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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 7:02:27 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Don't wish Cancer on anyone but if there ever was a poster child of karma being a bitch he is it. How a prick like that was ever allowed to be an American I will never know.


I didn't know we had a character test for citizenship outside of criminal offenses. Is there a prick/nonprick check box on the naturalization application? Like we don't have native born pricks in this country.

I posted the video because I think it is a gutsy interview. If the man were cowardly he could have simply crawled away to die. But no, he has the balls to stand and confront and defend his position at his lowest point while there are as he says online groups praying for his death to be painful. Shows me a lot of admirable character.

I wonder how many here have actually watched the video. I found it difficult to view without projecting myself into his situation.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
[SNIP]

I wonder what exactly Dylan Thomas meant by "...words had forked no lightning.."

Prick or no, you can't say that Christopher was afraid to wrestle with lightning.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 7:15:51 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: taleon

Well, regardless what you think of Hitchens' points of view, he speaks eloquently, is not afraid to take an unpopular stance and will defend it rigorously. To put it mildly, he is not known for backing down just to please a powerful opponent, his publisher, his audience or his interviewer. If he is convinced he has a valid point, he'll confront them. To a certain degree, I find that admirable.

So, I wouldn't mind at all if I share a country with him. And without him, public debate surely would be a bit less lively, I think.


Yeah, we all know how important speaking eloquently and defending unpopular stances is... it does not matter what sort of nasty obnoxious thing you stand for, as long as you are wordy when you do so

You know what, there have been a lot of compelling speakers through history that advocated for the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, in fact it is usually the eloquent speakers that convince people to follow them no matter what sort of fucked up madness they advocate... like attacking a country that was never a threat to us. Hitchens was wrong about that one, and he never backed down no matter how apparent it became he was wrong about that. Now, to you, the fact he was articulate and wordy may make up for being a hate mongering war mongering fucktard, but it doesn't make up for it in my book. Thousands of my people have died for the type of bigotry he has espoused, and many more thousands of women and children have lost their lives...





< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/9/2010 7:16:26 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 7:55:50 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I wonder how many Iraqi children died as a result of our unnecessary invasion...


This kind of sentiment just blows my mind. By far, I was not a supporter of the invasion of Iraq, but Saddam's legacy was one of brutality, mass murder, targeted assassinations, systematic rape, torture you name it, the piece of shit did it.

I would hazard a guess that more iraqi children would have grown up to either die, be maimed, or tortured than did because of this invasion.

But you go ahead and feel righteous because he was a secular ruler. 


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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 7:56:06 AM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Don't wish Cancer on anyone but if there ever was a poster child of karma being a bitch he is it. How a prick like that was ever allowed to be an American I will never know.


I didn't know we had a character test for citizenship outside of criminal offenses. Is there a prick/nonprick check box on the naturalization application? Like we don't have native born pricks in this country.

I posted the video because I think it is a gutsy interview. If the man were cowardly he could have simply crawled away to die. But no, he has the balls to stand and confront and defend his position at his lowest point while there are as he says online groups praying for his death to be painful. Shows me a lot of admirable character.

I wonder how many here have actually watched the video. I found it difficult to view without projecting myself into his situation.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
[SNIP]

I wonder what exactly Dylan Thomas meant by "...words had forked no lightning.."

Prick or no, you can't say that Christopher was afraid to wrestle with lightning.
[/quote

There isn't any. But if I am deciding between chris hitchens and an illegal immigrant that is going to come here and add something to my country. Give me the illegal any day.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 8:10:40 AM   
vincentML


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quote:


There isn't any. But if I am deciding between chris hitchens and an illegal immigrant that is going to come here and add something to my country. Give me the illegal any day.


Easy to say in hindsight.

My purpose in starting this thread was to explore the disconnect between his current situation and his atheism, and how others are responding to it. But perhaps I was hoping for too much.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 8:20:56 AM   
DomYngBlk


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Status: offline 		Vincent, you'd have to agree he is more than just a bit of an asshole.............I am not willing to place him on a pedestal when he is simply facing something that many faceless people deal with daily. Not sure your point.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 8:28:02 AM   
taleon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Yeah, we all know how important speaking eloquently and defending unpopular stances is... it does not matter what sort of nasty obnoxious thing you stand for, as long as you are wordy when you do so

Obviously, there is a line to how "nasty" one can get. But, before that line is crossed, I feel that having people around who will go against the mainstream are necessary to keep society evolving. Of course, to be of any help, they need to be able to carry a point which makes one stop and think. The "eloquent" part comes to play, right there.

quote:

You know what, there have been a lot of compelling speakers through history that advocated for the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, in fact it is usually the eloquent speakers that convince people to follow them no matter what sort of fucked up madness they advocate... like attacking a country that was never a threat to us.

Yes, I do know that. Two points here:

- As to being a war monger: nothing I've read to heard from him suggests to me that he is, a priori, in favor of war. If I remember correctly, he campaigned against the first Gulf War. What's more, Hitchens didn't advocate the wholesale slaughter of innocent people. In fact, his point is that to save lives, Saddam had to go. He seems to think that invading Iraq will ultimately result in a lesser loss of life, rather than to let Saddam sit there. I don't think he uses that as an excuse to drag a country into war, I think he actually believes that. In his mind, he opts for the lesser of two evils.

- Hitchens lives in a country which supports freedom of speech. Which means that he can advocate any military action he deems necessary, as long as he stays within the boundaries of the law. You simply can't wish people to shut up, because they you find them "war mongering". The best course of action, to me, would be to debate against their arguments. Get more people on your side of the fence.

quote:

Hitchens was wrong about that one, and he never backed down no matter how apparent it became he was wrong about that. Now, to you, the fact he was articulate and wordy may make up for being a hate mongering war mongering fucktard, but it doesn't make up for it in my book.

Wait, where and when did he incite hate? As far as I've heard him talk, he attacks religions, he attacks policies, he attacks governments, he attacks certain individuals (Kissinger, for example), and he will gladly and colourfully point out that other people are wrong, but I've never seen him trying to incite hate against any of his opponents or a group of people. Quite the opposite, he ferociously defends the right of his rivals to speak up. I think I've heard him quote Voltaire on this issue: "I may not defend what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it".

Ok, sorry for the tangent. And back on topic: to me, what makes up for him is that he can argue his position. Although he did not convince you, I usually had to pause and think things through, if he argued against my own point of view. Again, I find that valuable.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 11:33:27 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Vincent, you'd have to agree he is more than just a bit of an asshole.............I am not willing to place him on a pedestal when he is simply facing something that many faceless people deal with daily. Not sure your point.


He is not a faceless person, DYB. He represents a philosophical point of view which is anathema to the majority. He is now in a position in which many would see him recant for their own self-satisfying Schadenfreude. He does not. Nor does he slip away into privacy which he could have easily done. So, yes, gutsy imo and not easy to mourn the loss of life with his children/family.

It is beside the point if you think him a prick or an asshole and beside the point that you level those labels with no stated justification.

The point is the man remains true to his own philosophy in his darkest moment. The other point is there are people who have set up websites to pray publically that he suffer a painful death because of the unpopular ideas he advanced. I find the first admirable and the latter obscene. To pray for a painful death for another? What does that tell you about those Believers? To me they are the real pricks and assholes here.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/9/2010 11:46:24 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The point is the man remains true to his own philosophy in his darkest moment. The other point is there are people who ...pray... that he suffer a painful death because of the unpopular ideas he advanced.

You are letting your affinity for Hitchens' philosophy carry you beyond the point of making sense. The above could have been said about Hitler, too.

Omitting the phrase about websites of course

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/9/2010 11:47:52 AM >

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/11/2010 6:16:11 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
see we agree...now read it again slowly

My bad, I missed your post later on where you fixed your wording so it made sense. I'm glad you did because there was a real issue with that first attempt.


< Message edited by GotSteel -- 8/11/2010 6:19:21 PM >

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/12/2010 6:38:41 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The point is the man remains true to his own philosophy in his darkest moment. The other point is there are people who ...pray... that he suffer a painful death because of the unpopular ideas he advanced.

You are letting your affinity for Hitchens' philosophy carry you beyond the point of making sense. The above could have been said about Hitler, too.

Omitting the phrase about websites of course

K.


Ah well, Kirata, it only seems like I am carried beyond the point of making sense if someone were so shallow as to draw a moral equivalency between a man who defended his ideas with vigorous writing, speech, and debate and a man who advanced his ideas with invading armies and death camps. But if that is the type of reasoned debate you wish to cling to, well be my guest.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 6:35:44 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah well, Kirata, it only seems like I am carried beyond the point of making sense if someone were so shallow as to draw a moral equivalency between a man who defended his ideas with vigorous writing, speech, and debate and a man who advanced his ideas with invading armies and death camps. But if that is the type of reasoned debate you wish to cling to, well be my guest.

Shallow and incapable of reason, eh? Nice. My point stands, of course. You praised Hitchens for qualities that are not in and of themselves anything admirable. For example, you are 'remaining true to your philosophy' here in your response to me.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/13/2010 7:07:04 AM >

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 8:13:03 AM   
taleon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
You praised Hitchens for qualities that are not in and of themselves anything admirable.

Do you think courage is an admirable quality? I think, many would find that it is. But, one could also say that Hitler had the "courage" to invade much of Europe (mind you, I'm not saying that was a good thing! Merely that it was a gutsy thing to do). Does that mean we can't think of courage as an admirable quality?

< Message edited by taleon -- 8/13/2010 8:20:00 AM >

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 8:56:23 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taleon

Do you think courage is an admirable quality? I think, many would find that it is. But, one could also say that Hitler had the "courage" to invade much of Europe (mind you, I'm not saying that was a good thing! Merely that it was a gutsy thing to do). Does that mean we can't think of courage as an admirable quality?


He praised Hitchens for remaining true to his philosophy. But "his philosophy" in this context is his philosophy too. He does not praise people for 'remaining true to their philosophy' when he doesn't agree with it. He insults them, as you saw.

He does, however, have the "courage" to persist in this tactic, if you think that is an admirable quality.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/13/2010 9:03:46 AM >

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 9:10:02 AM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		It is one thing to have courage of your convictions. Having convictions worth that courage is the key.


Also, while he is terminal, he is not on his death bed yet.

Anything can happen and many things happen only in the minds of men.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 9:20:04 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah well, Kirata, it only seems like I am carried beyond the point of making sense if someone were so shallow as to draw a moral equivalency between a man who defended his ideas with vigorous writing, speech, and debate and a man who advanced his ideas with invading armies and death camps. But if that is the type of reasoned debate you wish to cling to, well be my guest.

Shallow and incapable of reason, eh? Nice. My point stands, of course. You praised Hitchens for qualities that are not in and of themselves anything admirable. For example, you are 'remaining true to your philosophy' here in your response to me.

K.


You are quite mistaken. My remaining true to my own philosophy in the face of your criticism is not particularly brave. Here we are two strangers exchanging points anonymously on a fetish board, after all. Your opposition is taken quite lightly (as you take mine of course) so I demonstrate nothing admirable in responding to you. For you to seek an anology in my response to you is bollocks, since Hitchens stands (or sits with drink in hand) and remains true to his course quite publicly in the face of a multitude of critics. Again, a sorry ass attempt to draw an equivalency by you.

I repeat there is no moral equivalence between Hitchens, who pursued his philosophy by writing, lecture, and debate, and Hitler, who turned his philosophy into action with an invading army and death camps.

Additionally, I propose it was much easier for Hitler to be brave when he had support from his armed forces and most of the German speaking population (until the war turned badly at least) Taleon says Hitler had courage that might be admirable and that is true as long as he was Der Fuhrer. But what did he do when the end was near? Did he give a televised interview to Anderson Cooper (or Walter Cronkite). I believe not. Instead of coming out in the open to face his critics while death was imminent, as Hitchens has, Hitler burrowed deeper into his underground bunker and committed suicide, ending like a trapped rat in his hole. Hardly to be admired, eh?

So, not only is there no moral equivalence between the two there is no actionable equivalence between them.

Playing the Hitler card has become so commonplace of late. Quite boring and not very creative. I am surprised to see it come from you.

ETA: "incapable of reason" is your phrase. I never accused you of that.


< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/13/2010 9:23:09 AM >

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 9:25:52 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You are quite mistaken. My remaining true to my own philosophy in the face of your criticism is not particularly brave.

I never said there was anything brave about it, so I'll take that as a clue that I can stop reading right there.

You have a nice day

K.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 9:57:04 AM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Vincent, you'd have to agree he is more than just a bit of an asshole.............I am not willing to place him on a pedestal when he is simply facing something that many faceless people deal with daily. Not sure your point.


He is not a faceless person, DYB. He represents a philosophical point of view which is anathema to the majority. He is now in a position in which many would see him recant for their own self-satisfying Schadenfreude. He does not. Nor does he slip away into privacy which he could have easily done. So, yes, gutsy imo and not easy to mourn the loss of life with his children/family.

It is beside the point if you think him a prick or an asshole and beside the point that you level those labels with no stated justification.

The point is the man remains true to his own philosophy in his darkest moment. The other point is there are people who have set up websites to pray publically that he suffer a painful death because of the unpopular ideas he advanced. I find the first admirable and the latter obscene. To pray for a painful death for another? What does that tell you about those Believers? To me they are the real pricks and assholes here.


Like plenty of "reporters" of his generation he took great delight in taking huge dumps on the heads of many people without doing the proper checking of sources or information. He shamelessly went after the limelight for himself no matter who he ran over or what stance he shifted on. In other words, I think he is a miserable human being.

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 10:19:11 AM   
taleon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
He does, however, have the "courage" to persist in this tactic, if you think that is an admirable quality.

What I think of that is a bit irrelevant given that I was interested in the more general question (which is incidentally entirely off-topic) your post provoked me to think about. Can a character trait be admirable, just on itself?

For example, can we take any seemingly positive trait, find a person with some ill repute who exhibited that trait in getting around to whatever it was that brought him or her that bad reputation, to put a smear on that trait? And if we can do that, does that imply there are no such things as admirable traits? Is what earns our admiration limited to deeds and convictions, but not traits?

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RE: Christopher Hitchens Dying of Cancer - 8/13/2010 10:28:25 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taleon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
You praised Hitchens for qualities that are not in and of themselves anything admirable.

Do you think courage is an admirable quality? I think, many would find that it is. But, one could also say that Hitler had the "courage" to invade much of Europe (mind you, I'm not saying that was a good thing! Merely that it was a gutsy thing to do). Does that mean we can't think of courage as an admirable quality?


People face cancer with courage every day, being an atheist does not make you more courageous, if that is what you are trying to get at. It is kind of like facing giving birth, once you are several months pregnant, you really have no choice but to give birth to it. There is no turning back. I mean, it does not take "courage" to have a child.... I kinda see death the same way, none of us are getting out alive... we have no choice about it, and if we did we would probably opt out.

Personally, I gave up an emotional attachment to what happens to me after death a long time ago. I don't know what is going to happen to me, and I accept that. I don't need to know. He has the certainty in his own mind that when he dies he becomes worm food, so some certainty might be better than none at the end of the day. But the fact of the matter for me is that I don't get comfort from "beliefs" about what happens to us after we die, because when I had them I was always questioning them in my heart, so that was not all that comforting to me

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/13/2010 10:29:23 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to taleon)
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