RE: Topping from the bottom ? (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 10:57:02 AM)

quote:

I feel the same way about this phrase that I do about infidelity -- if a dominant individual and submissive individual are comfortable together, there will be no question between them about how the yielding process is going and who holds the authority, regardless of what it looks like to anyone else, just like a couple who are happy and healthy together will have a relationship that is honest and neither party will break trust with the other, regardless of what it looks like to an outsider.


This



lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 11:07:08 AM)

im toying with the idea though that too much onus is being put on the Dominant to control the situation.  its a two way street, the Dominant can only control if the submissive submits. if the submissive is forever finding sneaky ways to have things their way rather than go the Dominants way then i would call that TFTB.  i think it is a case of the submissive not giving over that control, if they dont the Dominant shouldnt force it, but i dont believe that it is always the Dominants fault that a sub cant or wont relinquish all control and attempts to steer the relationship in a direction they want.

its actually about letting go and learning to.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 11:29:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

im toying with the idea though that too much onus is being put on the Dominant to control the situation.  its a two way street, the Dominant can only control if the submissive submits. if the submissive is forever finding sneaky ways to have things their way rather than go the Dominants way then i would call that TFTB.  i think it is a case of the submissive not giving over that control, if they dont the Dominant shouldnt force it, but i dont believe that it is always the Dominants fault that a sub cant or wont relinquish all control and attempts to steer the relationship in a direction they want.

its actually about letting go and learning to.


I would agree with this to a point -- however, I think that part of being the dominant party in a relationship includes recognizing when a certain individual is not in a position to be comfortable or capable of yielding to the extent that one requires and initiating the discussion that will either move that situation in the direction of becoming closer to the expectation, or end the situation so that both parties can find a more... amenable situation. I believe that this -is- the primary responsibility of the one who holds authority in the relationship, and is a reflection of that individual's capacity to truly recognize the state of hir relationship and initiate necessary action. That -is-, for me, what a dominant party does.

Sometimes, there is an individual who -wants- to yield, but for internal reasons, xhe finds hirself unable to do so. Unfortunately, many dominant-type individuals will take someone like this on as a submissive partner, only to discover that the submissive individual is constitutionally unable to yield... and rather than letting the "submissive" partner know that the dichotomy has been seen, noted, and then working with that submissive individual to take action to resolve the dichotomy, they, instead, play "ostrich", pretending to hold "control" over this individual who has never truly yielded authority to them... this isn't "topping from the bottom"... it is an ineffective an unhealthy relationship, based on a foundation of fantasy and fallacy -- and both parties are liable to become jaded, feel betrayed, and become even less able to enter into healthy relationships if this kind of situation goes on for any length of time.

Calla



porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 12:05:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

im toying with the idea though that too much onus is being put on the Dominant to control the situation.  its a two way street, the Dominant can only control if the submissive submits. if the submissive is forever finding sneaky ways to have things their way rather than go the Dominants way then i would call that TFTB.  i think it is a case of the submissive not giving over that control, if they dont the Dominant shouldnt force it, but i dont believe that it is always the Dominants fault that a sub cant or wont relinquish all control and attempts to steer the relationship in a direction they want.

its actually about letting go and learning to.


lally,

When I purchase a product that fails to perform in the manner I'd hoped who's fault is it? Do I balk about it being defective or recognize that I probably didn't choose the right model and I need something more suitable instead? The buck stops with the top. The idea that this person is creeping around like a cat burglar is mind boggling. If you drive the car off the lot without taking a test spin don't be surprised when things crop up that you never anticipated. Can you foreshadow it all? Never. But you can make sure that you know what's under the hood and that it suits YOUR purposes before you drive off.


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I would agree with this to a point -- however, I think that part of being the dominant party in a relationship includes recognizing when a certain individual is not in a position to be comfortable or capable of yielding to the extent that one requires and initiating the discussion that will either move that situation in the direction of becoming closer to the expectation, or end the situation so that both parties can find a more... amenable situation. I believe that this -is- the primary responsibility of the one who holds authority in the relationship, and is a reflection of that individual's capacity to truly recognize the state of hir relationship and initiate necessary action. That -is-, for me, what a dominant party does.


All of this!

quote:

Sometimes, there is an individual who -wants- to yield, but for internal reasons, xhe finds hirself unable to do so. Unfortunately, many dominant-type individuals will take someone like this on as a submissive partner, only to discover that the submissive individual is constitutionally unable to yield... and rather than letting the "submissive" partner know that the dichotomy has been seen, noted, and then working with that submissive individual to take action to resolve the dichotomy, they, instead, play "ostrich", pretending to hold "control" over this individual who has never truly yielded authority to them... this isn't "topping from the bottom"... it is an ineffective an unhealthy relationship, based on a foundation of fantasy and fallacy -- and both parties are liable to become jaded, feel betrayed, and become even less able to enter into healthy relationships if this kind of situation goes on for any length of time.


This. Well stated. [;)]

~porcelaine



porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 12:11:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

im toying with the idea though that too much onus is being put on the Dominant to control the situation.  its a two way street, the Dominant can only control if the submissive submits. if the submissive is forever finding sneaky ways to have things their way rather than go the Dominants way then i would call that TFTB.  i think it is a case of the submissive not giving over that control, if they dont the Dominant shouldnt force it, but i dont believe that it is always the Dominants fault that a sub cant or wont relinquish all control and attempts to steer the relationship in a direction they want.

its actually about letting go and learning to.


Or better put, if I hire someone that fails to perform as expected they are responsible for their behavior. However, it doesn't change the fact that I hired the schmuck that didn't/wouldn't do his job. You can't separate the two. I'm accountable for bringing him on board. The idea that one should choose wisely goes in both directions. Suggesting that the submissive is at fault for failing to submit without recognizing the dominant chose a girl that won't/can't yield is unfathomable to me.

~porcelaine



vagabondduo -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 12:18:03 PM)

quote:


Topping from the bottom = the bottom directing the sensations given by the top


CLAPS!!!  I like this definition. 

If my Dom tells me to give him a massage, I am going to give him that massage.  Since I am the doer, the one giving the sensations I am the top in this scenario.  My Dom who would be the doee, the one being given the sensations, would be the bottom.  I am not going to refuse to give him that massage because people might consider that I am topping from the bottom.  How silly!! 

People who consider topping from the bottom as always an unwanted behavior or a lack in a Dominant seem to not really realize what they are thinking.  They forget that there are perfectly good reasons for a Dominant to want to be the bottom while not giving up any authority to the submissive.  It does not have to have anything to do with any manipulation by the submissive. 

As in my example, Gary loves a massage.  He thinks it's great to be passive and have someone rub his sore muscles.  Enjoying a massage does not mean he is any less a Dominant. 



juliaoceania -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 12:39:21 PM)

I think of being a bottom or being a top as completely outside a D/s dynamic. I could have someone whip me tomorrow, and I would tell em how I wanted it done, and I would not be in any way shape or form submitting to that person. To me, bottoming has nothing to do with submission. People bottom in public play all of the time and they are not submitting by doing so..

But that is just me



lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 12:53:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I would agree with this to a point -- however, I think that part of being the dominant party in a relationship includes recognizing when a certain individual is not in a position to be comfortable or capable of yielding to the extent that one requires and initiating the discussion that will either move that situation in the direction of becoming closer to the expectation, or end the situation so that both parties can find a more... amenable situation. I believe that this -is- the primary responsibility of the one who holds authority in the relationship, and is a reflection of that individual's capacity to truly recognize the state of hir relationship and initiate necessary action. That -is-, for me, what a dominant party does.


i agree.  i was simply introducing the possibility that TFTB isnt always the fault of the Dom and that i do think it does occur, for whatever reasons, be it that the dynamics are wrong or the submissive is fundamentally unable to give up that control.

the question was what is TFTB -

what happens if this situation persists to a point where it becomes untenable is down to the Dominant.



lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 1:04:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

im toying with the idea though that too much onus is being put on the Dominant to control the situation.  its a two way street, the Dominant can only control if the submissive submits. if the submissive is forever finding sneaky ways to have things their way rather than go the Dominants way then i would call that TFTB.  i think it is a case of the submissive not giving over that control, if they dont the Dominant shouldnt force it, but i dont believe that it is always the Dominants fault that a sub cant or wont relinquish all control and attempts to steer the relationship in a direction they want.

its actually about letting go and learning to.


Or better put, if I hire someone that fails to perform as expected they are responsible for their behavior. However, it doesn't change the fact that I hired the schmuck that didn't/wouldn't do his job. You can't separate the two. I'm accountable for bringing him on board. The idea that one should choose wisely goes in both directions. Suggesting that the submissive is at fault for failing to submit without recognizing the dominant chose a girl that won't/can't yield is unfathomable to me.

~porcelaine



absolutely, i agree.  but we are all capable of making a mistake based on what we think we know of the person stepping up for the job.

recently ive found myself in a situation where i thought i was going into business with a straight, ethical business woman and i have recently discovered this not to be the case.  ive made similar bad calls on Doms too [:D].  we go on what we believe to be the case.  we cant be held accountable in all cases when someone presents as the real deal only to discover theyre masters of manipulation and actually in this womans case, truely believes she is behaving reasonably.

its when the TFTB isnt addressed or the Dominant is themselves incapable of dominance and accuses the sub of not being submissive or of topping from the bottom that it starts to become the irritant being discussed here.

i just wanted to suggest that TFTB is something that can occur and isnt always the fault of the Dominant.



private81 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 1:08:06 PM)

Wow, this is new to me. It's good to learn as much as possible from everyone here. Topping from the bottom put a weird look on my face but after reading about it from the more experienced on here, then now I understand. It's kinky and sounds fun though.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 1:25:10 PM)

Nicely stated, lally and calla.  Actually, everyone on here has stated their points in a well-reasoned manner.

I happen to agree that, just as there are times when a dominant is not how he presents him/herself but is rather an insecure individual whose "dominance" is based on manipulation, bullying, and abuse and is "domineering" rather than "dominance",  there are times that you find that a submissive is not all that she presents herself as and you find yourself dealing with a situation in which the submissive does not yield or yields when it suits her purpose more so than the dynamic's purpose or the dominant's purpose.  What the dominant does with this situation...now that it is known...is up to him/her.  Letting it occur over and over again and letting it go on when the dominant has taken note and has attempted to correct the situation but has met with failure is no longer a case of the submissive "topping from the bottom" but a failure on the dominant's part to face up to and resolve a ineffective D/s dynamic.

The submissive may well be submissive...but not to that dominant.  The dominant may well be dominant...but not for that submissive. 



leadership527 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 1:53:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
absolutely, i agree.  but we are all capable of making a mistake based on what we think we know of the person stepping up for the job.

And this, I think is the heart of porcelaine's and my shared viewpoint here. If I'm the dominant then the mistake was mine. My job is to fix it, not whine about role definitions. If I've hired the wrong employee, then I need to fire them and get a proper one. The fault was mine and the responsibility to fix it is also mine.



porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 1:58:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

absolutely, i agree.  but we are all capable of making a mistake based on what we think we know of the person stepping up for the job.


lally,

Of course. But in the end the buck stops with me. Either I'm the D or I'm not. I see failure in pretty definitive terms and I recognize my part in the calamity. I can't lead effectively without doing so.

quote:

we go on what we believe to be the case.  we cant be held accountable in all cases when someone presents as the real deal only to discover theyre masters of manipulation and actually in this womans case, truely believes she is behaving reasonably.


Manipulation requires involvement from both parties. If I failed to believe what was proposed the deception could not occur. That is where my attention goes. It's important to understand where my thinking went awry to alleviate repetition. Sometimes it isn't outright deceit but a mutual belief in an ideal that never takes place.

quote:

its when the TFTB isnt addressed or the Dominant is themselves incapable of dominance and accuses the sub of not being submissive or of topping from the bottom that it starts to become the irritant being discussed here.


Honest communication coupled with an understanding of ones competency and the other persons (in some measure) is always ideal. But as with most things our definitions of what is or isn't acceptable will vary as will the application of balanced leadership too. [;)]

quote:

i just wanted to suggest that TFTB is something that can occur and isnt always the fault of the Dominant.


Fault is a little strong for my tastes. As others have mentioned there can be positive instances where this is ideal and even necessary. Insubordination can happen but its occurrence isn't always intentional or maliciously inclined. It's my responsibility to determine its root, address it, and create a workable solution that's mutually beneficial.

~porcelaine



jujubeeMB -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 3:02:29 PM)

You've all responded quite brilliantly already, and I have nothing of value to add, but just wanted to say: I cannot stand the phrase "topping from the bottom." The only time I've ever heard that phrase was in entirely inappropriate moments that were more an attempt to win an argument by jerking it into the dynamic (I'm not 24/7) than anything remotely having to do with power exchange line-crossing. I get the concept - sub manipulates Dom into doing what s/he wants - but as other have said (notably porcelaine's brilliant dog story), it's not possible.

It's quite simple, really. If I can manipulate you into doing what I want and you're aware of that fact, don't like it, but do it anyway (or whine about how I'm topping from the bottom), you don't have control over me. If I attempt to manipulate you into doing something that I want and you smile to yourself at how hard I'm trying to get something from you and then realize that you get to decide whether to do it or not, you have control over me. And for the most part, if someone submissive is attempting to manipulate a situation in an other-than-playful manner, you need to sit down and have an "is everything ok" conversation, because that's usually a sign that person doesn't feel they can just be honest and straight forward about what they want/need. A good Dominant will note the subversive behavior and realize that there's a problem in communication.



lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 5:19:57 PM)

 
funnily enough, ive just had a convo with my D on the phone thats kinda along these lines, we were having a giggle about 'types' we've spoken to on the phone and he did this brilliant welsh accent of this woman who was saying 'im fiesty - youll have to be strong and take my submission'.  He didnt pursue that one because thats just not his idea of how submission works for Him.   for someone else it might be.  but being told He would have to 'take her down' and force her submission struck as being more about the Dominant playing according to how the sub wanted it played rather than the Dominant taking the reins and leading.

now i know people are going to chime in and say, yeah, but im strong and i need to be Dominated in order for my submission to take hold and to varying degrees we are all like that.  and if a Dominant is attracted to that level of aggressive Dominance and enjoys the challenge of breaking through a wall of fiest then cool.  but i would argue that to some extent that is TFTB - and there are quite a number of profiles that 'speak' in this tone, ive read a few myself.  nothing wrong with them, but for me, anyway, they seem to be missing the point of Ds as i understand it.

if we are discussing TFTB as opposed to how a Dominant deals with TFTB, then that is just an example of how it can manifest. 



leadership527 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 5:30:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
It's quite simple, really. If I can manipulate you into doing what I want and you're aware of that fact, don't like it, but do it anyway (or whine about how I'm topping from the bottom), you don't have control over me. If I attempt to manipulate you into doing something that I want and you smile to yourself at how hard I'm trying to get something from you and then realize that you get to decide whether to do it or not, you have control over me. And for the most part, if someone submissive is attempting to manipulate a situation in an other-than-playful manner, you need to sit down and have an "is everything ok" conversation, because that's usually a sign that person doesn't feel they can just be honest and straight forward about what they want/need. A good Dominant will note the subversive behavior and realize that there's a problem in communication.

*nods* ALL of this... especially the bolded parts.



porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 6:11:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

now i know people are going to chime in and say, yeah, but im strong and i need to be Dominated in order for my submission to take hold and to varying degrees we are all like that.  and if a Dominant is attracted to that level of aggressive Dominance and enjoys the challenge of breaking through a wall of fiest then cool.  but i would argue that to some extent that is TFTB - and there are quite a number of profiles that 'speak' in this tone, ive read a few myself.  nothing wrong with them, but for me, anyway, they seem to be missing the point of Ds as i understand it.

if we are discussing TFTB as opposed to how a Dominant deals with TFTB, then that is just an example of how it can manifest. 


Force is a staple of some dynamics and of interest to both parties. There are dominants that find that demeanor appealing who bristle at more pliant personalities. They enjoy the challenge. Difference doesn't mean it's topping from the bottom but merely a different expression of their submission instead. There's a variety of flavors and sometimes that's forgotten.

~porcelaine



NuevaVida -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/5/2010 9:30:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

now i know people are going to chime in and say, yeah, but im strong and i need to be Dominated in order for my submission to take hold and to varying degrees we are all like that.  and if a Dominant is attracted to that level of aggressive Dominance and enjoys the challenge of breaking through a wall of fiest then cool.  but i would argue that to some extent that is TFTB - and there are quite a number of profiles that 'speak' in this tone, ive read a few myself.  nothing wrong with them, but for me, anyway, they seem to be missing the point of Ds as i understand it.

if we are discussing TFTB as opposed to how a Dominant deals with TFTB, then that is just an example of how it can manifest. 


A submissive or slave wanting/needing "take down" and matching herself with a dominant who will provide that, is no more topping from the bottom than a submissive or slave who doesn't want "take down" and matching herself with a dominant who isn't like that.

It's simply a matter of matching yourself to the right person.

And really, if the dominant agrees to do something the submissive prefers, it's still the dominant making that choice. Therefore, there is no TFTB.  My owner frequently makes decisions based on what will benefit me, when it is clear that such choice will benefit our relationship.  Sometimes his choice is not what I prefer, sometimes it is.  In either case, He is chosing.  He is leading.  He is making decisions with or without my input.  But they are still his decisions.  He is still the authority.  I mean, if you ask your D if you can have a glass of water, and he says yes, are you TFTB? 



lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 2:07:44 AM)

.......... and yet apparently she kept on putting people off, or so she said.  

as i said above, for some that works, i agrree and thats GREAT, but what im also saying is that there are some subs who are TFTBing all over the place and maybe not even realising thats what theyre doing

the point of this thread was to ask what TFTB is - im trying and failing, clearly, to explore that for the OP.  to say it never happens and when it does its all the fault of the Dominant is inaccurate in my view.

im not at all saying that those who enjoy challenging their Dominant is TFTB if the Dominant enjoys it and encourages it.  what i am saying is that for some subs its hard to completely let go and hand over control and there are times, and jeesus, ive done it myself, when they push for what they want or try to escape something they dont want.

the very part of submission that is the hardest is in letting go, handing over control.  and yes the Dominant is then 'asked' to deal with it.  but that wasnt what the OP was asking about.  the OP was asking what TFTB is and in my view its when a sub cant for whatever reason, comfortably relinquish sufficient control in order for the Dominant to dominate effectively and attempts to manipulate in order to avoid submission.  or generally drives the relationship in the direction they want.

we used to have threads where subs came on here talking about how bad theyd been and now theyre dom is going to spank them (boohoo) - what i read in those threads were subs wanting punishment spankings and manipulating their Dominant through bad behaviour to get that punishment spanking -  and yes, i know maybe the Dominant enjoyed the whole punishment thing - but when you read between the lines there, its the sub manipulating the dominant.  when this was pointed out to them they backed off and went away with a clearer perspective on what they were doing.

maybe the Dom was new too and was learning and enjoyed the punishment dynamic aswell, but maybe just maybe the inexperienced dominant was actually trying to get a handle on the whole thing and got caught up on the kink without realising that the sub was leading the relaionship the whole time.  inexperience doesnt automatically mean the Dominant is PANTS at dominating and many newbies come on here with punishment spankings on the brain - but even in its most innocent guise of just two people enjoying that kink, it is still the sub TFTBing to get what they want.

i am not at all saying that when a sub asks for something or baulks at something they are TFTBing.  what i am saying is that on occasions, generally when a sub is new and maybe has a newbie Dom too, this does happen.  its about getting the power exchange right and it doesnt always happen off the bat.

what the Dom does about that is in the next chapter



pattayonacracker -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 2:46:20 AM)

funny how the first time i clicked onto the message boards this question should be here when today my Sir told me that i in fact had just topped from the bottom.
i'll preface wih the fact that i was always finding myself in a kinky nilla type relationship rather than a D/s one. This said it's obvious that i don't have any eperience in a 24/7 relationship. i am with Sir 24/7 but it's only been about 10 days so far. man-o-man have i got lots to learn!
Sir was leaving for work this morning already running late, He was kissing me goodbye and i touched Him inappropriately, and He backed away telling me that i didn't have permission to do so, and that it was topping from the bottom, and after letting me know that it was not to happen again, i appologised, and He left out the door, well being emotional because all i want to do is please Him and i had messed up the tears started, then He reopened the door to ask me if i understood, saw me in tears and asked why i was crying, all i could say was i didn't know that was what i did. {oh man here comes the tears again,,,,} but anyways, Sir came back in the house, and hugged me telling me that it wasn't that big a deal, and that He knows that i have no training, this is my first real experience in any D/s relationship. i did feel better but dang how i hate to mess up. To hear Him say that i did something wrong, hurts, is it always like this for everyone when you make a mistake? In my 10 days here He said that i have done so much better than any traind slave that He's had before, i know with the proper training i can do my Sir proud, but the dissapointing looks hurt so bad. No ones perfect but i want to be the best me that i can be. *sighs* i'll stop whining,, sorry if i wasn't supposed to put this here.
pat_tay_ona_cracker



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