RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture

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BitaTruble -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 10:12:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine Let me guess, you have a different opinion. chuckles For what it's worth there are a lot of men that talk about this and that's all it is. I think some women are skeptical because it is a ploy some use to entice before the bait and switch occurs. In my opinion real gentleman reveal themselves under less than pleasant circumstances, when angered, frustrated, etc. ~porcelaine Not just unpleasant circumstances either. I have found that the way someone treats waiters and other servers, people that they really don't know or with whom they don't have a relationship to be very, very telling of their general character. I am not impressed at all with talk or someone who continually touts themselves as a gentleman when their actions have already proven to me they are no such thing. Talk has almost always been quite cheap and easy to do so when I am out and about with Himself and he treats our waitress, cab driver or bellboy with respect and courtsey, that's what impresses me. I am proud to be in his company because while he would never, ever tout himself a gentleman or even consider himself refined .. he, by his action, proves to me that he is miles above men who talk the talk but fail, miserably, to walk the walk. He doesn't talk about it.. he just does it.

porcelaine -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 10:18:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble Not just unpleasant circumstances either. I have found that the way someone treats waiters and other servers, people that they really don't know or with whom they don't have a relationship to be very, very telling of their general character. I am not impressed at all with talk or someone who continually touts themselves as a gentleman when their actions have already proven to me they are no such thing. Talk has almost always been quite cheap and easy to do so when I am out and about with Himself and he treats our waitress, cab driver or bellboy with respect and courtsey, that's what impresses me. I am proud to be in his company because while he would never, ever tout himself a gentleman or even consider himself refined .. *he, by his action, proves to me that he is miles above men* who talk the talk but fail, miserably, to walk the walk. He doesn't talk about it.. he just does it*. Bingo! I've had some 'self described' gentleman behave in a manner that was pretty reprehensible. I'm leery of men that have to continually* reiterate that they're this or that. I often wonder who he's trying to convince - me or himself. I concur with your sentiments and find men that are gentleman rarely say it, they simply live it instead. ~porcelaine

DesFIP -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 10:27:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zevar gallantry, courtliness, loyalty, valor, courage, bravery, magnanimity, nobility, courtesy, courteousness, politeness, attentiveness, gentility, good manners, civility, kindness and consideration. My college major was medieval English literature. In addition I've studied in depth European lit during that time and as far back as the little Renaissance to the Renaissance proper. None of what you write are qualities sought after by knights at that time. And your idea of a knight comes from later literature, ripped apart from its historical roots. Knights showed courtesy to those of their social class and better, not to the lower. They would not have held the door for a serf or a servant, nor even for women of their class, only their superiors. Knights as are commonly thought of, as you think of them, are what were then called white knights. The term meant that the knight was wealthy and went jousting at tournaments for sport, as opposed to the majority who went from tourney to tourney seeking to win armor and money. A white knight was someone who could afford a body servant whose major job was to polish his armor to brightness. Regular knights, what are now considered black knights, couldn't afford that and kept them dark to prevent rusting; I think they used lamp black for the protective agent but won't swear to that. All knights considered themselves as entitled to sport with the lower classes, by riding through their fields after game, not caring that the villagers would starve as a result of the trampling of the crops. Raping village girls, uncaring of how it would affect them. Their women were kept safely locked up in the donjon (not the dungeon), the central keep of the castle, not allowed outside for fear of rape. But the same was not extended to others. Indeed, chivalry went so far as to espouse the droit de seigneur, the right of a ruling lord to spend the first night with any newly married girl on his lands, the better to tie everyone to him with ties of blood. Hardly what you would call chivalrous, raping a girl on her wedding night, or is it?

PeonForHer -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 11:15:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Is there a way of 'bringing out' the chivalry in a man? That's an interesting idea. Let me guess, you have a different opinion. chuckles For what it's worth there are a lot of men that talk about this and that's all it is. I think some women are skeptical because it is a ploy some use to entice before the bait and switch occurs. In my opinion real gentleman reveal themselves under less than pleasant circumstances, when angered, frustrated, etc. Heh. For once - I don't have much of a different opinion. Only various, disconnected thoughts. One is that chivalry in any sense that predates the modern era was tied not just to the way men (ideally) comported themselves, but to the way women were supposed to comport themselves, too. The second is that that early sense of chivalry has been romanticised to the degree almost of fantasy and never more so than its most well-known archetype, the Arthurian Legends. (If Arthur did exist it's likely he was one of the less-than-refined chieftans of the day - a far, far cry from the way he was later painted). Thirdly, once the word 'chivalry' had come to be more widely applied to, roughly, 'the codes of behaviour of ladies and gentlemen', it did place restrictions on women. The usually quite statuesque and stiff behaviour of the suffragettes (whose leaders were, in the main, very middle class women) didn't stop them being quickly cast as demented, crone-like non-females by their detractors. As 'non-females' - non-humans, even - of course 'chivalry' didn't apply to them. Fourthly there is, I think, even in the modern, looser meaning of 'chivalry', a sense in which women are meant to be fragile in certain ways. One way I've seen it put is, 'a man will do or x or y for you to make him feel big, strong and competent and underline your own lack of such qualities and dependency on him'. But that I read decades ago. Things have moved on and I think we've left at least some of those suspicions behind; likewise the bitterness and hostility that was associated with them. If chivalry means manners - particularly those regarding men's behaviour towards women - then a chivalrous man helps a woman with those things which make her life more difficult than they are for him. I think many of those things are pretty obvious (heavy lifting, protection, perhaps); some a quite a bit less so. I've never had grief from offering help in such things, either - not even from the most fiery and radical of the female friends I've had over the years. And it does cut both ways. There are things that most women I've met can do better than I can. (No, I'm not going to present a list here. I'm not that stupid. [;)]) When they do such things for me, or even for others, I think of it as 'ladylike' and it has had the effect on me, often, of thinking, 'right, she's a lady, she deserves the gentleman from me'.

ranja -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 11:47:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Is there a way of 'bringing out' the chivalry in a man? That's an interesting idea. And it does cut both ways. There are things that most women I've met can do better than I can. (No, I'm not going to present a list here. I'm not that stupid. [;)]) When they do such things for me, or even for others, I think of it as 'ladylike' and it has had the effect on me, often, of thinking, 'right, she's a lady, she deserves the gentleman from me'. so you knew

Marini -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 11:56:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble Not just unpleasant circumstances either. I have found that the way someone treats waiters and other servers, people that they really don't know or with whom they don't have a relationship to be very, very telling of their general character. I am not impressed at all with talk or someone who continually touts themselves as a gentleman when their actions have already proven to me they are no such thing. Talk has almost always been quite cheap and easy to do so when I am out and about with Himself and he treats our waitress, cab driver or bellboy with respect and courtsey, that's what impresses me. I am proud to be in his company because while he would never, ever tout himself a gentleman or even consider himself refined .. *he, by his action, proves to me that he is miles above men* who talk the talk but fail, miserably, to walk the walk. He doesn't talk about it.. he just does it*. Bingo! I've had some 'self described' gentleman behave in a manner that was pretty reprehensible. I'm leery of men that have to continually* reiterate that they're this or that. I often wonder who he's trying to convince - me or himself. I concur with your sentiments and find men that are gentleman rarely say it, they simply live it instead. ~porcelaine I am a gentleman, I am a gentleman, I am a gentleman. I am going to keep saying it over and over, until you agree with me, so I will finally shut up. Personally, I learned a long time ago to avoid screennames and people that insist on telling me they are: kind, sweet, handsome, smart, wonderful, etc. If you have to keep saying it, something is wrong. Actions are what will tell the real story. Spare me the words. Show me who or what you really are, and I will then know who or what you are all on my own. [sm=goodpost.gif] Be well! Take care of you!!! [:D]

porcelaine -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 12:27:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KurtAllen quote: before the bait and switch occurs Would eleminating the bait and switch be like seeing a woman stepping out of the shower without makeup before spending endless hours needlessly. I can't say. I'm not a big makeup aficionado and I always reveal myself without it when engaging. The man should have a clear idea of what he's getting. And some of us have great skin and look far younger than our years suggest. Why cover that up? [;)] ~porcelaine

leadership527 -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 1:01:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Indeed, chivalry went so far as to espouse the droit de seigneur, the right of a ruling lord to spend the first night with any newly married girl on his lands, the better to tie everyone to him with ties of blood. Hardly what you would call chivalrous, raping a girl on her wedding night, or is it? I have to agree Des. Overall I am not aware of any period in history that roughly corresponds to "the good old days". Insofar as currently held concepts of chivalry, I like to think of myself as a considerate person. I don't let the door slam in anyone's face... man or woman. If someone is going to be standing in the rain, it's going to be me. I almost always hold the car door for Carol or any other woman where the situation would allow for it. I notice plenty of male peers who are similar to me in those habits.

porcelaine -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 1:05:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer The second is that that early sense of chivalry has been romanticised to the degree almost of fantasy and never more so than its most well-known archetype, the Arthurian Legends. (If Arthur did exist it's likely he was one of the less-than-refined chieftans of the day - a far, far cry from the way he was later painted). I've intentionally addressed my remarks in terms of gentlemanly behavior. There are major drawbacks to the white knight and those that espouse that mentality usually need a damsel. quote: If chivalry means manners - particularly those regarding men's behaviour towards women - then a chivalrous man helps a woman with those things which make her life more difficult than they are for him. I think many of those things are pretty obvious (heavy lifting, protection, perhaps); some a quite a bit less so. I've never had grief from offering help in such things, either - not even from the most fiery and radical of the female friends I've had over the years. I believe the definition presented isn't chivalry at all. I think others have chimed in and pointed this out. quote: And it does cut both ways. There are things that most women I've met can do better than I can. (No, I'm not going to present a list here. I'm not that stupid. [;)]) When they do such things for me, or even for others, I think of it as 'ladylike' and it has had the effect on me, often, of thinking, 'right, she's a lady, she deserves the gentleman from me'. That's it in the nutshell. Well stated. [;)] ~porcelaine

sirsholly -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 1:16:47 PM)
quote: Chivalry does seem to be unheard of and not widely practiced among men in the society of Western Culture. The key word is practiced. Chivalry can be real, or a well practiced act. Only time will tell if he is a knight in shining armour or a doofus in tin foil.

PeonForHer -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 1:34:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine If chivalry means manners - particularly those regarding men's behaviour towards women - then a chivalrous man helps a woman with those things which make her life more difficult than they are for him. I think many of those things are pretty obvious (heavy lifting, protection, perhaps); some a quite a bit less so. I've never had grief from offering help in such things, either - not even from the most fiery and radical of the female friends I've had over the years. quote: I believe the definition presented isn't chivalry at all. I think others have chimed in and pointed this out. Just a quickie on that: I don't think we need go by the original definition. It's useful to look at a word's etymology for all kinds of reasons (as people have, here), but a definition isn't necessarily 'more correct' just because it's older. After all, some say that the word 'fuck' once meant 'to put a seed in a hole'. Interesting if true - but it doesn't mean that now. [;)]

realwhiteknight -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 3:04:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer The second is that that early sense of chivalry has been romanticised to the degree almost of fantasy and never more so than its most well-known archetype, the Arthurian Legends. (If Arthur did exist it's likely he was one of the less-than-refined chieftans of the day - a far, far cry from the way he was later painted). I've intentionally addressed my remarks in terms of gentlemanly behavior. There are major drawbacks to the white knight and those that espouse that mentality usually need a damsel. quote: If chivalry means manners - particularly those regarding men's behaviour towards women - then a chivalrous man helps a woman with those things which make her life more difficult than they are for him. I think many of those things are pretty obvious (heavy lifting, protection, perhaps); some a quite a bit less so. I've never had grief from offering help in such things, either - not even from the most fiery and radical of the female friends I've had over the years. I believe the definition presented isn't chivalry at all. I think others have chimed in and pointed this out. quote: And it does cut both ways. There are things that most women I've met can do better than I can. (No, I'm not going to present a list here. I'm not that stupid. [;)]) When they do such things for me, or even for others, I think of it as 'ladylike' and it has had the effect on me, often, of thinking, 'right, she's a lady, she deserves the gentleman from me'. Someone called? [:D] I do agree that chivalry probably never existed, at least not in the way of the popular definition. I haven't read through this thread but it looks interesting... all I know is that I started my account here again with the name I did hoping I'd find someone that was and all I found was harassment and idiocy. I believe chivalry should exist, but I've yet to experience it. I'm not sure why people think it ever think it existed, really. [:o]

realwhiteknight -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 3:19:29 PM)
Also. Thank you, thank you, thank you for this post. I thought it was just me that noticed this. It feels like the men drawn to bdsm are in it for themselves, and using women in the process, without any thought to those 'old fashioned' ideals and mores (just the fact that they are so commonly referred to as 'old-fashioned' is telling in itself.) I got an email from someone a while back explaining 'open relationships' and how they are a movement away from morals and ethics, which are "unecessary" and somehow, "oppressive"- his words. (I called him out on this, using the obvious and harsh reasoning, naturally.) Is our society going down the tubes, have we become pathologically narcissistic and childish, or is it just me? At least in the past, people tried to be moral, or to keep up the front of being moral, thereby raising morality in general.

porcelaine -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 4:33:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Personally, I learned a long time ago to avoid screennames and people that insist on telling me they are: kind, sweet, handsome, smart, wonderful, etc. If you have to keep saying it, something is wrong. I've often felt the same and my experiences have proven that whenever the horn is tooted without fail the advertising is pretty darned false. [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Just a quickie on that: I don't think we need go by the original definition. It's useful to look at a word's etymology for all kinds of reasons (as people have, here), but a definition isn't necessarily 'more correct' just because it's older. After all, some say that the word 'fuck' once meant 'to put a seed in a hole'. Interesting if true - but it doesn't mean that now. While that may be true the current associations are typically attributed to a gentleman versus chivalry in my opinion. But since you brought it up, perhaps you can enlighten me regarding the nuances of chivalry in its original form. For curiosity's sake of course. No quickie necessary. Take your time. [;)] ~porcelaine

realwhiteknight -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 4:57:17 PM)
quote: I believe the definition presented isn't chivalry at all. I think others have chimed in and pointed this out. quote: Just a quickie on that: I don't think we need go by the original definition. It's useful to look at a word's etymology for all kinds of reasons (as people have, here), but a definition isn't necessarily 'more correct' just because it's older. After all, some say that the word 'fuck' once meant 'to put a seed in a hole'. Interesting if true - but it doesn't mean that now. [;)] Yes, I thoroughly agree. I wonder if when people do this, if they think that in some way the older meaning is somehow 'more true' or even, the history of where the word stems from was somehow better than the present reality. Words carry all sorts of historical and social meanings...

Icarys -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 5:23:38 PM)
quote: After all, some say that the word 'fuck' once meant 'to put a seed in a hole' Actually it kinda does if you think about it. [:D]

Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 6:36:13 PM)
Greetings Shadow-tiger: I agree with the concept of practicing what we believe and know to be true in all we do. Lest we forget that what goes around does indeed return full circle. Thank you for your contribution. Take care!

PeonForHer -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 6:51:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine While that may be true the current associations are typically attributed to a gentleman versus chivalry in my opinion. But since you brought it up, perhaps you can enlighten me regarding the nuances of chivalry in its original form. For curiosity's sake of course. No quickie necessary. Take your time. [;)] No, not really - DesFip and others have already done a great job on that, as far as I'm concerned. For me - and my dictionary - 'gentlemanly' and 'chivalrous' are pretty much synonymous. Or, perhaps 'chivalrous' means 'very gentlemanly'. Has anyone else remarked that only British men can properly be either gentlemen, or chivalrous? I hope not, because that would be wrong and I shall therefore make every effort not to say it myself.

Zevar -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 7:34:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aldompdx In my experience, the practice of chivalry is not a matter of eastern or western cultures, but of truly civilized cultures which practice mutual respect. I lived in an eastern culture for several years, and despite the cultural ideals, the actual practice tended to be misogynistic. I think that "old school" BDSMers were more aligned with chivalry. Then the internet happened. Chivalry arises from self respect and self discipline. It is "unappealing" to narcissists, because it requires empathy and sharing. Good Evening aldompdx: It is as always good to read your entries. I usually follow your thoughts quite well AND tend to share in some of how you believe and phrase yourself when speaking. Until you mentioned it I never really considered that a narcissist would despise chivalry due to the following: * self absorbed * vain * egotistical * selfish * conceited * self-important * self-loving * self-admiring Considering from this viewpoint then of course your proposition is accurate as in how chivalry does arises from self respect and self discipline AND that it is "unappealing" to narcissists, because it requires empathy and sharing. I agree! I would also add because it requires moreover for a man to be truthful at all times. Not truthful in the worldly sense as in blasting with some droning opinion that lifts the ego to the sky on a pillow of egotistical posturing. Instead truthful in the sense that requires him to defeat the internal dragons and demons that persist in process of gaining wisdom VS knowledge. The drone of the human ego, that we all might battle, does rear its hydra head to in fact force images of internal doubt that are seated in roots of imaginary importance to the surface. Factually speaking chivalry does require a man to think of others as in a sort of selfless way that is practiced overall. Living a chivalrous life does indeed sift the wheat from the chaff while threshing the immaturely out of a man so that when he does rise from the ashes into a flight of living he knows of chivalry to not be something of barbarism yet gentlemanly strength of character that speaks for itself through daily living. Keep in mind that his every motive is indeed for the good of those he serves through his vow to chivalry regardless of any opposition from the belligerent among society. For it is known that evil can only thrive when good is forsaken or when a man chooses to not stand ready to do the duty that is his to fulfill among those he loves and within society. Chivalry does require an irrevocable vow within a man. Loyalty too is a quality of chivalry that cannot ever be cast out from the center and circumference of a man. A man that is vowed to live his life to his utmost best in a chivalrous manner knows that the things worth living for also come with the chords of sacrificial acts of irreversible courage. Manhood demands much undoubtedly of a man. The Code by which a man lives does require that the element of compromise be at all times forsaken. Perhaps the following link might be of interest, perhaps not. http://www.chivalrynow.net/ Again, thank for your contribution. I do enjoy reading entries of like-minded others. I bid you strength, courage and peace!

littlewonder -> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture (8/2/2010 7:45:29 PM)
I keep reading through the posts here about chivalry = opening doors for a woman, pulling her chair out, etc... wonders if any subs/slaves here ever actually do those things for their Doms/Masters...I mean it just seems kinda backwards to me.

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