RE: Topping from the bottom ?

RE: Topping from the bottom ? (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:12:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: Now kids have minds of their own and make mistakes,. but it is the parent that signed on to dealing with that... I sign on for duty as well but I also know that the people that I want aren't children..aren't products and aren't anything other than functioning adults or I won't be with them. They are responsible for the things they do and I hold them accountable while being responsible for the things I'm suppose to..yet when it comes to relationship things.....Like behavior and so forth..We are both responsible. If you aren't getting the outcomes you desire, look in the mirror as to why this is so. If I don't like the way a dom is domming me, I can always say "fuck this I'm outta here". If I think someone is manipulative and dishonest then I am gone. This is not a D/s issue, why do subs get a special label to denote their manipulations? People can be assholes, act according to knowing this is true and try to find a nonasshole... pretty simple. With power comes responsibility. If someone is not willing to take that responsibility, that is fine by me, just don't attempt to exert power over me. If someone says to a sub "You must count on me for what you need and want" and then when they try to tell the dom what they need and they want and are informed that they are TFTB, then that sub is probably going to sooner or manipulate to get what they need... it is human nature... Or they will be like me and have the view that those who rule least rule best[;)]

lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:15:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW quote: the sub is not always the victim of poor Domination, sometimes they are just wanting their own way and attempting to manipulate. to say that subs never ever, never, never do this is unrealistic - from my POV anyway, but maybe its just me. I simply don't consider short-term lapses in judgement or the occasional attempt to weight a decision by the authority-holder in the relationship in the direction preferred by the submissive party as "TFTB". Maybe it's because these little instances don't leave me feeling like I've "lost control" of the situation. I know that I'm the one who, in the end, makes the decision -- and if a bottom can convince me of a good reason to decide in hir favor, then it is -still- my decision, in the end. I'm a firm believer in self-governance, but, to me, self-governance includes just having the knowledge of when it's time to "let go of the bone", so to speak. When I say "enough", or "My decision is final.", I expect the conversation to end. It doesn't, always, and some folks are better than others about knowing when it's time to shut up. Only if the individual on the other side of the request keeps going through a second warning to cease, or uses manipulation or retaliation after the fact do I classify it as TFTB. Otherwise, it's still "simple negotiation" in my book. They want something a certain way, and I get to decide whether that way is the way it will happen or not. End of discussion. Calla hi Calla, .... but is it about losing control every time. there have been times when ive wanted my own way and tried to get it - but never at any time did i feel that he was not in control of me or that i was actually bucking his control - i was however, for want of a better phrase TFTBing - i was attempting to overrule his decision. ok. example: id had a tough day, this particular Dom had had all day fannying around. i get home, tired and slip into a bath. he walks in and tells me to get out of the bath and iron his shirt (in my head i was thinking. youve had all day to iron youre shirt) so i stayed in the bath for a while longer and washed my hair. in my head i knew i was being disobedient and actually i felt rebellious. he never stopped being in control so far as he was concerned, it was my actions that were suspect and i was disciplined for them. if he had not disciplined me and id continued not to iron his shirt then it would have been a situation of him losing control and me getting the upper hand.

porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:20:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: I did not suggest that people were products at all. I said I'm responsible for the situations I undertake and that includes the good, bad, and ugly. I am not absolving the submissive from their portion but indicating that when it's all said and done the buck stops with me. The premise behind most allegations of TFTB suggests intentional wrongdoing by the submissive with little if any accountability from the dominant. I merely dispelled that fallacy. That's exactly what it sounded like you were doing to me. Nope. I'm a proponent for personal responsibility and accountability on both ends. But in the end I'm in charge. And I don't subscribe to TFTB as it's typically presented. ~porcelaine

leadership527 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:22:41 PM)
quote: lally said: im actually a little surprised with the reluctance to accept that submissives are capable and do at times manipulate. the reaction that this is bad or wrong or in some way a non-reality fuddles me a bit. its part of human nature to squrim against a 'no' when the word 'yes' was what youre after. for a dominant to have the final say and yet never deny you what you want, ever is not something ive ever come across. yes theyve all had the final say and yes that was what i want but there were certainly times when i was denied what i wanted for reasons specific to them and because they had the final say i 'fell in'. I don't know about anyone else lally, but you and I aren't disagreeing on this level. Of COURSE Carol dislikes some commands. When she does, she's pretty vocal about it at my urging. Sometimes she pushes back pretty hard. You and I both see that exactly the same. HOWEVER, I don't see any of this as TFTB or manipulation -- even though yes, sometimes she's not exactly forthright in her motives. I call it "communication" -- communication at the end of which a decision will be reached. It will be me who chooses when the end of the discussion is and it will be me who decides whether or not, based upon this additional data, I want to revisit my original command. For me, the reason why TFTB is impossible is simply that I would never relinquish those choices and Carol cannot make me do so.

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:23:37 PM)
quote: If you aren't getting the outcomes you desire, look in the mirror as to why this is so. If I don't like the way a dom is domming me, I can always say "fuck this I'm outta here". If I think someone is manipulative and dishonest then I am gone. This is not a D/s issue, why do subs get a special label to denote their manipulations? People can be assholes, act according to knowing this is true and try to find a nonasshole... pretty simple. With power comes responsibility. If someone is not willing to take that responsibility, that is fine by me, just don't attempt to exert power over me. If someone says to a sub "You must count on me for what you need and want" and then when they try to tell the dom what i need and want and are informed that they are TFTB, then that sub is probably going to sooner or manipulate to get what they need... it is human nature... Or they will be like me and have the view that those who rule least rule best This isn't about me so let's keep the projection for reflection to a minimum please. I'm not sure why subs get a special label for it..You'll have to ask the "Submissive Coalition for Equal Rights and Democracy". As for the rest I agree...We have different responsibilities but one that's the same is how we treat each other....TFTB does go on I'm sure...How much of it is actual TFTB and how much just looks like it and really is compatibility issues..I can't say. As for exerting power and the issues that come with that..I'm in! I have been for most of my life long before I could put a name to it. What I don't dig is dishonesty in any form..Whether it's manipulation or outright BS

porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:26:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 HOWEVER, I don't see any of this as TFTB or manipulation -- even though yes, sometimes she's not exactly forthright in her motives. I call it "communication" -- communication at the end of which a decision will be reached. It will be me who chooses when the end of the discussion is and it will be me who decides whether or not, based upon this additional data, I want to revisit my original command. For me, the reason why TFTB is impossible is simply that I would never relinquish those choices and Carol cannot make me do so. This. [;)] ~porcelaine

LaTigresse -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:28:15 PM)
Porcelaine is now writing many of my posts it seems. Which is good because she is usually far more articulate and always nicer than I am. [;)]

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:33:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Porcelaine is now writing many of my posts it seems. Which is good because she is usually far more articulate and always nicer than I am. [;)] Great posture you have.

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:35:16 PM)
Everyone I would suspect has been manipulated at least one time in their life.[;)] Even if the person decided to be..all be it unaware or not.

porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:41:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Porcelaine is now writing many of my posts it seems. Which is good because she is usually far more articulate and always nicer than I am. [;)] Thank you for the compliment. [:D] ~porcelaine

porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:45:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Everyone I would suspect has been manipulated at least one time in their life.[;)] Even if the person decided to be..all be it unaware or not. Yep. And some people point the finger when it happens. Others figure out how they contributed to the situation to prevent it from occurring again. Blame is always easier than finding a solution. ~porcelaine

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Everyone I would suspect has been manipulated at least one time in their life.[;)] Even if the person decided to be..all be it unaware or not. Yep. And some people point the finger when it happens. Others figure out how they contributed to the situation to prevent it from occurring again. Blame is always easier than finding a solution. ~porcelaine I "absolutely" agree except... You've never seen anyone do something bad because THEY chose to? Finding a solution and working out why something happen is the grownup thing to do but not doing them is even better..Crap does happen though and life isn't that neat.

leadership527 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:53:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine Yep. And some people point the finger when it happens. Others figure out how they contributed to the situation to prevent it from occurring again. Blame is always easier than finding a solution. I have a slightly different spin on this. So given a situation where I didn't get what I wanted from Carol I have two ways to interpret it... a) She manipulated me (bad girl) b) I screwed up (bad me) The problem for me is that I am incapable of thinking the (a) thought because it gives away my personal authority. Fingering HER for it is just not a way that I am capable of viewing the world. To me, that is part of what it means to say I am "naturally dominant". Option (b), while uncomfortable, is still a thought I can actually entertain so I go with that. In lally's bathtub scenario, I could easily look at how passive aggressive and disobedient lally was. But to me, the glaring failure was on the part of the dominant who failed to emphasize importance when the command was delivered, failed to track satisfactory results and provide timely feedback, and ultimately failed to get his way. Honestly, both viewpoints are simultaneously correct, but only one is possible for me. Were that whole story Carol and I, we would both be feeling very sheepish about it. Carol retains her sense of responsibility even as I acknowledge ALL responsibility. It's a hierarchical thing not a pie chart. edited to add: Sorry for using your story for illustration purposes lally. I'm not picking on you or your master. We all have our moments chuckles

Icarys -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 1:59:51 PM)
quote: The problem for me is that I am incapable of thinking the (a) thought because it gives away my personal authority. Fingering HER for it is just not a way that I am capable of viewing the world. To me, that is part of what it means to say I am "naturally dominant". Option (b), while uncomfortable, is still a thought I can actually entertain so I go with that. I think the real problem for you is that you believe that you are fully in control. The fact that Carol would attempt to be a bad girl in the first place means you aren't. In my mind whether or not the manipulation worked or not..It was still attempted. I look inward and outwardly..It's not a placing of blame but holding her accountable for her action in it. Which is where we sit down for a talk. Maybe a better term and more palatable phrase would be "attempted TFTB".[8\|] You guys debate till your blue..Food's on.

porcelaine -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 2:13:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys I "absolutely" agree except... You've never seen anyone do something bad because THEY chose to? Yes. But I don't want compliance. I want obedience and not because I said so but because he understands my way is preferred, better, what have you. quote: Finding a solution and working out why something happen is the grownup thing to do but not doing them is even better..Crap does happen though and life isn't that neat. I agree but perfection is an ideal not a reality. Mistakes will occur. When the behavior falls outside of what's expected I must determine why his desire was more important than adhering to the directive/standard. The answer isn't always clear cut and it may require reorientation or articulation of my expectations. Chalking it up to TFTB fails to address the root and allow for the impression that I want. Obedience is a choice and I want him to understand that he's following my instructions because it is what we both want, even when other options present themselves that may be more appealing to him. As such, my way is the only way when it's all said and done. [;)] ~porcelaine

leadership527 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 2:20:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys I think the real problem for you is that you believe that you are fully in control. The fact that Carol would attempt to be a bad girl in the first place means you aren't. No, the fact that she would SUCCEED at doing so means I'm not laughs. So yeah, when you said later "attempted TFTB" I could certainly recognize that sort of behavior in her. But because it presents no challenge to me I don't really label it that way. It's just "communication". quote: I look inward and outwardly..It's not a placing of blame but holding her accountable for her action in it. Which is where we sit down for a talk. nods Honestly, as would Carol and I... although between us that would all be automatic. I'm sure we'd both go seek each other out somewhat sheepishly and make some apologies and discuss how it went. As I noted above, neither Carol nor myself would be very pleased with our own behavior in that sort of scenario. I suppose if I had a dynamic where no feedback was allowed and I expected instant obedience to every utterance that came from my lips then it'd be different. But then again, so would Carol's behavior. In that [theoretical] relationship, she would know that when I said anything her choices were instant-obedience or turning in the collar. She'd act accordingly. But for Carol and I, I very much like to get reactions to my commands and I'm fine with those reactions sometimes moderating my initial commands. If I want instant and unconditional obedience, I start out with "Listen and obey me mine....." So there may be a style thing going on in all this too. It could simply be that my particular style happens to preclude this particular scenario.

lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 2:21:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: lally said: im actually a little surprised with the reluctance to accept that submissives are capable and do at times manipulate. the reaction that this is bad or wrong or in some way a non-reality fuddles me a bit. its part of human nature to squrim against a 'no' when the word 'yes' was what youre after. for a dominant to have the final say and yet never deny you what you want, ever is not something ive ever come across. yes theyve all had the final say and yes that was what i want but there were certainly times when i was denied what i wanted for reasons specific to them and because they had the final say i 'fell in'. I don't know about anyone else lally, but you and I aren't disagreeing on this level. Of COURSE Carol dislikes some commands. When she does, she's pretty vocal about it at my urging. Sometimes she pushes back pretty hard. You and I both see that exactly the same. HOWEVER, I don't see any of this as TFTB or manipulation -- even though yes, sometimes she's not exactly forthright in her motives. I call it "communication" -- communication at the end of which a decision will be reached. It will be me who chooses when the end of the discussion is and it will be me who decides whether or not, based upon this additional data, I want to revisit my original command. For me, the reason why TFTB is impossible is simply that I would never relinquish those choices and Carol cannot make me do so. ive never been accused of TFTB, but i have been a brat, i have been wilful i have been disobedient and i have thrown all my toys out of the pram and had a major strop. none of that i would consider communication. [:D] i do think im a reasonably intelligent, emotionally together person - but i have had my moments in the past as ive tried to fnd my way to where i am now, happy and settled with someone who wants what i want i want what He wants. its taken me a time to get here and though ive never been accused of TFTB, im damn sure i have TFTB'd plenty of times. i dont think of it as a negative thing at all. its just another label that generically encompasses a patterna of behaviour. the fact that some Dominants use it as a derrogative isnt the fault of the term and the fact that some people have been accused of it in the derrogative isnt the fault of the term, the phrase exists and someone asked what it meant. denying its existance by saying 'it would never happen in my relationship' isnt really allowing for the fact that it does exist in some relationships or some early stage relationships when the power exchange might be more of a power struggle. to suggest that such struggles dont occur and wrongly bias it against Dominants in suggesting that they are failing in their duties when they are trying to bring a sub to heel who has issues with trust (perhaps) or handing over control (possibly) to level the blame entirely on the dominant and say that he is a failure at bringing an otherwise promising sub to heel over some matter or another is negating the process of working with a sub who might be really wanting to get it right but keeps getting bits wrong. but im not talking about the people who use TFTB as a derrogative term. its a term, thats it. like massochism has many shades and sadism has many shades and none of them can be neatly boxed away, so is TFTB. it shouldnt be used as a derrogative and arguably it shouldnt be used at all. but it is and its brought about a really interesting discussion. i realise that the OP asked this question in such a way as to invite an overall concensus that it is a negative term. but in asking the question the OP also invited us to explain what it meant.

lally2 -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 2:33:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 .In lally's bathtub scenario, I could easily look at how passive aggressive and disobedient lally was. But to me, the glaring failure was on the part of the dominant who failed to emphasize importance when the command was delivered, failed to track satisfactory results and provide timely feedback, and ultimately failed to get his way. .edited to add: Sorry for using your story for illustration purposes lally. I'm not picking on you or your master. We all have our moments chuckles no probs, was a relationship or two past anyway, bathwater down the plug - so to speak [:D] the Dom in question had in fact a reasonable right to assume i would self govern myself out of the bath. and i didnt resent the discipline afterwards. i knew id earned it. i think this is where culpability gets a bit skewed here. I was culpable. I take full responsibility for what happened. it was MY choice to piss about and he did get his way, i ironed his stupid shirt but with a sore arse.. lol

LaTigresse -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 2:36:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Porcelaine is now writing many of my posts it seems. Which is good because she is usually far more articulate and always nicer than I am. [;)] Great posture you have. Thank you.........I have been working on it. Don't wanna end up with that nasty, old lady, hump.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Topping from the bottom ? (8/6/2010 2:48:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 but im not talking about the people who use TFTB as a derrogative term. its a term, thats it. like massochism has many shades and sadism has many shades and none of them can be neatly boxed away, so is TFTB. it shouldnt be used as a derrogative and arguably it shouldnt be used at all. but it is and its brought about a really interesting discussion. Unfortunately, it's never used as a positive term. Has anyone around here ever said "my sub really tops from the bottom well - it's so great" or "I'm trying to get better at topping from the bottom - any advice?"? It's a negative term because no matter how you define it, most of the people you speak to on the subject are going to see it as negative. I would never agree to saying I've "topped from the bottom" because I find it silly and offensive. I don't top. Everything I do in the context of a D/s situation, no matter what it is, I do as a sub or bottom. Therefore every single action I take in that dynamic - up to and including the wildest behavior you can imagine - does not change my status. I'm still the submissive in the room. I may be the submissive who is about to get the spanking of my life, but the dynamic still stands until someone changes or ends it. And like I pointed out a bit earlier, it seems like most people try to use "topping from the bottom" in non-dynamic situations, to imply that a sub isn't submissive enough in all ways. That makes it very hard to take it seriously as a term, and the amount I do take it seriously, I find it pretty negative.

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