RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (Full Version)

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Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 5:48:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

My late dom had all the qualities posted, in spades, but if you met him, you probably wouldn't have seen it.
To me he was very chivalrous, and to other subs he was just as chivalrous.

With other doms, he showed chivalry when earned.


It is without question that the right of a lady is to be treated as she is due. It is good to hear that your late Dom indeed did bestow upon you the qualities of chivalry, as was due you. An honor indeed it is to be in the company of a lady who is dear to the heart of a gentleman. A lady who like my late beloved companion who indeed was treated with the dignity due her as My Lady.

In regards to men, I treat other men with the respect due them unless they display conduct that is contrary to what is expected of any man when he reaches manhood. I am of the thought that manhood does require a man to conduct himself as a gentleman in the company of other men of like-mindedness AND surely in the company of ladies.

This does include demonstrating the qualities of chivalry, undoubtedly. To do any less in my world equates to disrespect of my personal status as an Irish gentlemen master. Indeed a subjective perceptive.

Take good care of you!



Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 6:01:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied In some ways it is a lost art.


Without a doubt!

Take good care of you!



DesFIP -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 6:12:08 PM)

Chivalry implies that women are fragile, weak and need protection. Indeed, there was an attempt to derail suffrage for women in America because of this belief.
I advise you all to read Sojourner Truth's response to such an assumption.

If women are to be protected from real life, that means we cannot cope with it. Therefore undo the 1964 Civil Rights Act in terms of equal rights for women, such as Title 9 in school, equal pay for equal work, and so on.

If however you are talking about manners, that's a totally different subject.



Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 6:18:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Greetings Master,

This girl's Master came from BDSM prior to becoming Gorean and in both cases, he has always been chivalrous. Indeed one of this girl's rules is that she is not allowed in or out of the car unless he opens the door for her (or occasionally, gives her permission to let herself out if it is for some reason not expedient). He is the sort of man who holds open doors, shelters a girl with his umbrella, etc. Sometimes people have actually stopped him and commented about his opening the car door for his girl. It is indeed rather rare. But for this girl, it makes her feel more his and protected by him. It is definitely a quality this girl admires and looks for in a man.

Well wishes,
anna


Good day, anna:

The essence of your reply speaks volumes to what I am referring to in terms of chivalry being bestowed upon a lady who a gentleman chooses to make his own. Indeed the underlying nuances of chivalry are far reaching as is a stone when cast across waters. The ripple effect reflects the beauty of its object.

My best to you and your Master, moreover strength of mind, body and soul unto both of you. Indeed I bid good health, enough wealth and peace unto His household from mine.

Be most well!



Lordandmaster -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 6:35:50 PM)

Unless you're ready to bring out the hempen tunics, mead & green bread suppers, and a healthy dose of bubonic plague while you're at it, chivalry is out of place in today's society.  Unless by "chivalry" you mean something different from what the word really means (how to be a proper horseman in a society where the upper crust traveled on horseback).  But in that case I think you ought to state more precisely what you mean.  At least then we'll all understand what we're talking about.

I will never understand why people keep looking to fable and legend for "codes" explaining how we're supposed to behave in every situation.  Why not show some true courage and live by your OWN code?  Think it through, and then abide by it.  That earns my respect.



gungadin09 -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 6:37:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar
When I use the term chivalry I am speaking in terms of the combination of qualities especially courage, honor, loyalty, and consideration for others, especially shown by a men toward women.


Those are admirable qualities in anyone, towards anyone. However, i agree with littlewonder. As a woman, i don't want "chivalry" so much as common courtesy and respect. i object a little bit to the term "chivalry". It reminds me too much of a damsel in distress. i don't need rescuing from the castle, thank you, and i can open doors for myself. But courage, honor, loyalty, and consideration are always welcome traits in anyone.

pam



Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 6:46:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Chivalry implies that women are fragile, weak and need protection. Indeed, there was an attempt to derail suffrage for women in America because of this belief.
I advise you all to read Sojourner Truth's response to such an assumption.

If women are to be protected from real life, that means we cannot cope with it. Therefore undo the 1964 Civil Rights Act in terms of equal rights for women, such as Title 9 in school, equal pay for equal work, and so on.

If however you are talking about manners, that's a totally different subject.


Greetings DesFIP:

A thought comes to mind in reading your entry. I question how it is that women can dictate to men in terms of choosing to act in chivalrous ways toward a lady and yet you as a woman apparently would protest if a man dictated to you regarding how you deem suitable to conduct yourself, behaviorally speaking? Did I "hear" you correctly? If not do clarify.

Further how do you equate chivalry as is related to the various terms below with Isabella Baumfree an African-American abolitionist and women's rights activist?

gallantry, courtliness, loyalty, valor, courage, bravery, magnanimity, nobility, courtesy, courteousness, politeness, attentiveness, gentility, good manners, civility, kindness and consideration.

If you would kindly explain that would be most appreciated.

Thank you!



Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 7:10:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

1] Is chivalry unappealing or appealing to those among the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?


I prefer a gentleman's company. What I desire most is someone well bred who emits this through his character, speech, behavior, and demeanor towards others.

quote:

2] Is chivalry practiced among those in the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?


I didn't encounter the behavior often in dominant men within the community.

quote:

3] What do you believe the reasons are for chivalry not being commonly practiced in society of Western Culture among the majority of men of today?


There are a host of things we can pinpoint, but at the end of the day a man makes a choice on how he will conduct himself. In my opinion that is where the onus rests.

~porcelaine



Greetings ~porcelaine:

To begin, forgive my unintentional delay in replying to your entry. I do agree that a man is responsible for his conduct at all times. However the subject of a gentleman conducting himself in a chivalrous manner toward a lady that he relates with is a different subject altogether. What I mean is there are subtleties that occur when a gentleman conducts himself in a chivalrous manner toward His Lady. There are also overt actions that transpire in his conduct toward her when she is in his company and vice versa.

Further there are qualities that summarize his character which lend to His Lady feeling safe, secure and stable in his presence. These qualities that a gentleman possess are in essence another form of “riches” if you will as they lend to providing an internal banquet table from which His Lady can partake of by way of him imparting what is due her as His Lady.

I understand that many disagree with the notion of chivalry. I do believe that perhaps it is due in part to not fully understanding how the impartations of chivalry do indeed contribute to the bond between a gentleman and His Lady. Nonetheless, some men do choose to conduct themselves in a manner that is indicative of the qualities of chivalry, thus incorporating these qualities into his moral code regardless of any opposition toward his choice to live a life that reflects what he deems right for he and His Lady.

A good evening to you!



porcelaine -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 7:22:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

To begin, forgive my unintentional delay in replying to your entry. I do agree that a man is responsible for his conduct at all times. However the subject of a gentleman conducting himself in a chivalrous manner toward a lady that he relates with is a different subject altogether. What I mean is there are subtleties that occur when a gentleman conducts himself in a chivalrous manner toward His Lady. There are also overt actions that transpire in his conduct toward her when she is in his company and vice versa.


Greetings Zevar,

Thank you but you needn't apologize. No offense was taken. :)

I don't know how to respond to this without saying more than I'd wish. However, I will note that I understand your perspective and I'm in agreement.

~porcelaine



Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 7:37:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

To begin, forgive my unintentional delay in replying to your entry. I do agree that a man is responsible for his conduct at all times. However the subject of a gentleman conducting himself in a chivalrous manner toward a lady that he relates with is a different subject altogether. What I mean is there are subtleties that occur when a gentleman conducts himself in a chivalrous manner toward His Lady. There are also overt actions that transpire in his conduct toward her when she is in his company and vice versa.


Greetings Zevar,

Thank you but you needn't apologize. No offense was taken. :)

I don't know how to respond to this without saying more than I'd wish. However, I will note that I understand your perspective and I'm in agreement.

~porcelaine



Greetings ~porcelaine:

I mean you no disrespect in saying the following:

Subtleties speak louder than a thousand words, aye lady?

In closing I say:
May the road rise to meet you in your going out and your coming in!

I wish you most well…



Firebirdseeking -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 7:56:20 PM)

Greetings, Zevar:

I think you are correct in your assumption that chivalry is lacking in both vanilla and in BDSM communities. While some "Dominants" may be confused about how to approach a submissive, in other words, they approach in the "big bad" mode, many also seem to assume they can approach with what to me is a very disrespectful, overtly sexual manner, not in good taste at all. For me, anyhow. How is that OK?

My dominant and soon to be husband is a man of both manners and chivalry.

Regarding feminism, while I agree that feminism turned some gender assumptions on their ears, it was never the goal to intimidate men, yet many men seem intimidated by not just feminism, but by strong women, which many submissives in fact are. Blaming feminism for men's insecurities, is like blaming civil rights for white insecurity. I fail to see the difference.



porcelaine -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 8:10:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

I mean you no disrespect in saying the following:

Subtleties speak louder than a thousand words, aye lady?

In closing I say:
May the road rise to meet you in your going out and your coming in!

I wish you most well…


Greetings Zevar,

Sometimes subtleties lead to errant assumptions that words can eradicate. Ideally you have a combination of the two whenever possible. I expounded on my original comment but I was unable to send it. Thank you for the well wishes. I extend the same to you.

~porcelaine



juliaoceania -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 8:21:14 PM)

My former dom was really into chivalry. I do not know how much of a community member he would be considered to be. He had a membership at the Lair (local club) for a while.

I love chivalrous behavior in the male species. I love doors opened for me, I love men that order for me, and I love men that think of my comfort, especially out in public. It tells me that they think of me, and it tells me that I am valued...

Just me, etc



Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 8:32:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking

Greetings, Zevar:

I think you are correct in your assumption that chivalry is lacking in both vanilla and in BDSM communities. While some "Dominants" may be confused about how to approach a submissive, in other words, they approach in the "big bad" mode, many also seem to assume they can approach with what to me is a very disrespectful, overtly sexual manner, not in good taste at all. For me, anyhow. How is that OK?

My dominant and soon to be husband is a man of both manners and chivalry.

Regarding feminism, while I agree that feminism turned some gender assumptions on their ears, it was never the goal to intimidate men, yet many men seem intimidated by not just feminism, but by strong women, which many submissives in fact are. Blaming feminism for men's insecurities, is like blaming civil rights for white insecurity. I fail to see the difference.



A Good Evening to you:

I do concur with your conclusion that simply because a man might be confused in terms of how to effectively impart his dominance in the company of a submissive lady, this does not allow any latitude or longitude for conduct that is overly sexually aggressive or otherwise rude or brutish actions.

I am preaching to the choir, so to speak, in saying this yet I will say that some men will never change these kind of ways. I will also say that as a man I find unrefined conduct altogether ineffective or otherwise counterproductive. Nonetheless there will always be a man that is willing to fight for what he believes in even if it is considered to be lacking chivalry and refined manners. I applaud a man to fight for what he believes to right and good. However when the conduct of a man is otherwise offensive in the company of a lady I do not remain silent.

Gender differences will never end. Nor will insecurities. All the same I would say. However a strong woman is not a threat to a man that is sure of who he is. Instead a strong woman is a threat to a man that has no clue who he is or how to effectively speak of this to a strong woman. Men do not emote as readily as women do. Therefore therein is the challenge. Self -examination is a tool which unfailingly sharpens iron with iron.

The qualites of chivalry on the other hand does give what is the right and duty of a man to reveal in his conduct at all times. As it is with a woman, chivalry is her right and duty to receive what is due her. Dignity has a way of not fading in my eyes for the lady I relate with. Nor do I find my willingness fading to treat all women equally with the dignity deserved. Not all women these days behave in a manner that draws chivalry from most men. However that which is of substance will forever remain. Such is chivalry for some gentlemen that is.

The best to you and yours…



Daddysredhead -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 8:52:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I love chivalrous behavior in the male species. I love doors opened for me, I love men that order for me, and I love men that think of my comfort, especially out in public. It tells me that they think of me, and it tells me that I am valued...


I agree with this.  Good manners and thoughtfulness make me feel very cared for and cherished. 

~ Red



Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 8:57:06 PM)

quote:

Greetings Zevar,

Sometimes subtleties lead to errant assumptions that words can eradicate. Ideally you have a combination of the two whenever possible. I expounded on my original comment but I was unable to send it. Thank you for the well wishes. I extend the same to you.

~porcelaine


Good Evening:

Thank you for your well wishes, comments, original contribution AND moreover for remaining on topic: "Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture"

Your further input regarding this subject is fully welcome.

Take care!



Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 9:15:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My former dom was really into chivalry. I do not know how much of a community member he would be considered to be. He had a membership at the Lair (local club) for a while.

I love chivalrous behavior in the male species. I love doors opened for me, I love men that order for me, and I love men that think of my comfort, especially out in public. It tells me that they think of me, and it tells me that I am valued...

Just me, etc


Good Evening julia:

I agree with you that the outcome of chivalry does afford a lady to feel the tangible effects of being valued. There are traits within chivalrous conduct that do enhance the character of man who sets himself in a determined manner to be a man that acts in a way that is refined toward His Lady AND among society.

Chivalry is greatly misunderstood among the man of today. When patterns that are less than respectful are accepted by society then a cyclical wheel of disregard can spin out of control thus a man tends to behave in a way that is less than chivalrous.

However conduct is subjective say some. I say take responsibility and aim to set forth in all you do as a man to reflect qualities that bring about a honorable results with your lady. Purpose to do that which is indicative of chivalry in some form. Lest the embers of regret shall hauntingly burn within the soul of a man.

Take good care of you!



juliaoceania -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 9:21:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Unless you're ready to bring out the hempen tunics, mead & green bread suppers, and a healthy dose of bubonic plague while you're at it, chivalry is out of place in today's society.  Unless by "chivalry" you mean something different from what the word really means (how to be a proper horseman in a society where the upper crust traveled on horseback).  But in that case I think you ought to state more precisely what you mean.  At least then we'll all understand what we're talking about.

I will never understand why people keep looking to fable and legend for "codes" explaining how we're supposed to behave in every situation.  Why not show some true courage and live by your OWN code?  Think it through, and then abide by it.  That earns my respect.


I always think of this when I think of the concept of Chivalry.... Chivalry only applied to those of a certain class, all those who were not noble were considered outside of the code of chivalry.. so while you might serenade a lady, write poetry for her... woo her with your exemplary knightly skills, you would rape the peasant girl in the village without a second thought.



Daddysredhead -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 9:58:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

I say take responsibility and aim to set forth in all you do as a man to reflect qualities that bring about honorable results with your lady. Purpose to do that which is indicative of chivalry in some form. Lest the embers of regret shall hauntingly burn within the soul of a man.


I love this.  [:)]



porcelaine -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/1/2010 10:05:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Your further input regarding this subject is fully welcome.



Thank you. I believe my original comments will suffice.

~porcelaine



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