RE: Topping from the bottom ?

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lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 4:08:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pattayonacracker funny how the first time i clicked onto the message boards this question should be here when today my Sir told me that i in fact had just topped from the bottom. i'll preface wih the fact that i was always finding myself in a kinky nilla type relationship rather than a D/s one. This said it's obvious that i don't have any eperience in a 24/7 relationship. i am with Sir 24/7 but it's only been about 10 days so far. man-o-man have i got lots to learn! Sir was leaving for work this morning already running late, He was kissing me goodbye and i touched Him inappropriately, and He backed away telling me that i didn't have permission to do so, and that it was topping from the bottom, and after letting me know that it was not to happen again, i appologised, and He left out the door, well being emotional because all i want to do is please Him and i had messed up the tears started, then He reopened the door to ask me if i understood, saw me in tears and asked why i was crying, all i could say was i didn't know that was what i did. {oh man here comes the tears again,,,,} but anyways, Sir came back in the house, and hugged me telling me that it wasn't that big a deal, and that He knows that i have no training, this is my first real experience in any D/s relationship. i did feel better but dang how i hate to mess up. To hear Him say that i did something wrong, hurts, is it always like this for everyone when you make a mistake? In my 10 days here He said that i have done so much better than any traind slave that He's had before, i know with the proper training i can do my Sir proud, but the dissapointing looks hurt so bad. No ones perfect but i want to be the best me that i can be. sighs i'll stop whining,, sorry if i wasn't supposed to put this here. pat_tay_ona_cracker he gave you a hug and told you its not that big a deal - so you need to take that on board and move on with this. but yes, dissappointing is horrible and is what, most often, makes us try so hard not to. so now you know, theres no 'inapropritate' touchy feely unless invited to do so. you assumed and he corrected you. let it go and realise that its all about learning his way of wanting things as you go along. if it makes you feel any better im TFTBing right now. [&:] - ive just come on to find a cmail from my D pointing out that i should be using my writing energy on my book rather than here. the thing is im acutely aware that ive 'sort of' ignored him and come here anyway - so now im off. but dont beat youreself up and try to not drag this out when he gets home. he's made his position clear, he's corrected you, now let it go. xx

NuevaVida -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 7:54:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 i am not at all saying that when a sub asks for something or baulks at something they are TFTBing. what i am saying is that on occasions, generally when a sub is new and maybe has a newbie Dom too, this does happen. its about getting the power exchange right and it doesnt always happen off the bat. Hi lally, I'm going to respectfully disagree, but I understand your point of view. I still hold that no matter what the reason, who is new, or who is experienced, if the submissive/slave is allowed to behave in a certain manner, then it's an allowed behavior by the dominant. Whether intentional or not, the accountability goes back to who is in charge. If undesired behavior is allowed to continue, he is not in charge. Therefore he is not dominating the situation, therefore he is allowing the bottom to top. And in that case, TFTB is an allowed behavior, no matter how you slice it. Too often it is used (most often, I'd guess) to criticize a submissive for doing things wrong. But when you peel the layers away, it is clear to me, that whomever is in charge is allowing it - for whatever reason that might exist. quote: what the Dom does about that is in the next chapter I agree. If he puts a stop to it, no TFTB has occurred, just an unsuccessful attempt. If he does not put a stop to it (even if it's just because he doesn't see it), he is allowing it. And if he is allowing it, accusing his slave of committing such a crime (as is what often happens) is ridiculous, in my view, as it is a shared crime in which he is an accomplice.

lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 10:37:06 AM)
hi NV, i suppose what ive failed to underpin is that TFTB can happen for five minutes flat and be corrected. to say that it doesnt exist however is just not being realistic here. people are people, they make mistakes. it doesnt have to be a whole big thing, just a momentary lapse in an otherwise good relationship and then the Dom is on it. what i felt was being said was that it never happened and when it did it was the failure of the Dominant every time. its taking too much responsibility away from the submissive who is or might be trying to get their way on something. it happens, submissive are not paragons of virtue and we are not perfect and speaking for myself im certainly not beyond trying it on from time to time. the difference is i know what im doing and when i realise i am i stop doing it. the OP was asking what topping from the bottom was, not what the dominant, worth his salt should be doing about it. its about self governing really. if the sub doesnt know how to self govern she/he might TFTB and the Dom corrects her. a sub who can self govern and chooses not to is TFTBing. the sub is not always the victim of poor Domination, sometimes they are just wanting their own way and attempting to manipulate. to say that subs never ever, never, never do this is unrealistic - from my POV anyway, but maybe its just me. .

juliaoceania -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 10:57:16 AM)
Human beings tend to try to get their needs met. If they cannot get their needs met honestly, most will revert to dishonesty and manipulation eventually... or they will go some place else to get their needs met.. If I get hungry enough I will steal food, for example Human beings need companionship and love. We need this in different ways, but to function on a healthy level we all need it. I think that phrases like "topping from the bottom" that seek to reduce behavior to two dimensional linear aspects are indeed a sad reminder to me of what I think of as fantasy based D/s... This is just my view on it, but part of the reason I wonder how submissive I really am, and I know I could never be a slave-type person, is that the idea that I would be chastised for manipulating because my basic needs within the relationship were not met... well that is not a relationship I would want. First of all, if I have to manipulate someone to get my needs met, that means (for me at least) it is an unhealthy relationship. Second of all, if they are going to label me negatively because they can't remain in control over me because they are not meeting my needs, that means they are not empathetic enough to control me. I see taking responsibility for controlling a relationship on that level as something that the dom takes on. If there is some failure to control the submissive the way they want to, well either that sub is wrong for them or they are not doing the job they signed on for. The phrase topping from the bottom has been taken on as a way to chastise people for being human. I really dislike the way that is has begun to be used. I think it is derogatory and it gives couples unnecessary bullshit to worry about in their relationship. If this ain't fun, why are you doing it? And yes, I think life should be fun

Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 11:10:34 AM)
That's how I see it also. Or trying to demand the dom do stuff. quote: ORIGINAL: pains I see topping from the bottom as a form of manipulation ie. getting the Dom to do what the sub wants, provoking them to get the desired response. n some dynamics i guess it may be acceptable and seen as playful, very much depends on what the Dominant will and won't tolerate. p

porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:02:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida I'm going to respectfully disagree, but I understand your point of view. I still hold that no matter what the reason, who is new, or who is experienced, if the submissive/slave is allowed to behave in a certain manner, then it's an allowed behavior by the dominant. Whether intentional or not, the accountability goes back to who is in charge. If undesired behavior is allowed to continue, he is not in charge. Therefore he is not dominating the situation, therefore he is allowing the bottom to top. And in that case, TFTB is an allowed behavior, no matter how you slice it. Gorgeous, This is what happens when you label the hell out of everything. New people experience growing pains and they're learning the ropes individually and together. I'd never throw TFTB into the mix because it's probable neither are doing/allowing it to occur intentionally. If the submissive means to undermine his authority that's a big difference from making an honest mistake, especially if it happens because alternatives were not established by the dominant. Your sentiments echo mine on this subject. Not surprisingly. [;)] ~porcelaine

lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:06:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Human beings tend to try to get their needs met. If they cannot get their needs met honestly, most will revert to dishonesty and manipulation eventually... or they will go some place else to get their needs met.. If I get hungry enough I will steal food, for example Human beings need companionship and love. We need this in different ways, but to function on a healthy level we all need it. I think that phrases like "topping from the bottom" that seek to reduce behavior to two dimensional linear aspects are indeed a sad reminder to me of what I think of as fantasy based D/s... This is just my view on it, but part of the reason I wonder how submissive I really am, and I know I could never be a slave-type person, is that the idea that I would be chastised for manipulating because my basic needs within the relationship were not met... well that is not a relationship I would want. First of all, if I have to manipulate someone to get my needs met, that means (for me at least) it is an unhealthy relationship. Second of all, if they are going to label me negatively because they can't remain in control over me because they are not meeting my needs, that means they are not empathetic enough to control me. I see taking responsibility for controlling a relationship on that level as something that the dom takes on. If there is some failure to control the submissive the way they want to, well either that sub is wrong for them or they are not doing the job they signed on for. The phrase topping from the bottom has been taken on as a way to chastise people for being human. I really dislike the way that is has begun to be used. I think it is derogatory and it gives couples unnecessary bullshit to worry about in their relationship. If this ain't fun, why are you doing it? And yes, I think life should be fun i personally dislike the phrase too - its a catchall for everything from slight suberfuge to all out manipulation. but we work with what we've got i spose. the thing is some dont have to manipulate to get what they want, they can ask and they might receive, they might not and there are occasions when the 'might not' (today or ever) may result in some action from the sub, from sulking to walking - as you say we need what we need we want what we want and sometimes being a sub is hard to swallow. i think the thing is we all come from our own specific referrance point and tend to forget that what we've grown to understand and develop in our heads has taken a bit of time. actually, realistically i wonder if there are many submissives on here who can honestly say, hand on heart they havent wanted their own way on something and tried to get it. i know ive been manipulative at times, not in an overt way, but with body language and other womanly wiles i have up my sleeve to avoid something or get something. from a purist stance anything that comes from the submissives want-bank and that isnt on the menu 'today' but the submissive goes about trying to get, is, theoretically TFTBing.

juliaoceania -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:26:45 PM)
quote: actually, realistically i wonder if there are many submissives on here who can honestly say, hand on heart they havent wanted their own way on something and tried to get it. i know ive been manipulative at times, not in an overt way, but with body language and other womanly wiles i have up my sleeve to avoid something or get something. from a purist stance anything that comes from the submissives want-bank and that isnt on the menu 'today' but the submissive goes about trying to get, is, theoretically TFTBing. Here is how it works in my reality.... I want someone that has the final say. I also want someone that does not sweat the small shit and does not see a reason to deny me my way most of the time. You know, it is possible for all people to get what they want and also be a submissive, submissive does not equal martyr in my world. If I had a dom that wanted to decide if every little desire I had was up to their judgment as to whether I can or cannot have it, that isn't what I like. It is not my thing. I know others are into the entire micromanagement thing, it just isn't for me... I do like macro-level domination, and in my mind it is more submissive to say "you decide where we live" then "you decide what I wear to work today" We all have differing needs of submission and dominance in our relationships. I like a more laid back form of D/s. I certainly would not want someone who was looking for me to be TFTB all of the time. When I was raising my kid my sister was always telling he how he was "manipulating" me because he would only be "pretending" to be upset, tired, hurt, etc etc etc... In my reality he had feelings, those feelings mattered, it was my job to be responsive to his feelings as his mother. My son is one of the most respectful, kind, honest adults I know... Now, in my parenting style I was not looking for him to manipulate me... I just wanted to have an honest relationship with him without my distrusting his feelings, and to build his trust in me. Over the long haul this approach worked for me. If my dom was always looking for me to manipulate him I wouldn't trust him. It would erode the relationship in my eyes

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:42:20 PM)
quote: When I purchase a product that fails to perform in the manner I'd hoped who's fault is it? Do I balk about it being defective or recognize that I probably didn't choose the right model and I need something more suitable instead? The buck stops with the top. The idea that this person is creeping around like a cat burglar is mind boggling. If you drive the car off the lot without taking a test spin don't be surprised when things crop up that you never anticipated. Can you foreshadow it all? Never. But you can make sure that you know what's under the hood and that it suits YOUR purposes before you drive off. People are not products. It just isn't that easy and I'm surprised that someone as intelligent as yourself would try and simplify a relationship to that degree and then place it on a single person. The responsibility for any relationship sets squarely on the shoulders of the people involved..ALL of the people involved. Anyone who thinks or justifies differently is an idiot.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:47:59 PM)
quote: the sub is not always the victim of poor Domination, sometimes they are just wanting their own way and attempting to manipulate. to say that subs never ever, never, never do this is unrealistic - from my POV anyway, but maybe its just me. I simply don't consider short-term lapses in judgement or the occasional attempt to weight a decision by the authority-holder in the relationship in the direction preferred by the submissive party as "TFTB". Maybe it's because these little instances don't leave me feeling like I've "lost control" of the situation. I know that I'm the one who, in the end, makes the decision -- and if a bottom can convince me of a good reason to decide in hir favor, then it is -still- my decision, in the end. I'm a firm believer in self-governance, but, to me, self-governance includes just having the knowledge of when it's time to "let go of the bone", so to speak. When I say "enough", or "My decision is final.", I expect the conversation to end. It doesn't, always, and some folks are better than others about knowing when it's time to shut up. Only if the individual on the other side of the request keeps going through a second warning to cease, or uses manipulation or retaliation after the fact do I classify it as TFTB. Otherwise, it's still "simple negotiation" in my book. They want something a certain way, and I get to decide whether that way is the way it will happen or not. End of discussion. Calla

leadership527 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:48:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Anyone who thinks or justifies differently is an idiot. Sign me up then... but at least I'm a happy idiot and have been for 15 years.

lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:52:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania .Here is how it works in my reality.... cool. when someone posts a question different realities collude. my reality is very similar to youre reality and im not at all sure where martyrdom came in. youre reality, my reality isnt everyones reality - when someone asks a question we can offer our reality but also accept other realities. other realities exist. im actually a little surprised with the reluctance to accept that submissives are capable and do at times manipulate. the reaction that this is bad or wrong or in some way a non-reality fuddles me a bit. its part of human nature to squrim against a 'no' when the word 'yes' was what youre after. for a dominant to have the final say and yet never deny you what you want, ever is not something ive ever come across. yes theyve all had the final say and yes that was what i want but there were certainly times when i was denied what i wanted for reasons specific to them and because they had the final say i 'fell in'. all that im saying is that at the point of 'no' there are times when a submissive might TFTB. why is that such an impossible concept. im not saying you, specifically you juliaoceania would TFTB im saying someone else might. I want someone that has the final say. I also want someone that does not sweat the small shit and does not see a reason to deny me my way most of the time. You know, it is possible for all people to get what they want and also be a submissive, submissive does not equal martyr in my world. yes, thank you i did know that - im not in fact contributing to this thread from any personal angle or precept. im simply attempting to answer somebody elses question based on observation and some self examination. .

juliaoceania -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:53:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: When I purchase a product that fails to perform in the manner I'd hoped who's fault is it? Do I balk about it being defective or recognize that I probably didn't choose the right model and I need something more suitable instead? The buck stops with the top. The idea that this person is creeping around like a cat burglar is mind boggling. If you drive the car off the lot without taking a test spin don't be surprised when things crop up that you never anticipated. Can you foreshadow it all? Never. But you can make sure that you know what's under the hood and that it suits YOUR purposes before you drive off. People are not products. It just isn't that easy and I'm surprised that someone as intelligent as yourself would try and simplify a relationship to that degree and then place it on a single person. The responsibility for any relationship sets squarely on the shoulders of the people involved..ALL of the people involved. Anyone who thinks or justifies differently is an idiot. This is not an exact analogy, but I am going to draw on my parenthood to express why people who think differently than you are not "idiots"... A parent is vastly responsible for their children. If their children have needs they must be responded to, if they neglect their kids and they misbehave, they are responsible. If they allow misbehavior... again the parent's responsibility... Now kids have minds of their own and make mistakes,. but it is the parent that signed on to dealing with that... There are large differences between D/s and parenthood. Both consent, both can decide to stop the relationship at any time. BUT, a dominant is taking on responsibility for the submissive and the dynamic. If they aren't compatible then the dom should just acknowledge that and walk away instead of labeling the sub negatively...When I see a dominant that talks about TFTB I think of someone that does not want to have the responsibilities, or is looking for trouble.. just me

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:56:01 PM)
quote: I want someone that has the final say. I also want someone that does not sweat the small shit and does not see a reason to deny me my way most of the time. Just to point out something here julia.. I don't think you meant it this way but it brought up the thought If he's giving you your way most of the time when would it be his way(When he's deciding to do it?)? What happens if he says no when it's something you really think he should say yes on? If this were to happen on a regular basis then obviously the end result would be that because he doesn't see things the same, way you wouldn't be compatible right? This sounds like compatibility and would be in my mind except... if there was an attitude or self-centeredness about the person in getting what they wanted. I think the whole compatibility thing can be a disguise for really just trying to get your way. Who knows? You'd think the person doing it might but that doesn't mean they'd own up to it even if they were self-aware enough to see it..Most aren't I suspect.

leadership527 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:57:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I simply don't consider short-term lapses in judgement or the occasional need to attempt to weight a decision by the authority-holder in the relationship as "TFTB". Maybe it's because these little instances don't leave me feeling like I've "lost control" of the situation. I know that I'm the one who, in the end, makes the decision -- and if a bottom can convince me of a good reason to decide in hir favor, then it is -still- my decision, in the end. chuckles How astonishing, Dame Calla, that once again you and I see things so similarly. My dominance is not dependent on Carol... it is just how I view the world. Even in the worst case example, Carol yells, "Fuck you! I won't do it. Take this fucking collar and shove it up your ass!" and then flings her (rather heavy) collar at me.... even that would not have changed anything TO ME. I would still be entirely in control in my own head. It would be ME who was deciding what decisions I wanted to make in this new situation. I cannot be topped by Carol, I could only ever choose to bottom to her.

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:58:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Anyone who thinks or justifies differently is an idiot. Sign me up then... but at least I'm a happy idiot and have been for 15 years. Done. I'll send you the package in the mail. Please send me your CC info so we can close the deal.

porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 12:59:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania When I was raising my kid my sister was always telling he how he was "manipulating" me because he would only be "pretending" to be upset, tired, hurt, etc etc etc... In my reality he had feelings, those feelings mattered, it was my job to be responsive to his feelings as his mother. My son is one of the most respectful, kind, honest adults I know... Now, in my parenting style I was not looking for him to manipulate me... I just wanted to have an honest relationship with him without my distrusting his feelings, and to build his trust in me. Over the long haul this approach worked for me. Get out of my head. [:D] I just had the same discussion with someone regarding this subject and related it to parenting. I wouldn't dream of using the same label towards their behavior for the very reasons you stated. I value communication and don't want someone that's too afraid to say what they feel or think because it isn't "submissively inclined" or what have you. In my mind he's simply saying what I "want" to hear rather than telling the truth. I trust in my ability to deal with that without resorting to the TFTB spiel. It seems too guilt driven for my tastes. quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys People are not products. It just isn't that easy and I'm surprised that someone as intelligent as yourself would try and simplify a relationship to that degree and then place it on a single person. The responsibility for any relationship sets squarely on the shoulders of the people involved..ALL of the people involved. Anyone who thinks or justifies differently is an idiot. I did not suggest that people were products at all. I said I'm responsible for the situations I undertake and that includes the good, bad, and ugly. I am not absolving the submissive from their portion but indicating that when it's all said and done the buck stops with me. The premise behind most allegations of TFTB suggests intentional wrongdoing by the submissive with little if any accountability from the dominant. I merely dispelled that fallacy. ~porcelaine

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:02:11 PM)
quote: Now kids have minds of their own and make mistakes,. but it is the parent that signed on to dealing with that... I sign on for duty as well but I also know that the people that I want aren't children..aren't products and aren't anything other than functioning adults or I won't be with them. They are responsible for the things they do and I hold them accountable while being responsible for the things I'm suppose to..yet when it comes to relationship things.....Like behavior and so forth..We are both responsible.

juliaoceania -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:06:04 PM)
quote: m actually a little surprised with the reluctance to accept that submissives are capable and do at times manipulate. People manipulate... submissives do not corner the market on this. quote: m not in fact contributing to this thread from any personal angle or precept. im simply attempting to answer somebody elses question based on observation and some self examination. I think you took my martyr comment personal, it wasn't

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:07:26 PM)
quote: I did not suggest that people were products at all. I said I'm responsible for the situations I undertake and that includes the good, bad, and ugly. I am not absolving the submissive from their portion but indicating that when it's all said and done the buck stops with me. The premise behind most allegations of TFTB suggests intentional wrongdoing by the submissive with little if any accountability from the dominant. I merely dispelled that fallacy. That's exactly what it sounded like you were doing to me.

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