (although a small minority believes it is very likely) but all the same I would rather have a gun and never have to use it than not have one and find the gestapo knocking at my door.

There's a reason that the JFPO calls itself "America's Most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership"

< Message edited by RedStapler -- 7/31/2010 1:24:52 AM >

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/31/2010 3:07:37 AM

splorff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I thought your opinion on gun control was basically total freedom and 'fuck the state', Splorff. Has that changed as this thread has progressed? Or did I get the wrong impression when you said, earlier,

quote:

ORIGINAL: splorff
It is shameful of politicians to attempt to proscribe gun ownership, for in doing so, they deny people their human right to defend themselves, and their families. Fuck the state.

I am all for responsible gun ownership in the UK. As someone said earlier, the police cannot defend us when we need help. Criminals offend when the police are not present mostly.

I am sick of reading about shooting, stabbings rape and people being tortured in their home for their pin number.

I am sick of politicians taking it upon themselves to decide what we can and can't do.

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RE: My kind of gun control - 7/31/2010 3:18:20 AM

splorff

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ORIGINAL: RedStapler

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: splorff

KD I am in a forum where an American guy posted about a town in his state. The mayor ruled that every home owner had to own a gun. Those with criminal records or mental health issues were excluded.

The results do not support your views. Burglaries went down significantly, if I recall correctly it was a decrease of perhaps 40% Other decreases followed, for as you know burglary is sometimes accompanied by rape, beating, torture and homicide.

Kennesaw Georgia, by chance?

Crime Plunges in Pro-gun Town

Kennesaw, Ga., a northern suburb of Atlanta, passed an ordinance requiring heads of households "to maintain a firearm" and ammunition "to provide for the civil defense" and "protect the general welfare of the City and its inhabitants."

...

Kennesaw's crime rate plummeted. In fact, the number of some crimes declined amid soaring population growth. For example, in figures the city provided to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, Kennesaw had 54 burglaries in 1981 – the year before the gun ordinance – with a population of 5,242. In 1999, with a population of 19,000, only 36 burglaries were reported.

The rate of violent crime is approximately four times lower than the state and national rates, Kennesaw's Crime Statistics Report said. "Violent crime is almost nonexistent in residential neighborhoods," Graydon told UPI. The detective, who has been with the police department since 1986, said the isolated exceptions take place in motels or in commercial areas.

Firm

Sounds like my kind of place. Unfortunately, I live in the most PUSSIFIED NANNY STATE in the country (where citizens are presumed to be too dumb to pump our own gas, and the sheeple LIKE IT THAT WAY).