RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/28/2010 9:34:49 PM)

"any taxes put on a corp. are passed on to the consumer."

Agreed, but through taxation we can make certain actions more desirable than others and affect their behavior. It's a form of social engineering, and what most can't see is that these forces have been used against the US consumer for a long time.

For example, oh those of short memory, do you know ONE FUCKING PERSON who supported NAFTA ? Do you know ONE FUCKING PERSON who supported "free" trade with Japan, Hong Kong, Indonesia, China ? I'd like to see someone that fucking stupid, really, it'll make me feel much better.

Anyone with a working brain knows that all these things were a detriment to our economy, period. And politicians who said there would be a giant sucking sound of jobs moving out of the US were right, but did they lift a finger to stop it ? You tell me.

T




popeye1250 -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 12:24:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"any taxes put on a corp. are passed on to the consumer."

Agreed, but through taxation we can make certain actions more desirable than others and affect their behavior. It's a form of social engineering, and what most can't see is that these forces have been used against the US consumer for a long time.

For example, oh those of short memory, do you know ONE FUCKING PERSON who supported NAFTA ? Do you know ONE FUCKING PERSON who supported "free" trade with Japan, Hong Kong, Indonesia, China ? I'd like to see someone that fucking stupid, really, it'll make me feel much better.

Anyone with a working brain knows that all these things were a detriment to our economy, period. And politicians who said there would be a giant sucking sound of jobs moving out of the US were right, but did they lift a finger to stop it ? You tell me.

T



Term, not only do I not know ONE FUCKING PERSON who supported NAFTA I knew a lot of people who were against it!
But, Clinton did it anyway!
It's just more proof that our govt isn't LISTENING to the American People.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 12:37:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Popeye, tariffs are bad. They are just another tax that we in this country will end up paying. I'm not sure what brand of jeans you do wear, but I'll bet they aren't made here.
Oh, like no tarriffs. tax incentives for offshoring manufacturing, and corporate tax cuts, and those tax cuts for the rich, which were supposed to allow the rich to crerate new jobs, actually fucking worked.

RIIIIIIIIIGHT.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 1:01:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Actually, taxing companies that have outsourced jobs sounds pretty good to me, but then I am a liberal democrat who happens to believe in owning firearms


I feel the concept is flawed. It will fail. Consider when the automobile was invented. Horse drawn carriages were the standard mode of transport. Blacksmiths had a thriving business in horses shoes. When the automobile became ubiquitous all the horses were retired except for a few specialized cases. Do ya think placing a horseshoe tax on the automobile would have kept the smithy in business? Not at all. That business was doomed.

Automobiles killed the blacksmith business and video killed the radio star. Globalization has had a deleterious effect on manufacturing in the US.

What did the blacksmith do to survive and thrive? He learned a new craft. The US is transforming from a mfg-ing economy to a service and technological economy. Young people in their 20s and 30s are going to night school to learn new skills suited for the new economy. There is a push and pull in the jobs market. People will seek out and/or create jobs that have value in our economy and leave the manufacture of cheap goods to outsourcing. Do ya think website designing is an ancient skill?

I would say the same thing for low paying manual work that is "outsourced" within our own borders to illegal immigrants. People who have been displaced from those low wage jobs have gone on to develop new employment skills. Or, they had better. Unfortunately, some are too old or ill or otherwise unable to take the initiative. I don't have much faith in retraining programs but I suppose they are partly a solution. So yeh, many suffer. Sad to say that has always been a force in Capitalism that we have not been too quick to acknowledge. Technology and circumstances change the job market. Labor is no longer secure. Maybe never was. We have to face the fact that some jobs will never come back because they are of a different era.

I doubt either a tax or a tariff on goods will be effective or in the long run will be needed. We need to adopt our education system to the changing times.
Problem is, Vincent, there's a world of difference between retraining a blacksmith to turn bolts on an assembly line, and taking that same blacksmith and trying to train him to troubleshoot servers and routers.
The whole "let's retrain everyone" scenario is predicated on the false notion that every worker in the US is equipped with the same intellectual skills. It simply ain't so. You cannot wave a magic wand and imbue the ability to code software, or read x-rays, or perform any number of tasks which are required in this wonderful "post-industrial" society. Almost 30% of black youth have been left behind. Now increasing numbers of whites, who previously had well-paying jobs related to manufacturing, have been sidelined with no marketable skills and who are, for all practical purposes, untrainable.

This has been going on for over 40 years, this exporting of making our own stuff. We cannot have a functional society wherin all of our consumables come from China, a priveleged few administrate the importation and sale of said consumables, and the rest are either in high-remuneration service industries (healthcare, financials, insurance, etc.) or are at subsistance-levels of existence, employed or not.

Either you want a healthy middle class, or you want to revert to Feudalism. Feudalism is the end result of unrestrained Capitalism. The ONLY way to a strong middle class is to adopt the policies which gave us the strongest middle class in the world 60 years ago.

Do a little research and read the Republican Party platforms of 1950 or 1960. They're the same principles that moronic cocksuckers like Beck and that fuckwit Boortz call "Socialism".




cadenas -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 1:02:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
Popeye, tariffs are bad. They are just another tax that we in this country will end up paying. I'm not sure what brand of jeans you do wear, but I'll bet they aren't made here.


No. This is a tax that ideally NOBODY would be paying. Because ideally, everybody would start buying American-made jeans again.

What always gets me in these discussions is that people somehow assume that prices for jeans etc. would not change. Of course prices go up! They have to - if they didn't, American manufacturers would have to make jeans at a loss.

So somebody has to pay for these American jobs. It's either the consumer - through higher prices for jeans - or the taxpayer - through subsidies to the jeans-maker - or the workers who would now have to work for Chinese-level wages but still pay American-level rents and grocery prices. Somebody has got to pay for it. Simple as that.





cadenas -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 1:16:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Problem is, Vincent, there's a world of difference between retraining a blacksmith to turn bolts on an assembly line, and taking that same blacksmith and trying to train him to troubleshoot servers and routers.


Be that as it may - the answer really can't be to prohibit servers and routers (that would be the equivalent of prohibiting automobiles to preserve the blacksmith jobs).

Fortunately, the situation is not near as dire as you make it out to be. It is a concern, but not as devastating. We still have lots of jobs for those who can't retrain for some reason or other (if we didn't, we'd have far more unemployment).

In part that is because a blacksmith wouldn't have been retrained "to turn bolts" but likely as a toolmaker. Toolmakers learned CNC over the last couple decades. And it's not as huge step to routers and servers as it may seem.





cadenas -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 1:23:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: THELADY
any taxes put on a corp. are passed on to the consumer. so, if a bill like the cap and trade bill is passed our gas and heating oil prices will come close to doubleing, not because of the evilness of the corp, rather the evilness of the govt who adds the taxes.


It always amazes me how most conservatives seem to have flunked economics 101. That's where the "passed on to consumer" nonsense is usually coming from.

In a free market, prices are dictated by supply and demand. Not by costs. As long as supply and demand remain unchanged, companies can't raise prices no matter what the taxes are. Markets where costs can drive prices up are, by definition, not free markets (usually, they are monopolies or oligolopolies).

Taxes DO change the cost structure - and that's the whole point of tax incentives: reward things we consider desirable, and make undesirable actions more expensive.





cadenas -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 1:31:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
For example, oh those of short memory, do you know ONE FUCKING PERSON who supported NAFTA ? Do you know ONE FUCKING PERSON who supported "free" trade with Japan, Hong Kong, Indonesia, China ? I'd like to see someone that fucking stupid, really, it'll make me feel much better.


Do you remember why it's called NAfta? NORTH AMERICAN. Last time I checked, China, Japan, Hong Kong and Indonesia were all half-way around the world from Mexico and Canada, an ocean and two continents away.

The jobs aren't going to Mexico (in fact, Mexico is also losing manufacturing jobs to China). To borrow your words, "I'd like to see someone that fucking stupid to believe that jobs going to China have anything to do with NAFTA!"





Lordandmaster -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 2:11:32 AM)

Yeah, that's what I would have said.  Let's have tax PENALTIES for companies that outsource jobs or hire illegal immigrants.

Tax incentives?  Good God, like we haven't already cut corporate America every conceivable sweetheart deal.  Why don't we give them coupons for once-weekly ass-fuckings while we're at it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

How about a punitive tax on companies that have all outsourced all of their manufacturing? A combination of some sort of huge fine and a punitive import duty would soon have Walmart and the like manufacturing in the 'States again.
Or is that not what you mean by "tax incentive"?




DCWoody -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 2:55:39 AM)

quote:

Do you know ONE FUCKING PERSON who supported "free" trade with Japan, Hong Kong, Indonesia, China ?


Every single economist?

"It's just more proof that our govt isn't LISTENING to the American People."

The us govt would be massively negligent to allow the implimentation of suggestions in this thread.




DomYngBlk -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 4:24:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The corporate tax rate on the Federal level is 15 to 35% dependent on total revenues.



That's the rate based on a literal interpretation of the the tax code, the reality is most corporations pay far less because of numerous loopholes.

Remember the recent story about GE paying absolutely no taxes?



Wanna get that story?


GE, Exxon Paid No U.S. Income Taxes in 2009 - ABC News

The most egregious example is General Electric. Last year the conglomerate generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.

Avoiding taxes is nothing new for General Electric. In 2008 its effective tax rate was 5.3%; in 2007 it was 15%. The marginal U.S. corporate rate is 35%.




Thanks, the add-on whine was about them not making any profit in the US which is bullshit...Appreciate it




vincentML -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 7:13:23 AM)

quote:

Problem is, Vincent, there's a world of difference between retraining a blacksmith to turn bolts on an assembly line, and taking that same blacksmith and trying to train him to troubleshoot servers and routers.
The whole "let's retrain everyone" scenario is predicated on the false notion that every worker in the US is equipped with the same intellectual skills. It simply ain't so. You cannot wave a magic wand and imbue the ability to code software, or read x-rays, or perform any number of tasks which are required in this wonderful "post-industrial" society. Almost 30% of black youth have been left behind. Now increasing numbers of whites, who previously had well-paying jobs related to manufacturing, have been sidelined with no marketable skills and who are, for all practical purposes, untrainable.


Thank you, HK, but I feel you've misread what I said and my intent. I did not advocate retraining everyone.

I said: I don't have much faith in retraining programs but I suppose they are partly a solution. So yeh, many suffer. Sad to say that has always been a force in Capitalism that we have not been too quick to acknowledge. Technology and circumstances change the job market. Labor is no longer secure. Maybe never was. We have to face the fact that some jobs will never come back because they are of a different era.

I did not spell it out but I was referring to the concept of "Creative Destruction" which is an imbedded force in Capitalism. Simply put, new markets, new business arrangements, and new technology render previous job skills and business plans as obsolete. Tax manipulation is a feeble finger in the dike. People need to be aware that their jobs can quickly become obsolete, their skills useless. This is particlularly tragic for fifty year old blue collar workers with whom I have great sympathy. I am not saying the situation is hopeless for future 50 year olds. I am saying Creative Destruction is a force to be reckoned with. Not only have we no solution as yet but we aren't even talking about the real problem.

This from Joseph Schumpeter's Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy (New York: Harper, 1975) [orig. pub. 1942], pp. 82-85:

quote:

Capitalism, then, is by nature a form or method of economic change and not only never is but never can be stationary. And this evolutionary character of the capitalist process is not merely due to the fact that economic life goes on in a social and natural environment which changes and by its change alters the data of economic action; this fact is important and these changes (wars, revolutions and so on) often condition industrial change, but they are not its prime movers. Nor is this evolutionary character due to a quasi-automatic increase in population and capital or to the vagaries of monetary systems, of which exactly the same thing holds true. The fundamental impulse that sets and keeps the capitalist engine in motion comes from the new consumers, goods, the new methods of production or transportation, the new markets, the new forms of industrial organization that capitalist enterprise creates.

As we have seen in the preceding chapter, the contents of the laborer's budget, say from 1760 to 1940, did not simply grow on unchanging lines but they underwent a process of qualitative change. Similarly, the history of the productive apparatus of a typical farm, from the beginnings of the rationalization of crop rotation, plowing and fattening to the mechanized thing of today–linking up with elevators and railroads–is a history of revolutions. So is the history of the productive apparatus of the iron and steel industry from the charcoal furnace to our own type of furnace, or the history of the apparatus of power production from the overshot water wheel to the modern power plant, or the history of transportation from the mailcoach to the airplane. The opening up of new markets, foreign or domestic, and the organizational development from the craft shop and factory to such concerns as U.S. Steel illustrate the same process of industrial mutation–if I may use that biological term–that incessantly revolutionizes the economic structure from within, incessantly destroying the old one, incessantly creating a new one. This process of Creative Destruction is the essential fact about capitalism. It is what capitalism consists in and what every capitalist concern has got to live in. . .
.


Schumpeter's observation is that Revolution is the essence of Capitalism. Deal with it.

There is more here: http://transcriptions.english.ucsb.edu/archive/courses/liu/english25/materials/schumpeter.html





thishereboi -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 8:02:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Personally, in mine and Firm's discussions, I'm pushing for Argentina.  [;)]

That was a nice mountain-top you showed me.  You could see the beach from the front veranda, I think.

Only half a mil, wasn't it?

You suppose we can pay the help a couple of dollars a day to scrub the floors and tend the crops?

It would be a big pay raise for most of em.

Firm



Sounds nice, I don't suppose you'll need a boi down there to help out?[:)]



Hmmm... depends.  Can you cook?   [:D]


Yes, I can.[:)]




toxic66 -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 12:34:36 PM)

quote:

What utter and complete bullshit!!!!!!

Are you really naive enough to believe that if we eliminate corporate taxes the corporations will smile down on us benevolently and prices will drop, wages will increase, and we can walk hand-in-hand down the yellow brick road?


Prices would not go down overnight, but they would go down. Want to know why? (smile you're going to like this) Because of greed! You see some greedy bastard at one of the corporations will figure out that without all those tax expenses he can lower his price some and sell a lot more product. By selling a lot more product he makes more revenue (even at at a smaller profit margin). Then the other corporations have to follow suit. The markets actually do work people, if you let them. They have a long history of doing so. Also, government controlled markets have a long history of failure. Look at North Korea vs South Korea, East Germany vs West Germany (back when they were split), or the USSR.

quote:

It always amazes me how most conservatives seem to have flunked economics 101. That's where the "passed on to consumer" nonsense is usually coming from.

In a free market, prices are dictated by supply and demand. Not by costs. As long as supply and demand remain unchanged, companies can't raise prices no matter what the taxes are. Markets where costs can drive prices up are, by definition, not free markets (usually, they are monopolies or oligolopolies).

Taxes DO change the cost structure - and that's the whole point of tax incentives: reward things we consider desirable, and make undesirable actions more expensive


Before you criticized conservatives about lacking economic knowledge, you should have brushed up on yours. If you don’t think expenses have anything to do with price, then you don't know business. Remember the supply side of the law of supply and demand? That is where expenses come in. The suppliers have to be willing to supply the product at that price. If their expenses go up and they can no longer supply it at that price they will no longer produce it. Simply put, equilibrium price is the price that the seller is willing to sell it at, and the buyer is willing to buy it at. If I am in business and I know my competition either has to pay the tax too, or pay for the more expensive American workers vs. Chinese workers. They will have to decide which. But, understand one way or another you the U. S. consumer will end up paying for it. You are a fool if you think otherwise.

I have seen some posts on this thread calling on giving the Federal Government some very broad powers to go after people (corporations are made up of people), that you feel need to be punished. Just remember that once the government has that power it may decide to come after you next. In the end you can’t have freedom without economic freedom.

If you take a course on world economics you will learn that the reason that free trade is encouraged is that specialization makes sense and is good for the broad economies as a whole. Yes, there are some painful adjustments that are made as economies adjust to the new realities, but that is always the case. Specialization works in America so that it is better for some people to be farmers, or policemen, or doctors, or lawyers, etc. instead of everyone trying to do everything themselves. Likewise it is good for countries to do the same. China has a lot of cheap unskilled labor, so it makes sense for them to do the jobs that use a lot of unskilled labor. The U. S. has a lot of skilled labor so it makes sense for us to have more jobs in industries that need more of that. The consumers (both in China and here) win. The French may make the best wine, the Russians the best vodka, you get the picture. We have lost jobs to India. India used to be dirt poor, as it grows and its economy does better, it actually opens up more of a market for some of our goods. Plus, isn’t it a good thing for so many Indians to be lifted out of poverty? I thought liberals were supposed to have compassion for the poor... does it stop at our border?




thompsonx -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 12:52:53 PM)

quote:

Been done. Several times. Never works out.


Would you mind telling us where and why it never works out?




LaTigresse -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 12:55:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Outsourcing of American jobs is a hot topic, I have seen in come up in a few topics.

What would you agree to if it would bring jobs back to the United States?

Tax breaks for corporations to cut down on labor costs?

The corporate tax rate on the Federal level is 15 to 35% dependent on total revenues.

What about minimum wage laws? Would those be on the block for change?


No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.




thompsonx -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 12:55:49 PM)

quote:

I do not know why people do not understand that corprations are not people.


The supreme court says they are




vincentML -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 1:12:20 PM)

quote:

No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.


OMG, LT!! The Chinese or Vietnamese worker earns much less than even minimum wage in this Country. How can you lay the blame on Labor Unions? Are you advocating a competing wage for American workers at $2 per hour?




rulemylife -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 1:19:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

No, I would not support tax incentives. I would support smacking the shit out of organizations like the, Teamsters and Machinists Unions, for bargaining the people they are paid to represent, right out of jobs.



Yep LaT, we sure wouldn't want to impinge on those CEO and executive bonuses.

Because they truly earn it.

Does AIG ring a bell?




mnottertail -> RE: Would you agree to tax incentives to bring jobs back to the US? (7/29/2010 1:29:19 PM)

Heres what I would agree to, like a dining license:

So many percent of your workforce if you are a US based corporation must come from the US. If not, heavy fines and eventually have your incorporation anulled, taxed at individual tax rates.
If you are a foreign corporation, books must be kept for the US operation that shows profit generated here, and pay US tax on that profit.

This on any company that is on any stock exchange. 




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