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RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 9:03:22 AM

CometSiph

Posts: 4
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline

n one forum, i was somewhat enlightened. i read all submissives outnumber Dominants regardless the gender, so i guess, there are also more female submissives than Dominants, just more submissives than Dominants period. that gave me relief, not to be singled out.
now for the flaming, does seem the bad rap thing i have to deal with, to not react in a negative way to negativity. so i have to just say, if one flames me, it is on them not me, i have put on my asbestos suit
not allow myself to get flamed out of the lifestyle like i did over 10 years ago. wish i could get rid of the italics, copied and repasted the spelling.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 141

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 9:07:15 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I do not know why you are afraid of being flamed....

I would say that females seeking any sort of alternative sexuality on sites like these are outnumbered by men...But I do not have the official numbers to prove it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CometSiph)

Post #: 142

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 9:20:56 AM

CometSiph

Posts: 4
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline

it does take courage to put oneself on the line. i am overcoming that fear of being flamed, i guess getting pissed because of getting flamed is another form of fear. so the asbestos suit, reflects me my attempt to be more thick thinned about it. i cannot truly be in the lifestyle if i let fear rule me the fear of flaming... so if someone wants to flame me, flame on. what else can i say or do, again it is on them, not me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 143

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 3:40:34 PM

DADDYSbabygirl40

Posts: 11
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline

Labels were very powerful for me in the very beginning because I was still trying to figure out what best fit myself. I was truly focused on **what** label did I fall under and I felt others might see something in myself that I have yet seen. Plus, when one does not have any real self-esteem it is very easy to buy in to what others **think** or say. Now my thoughts about labels is just that, they are only labels. They are very black or white, while life is in the gray area. When I tell someone that I have a Daddy and I'm a babygirl.... people often **think** they know the dynamics of Our relationship. I have found that most of their notions has Nothing to do with how Our relationship unfolds.
I think it comes down to this for me, what other people think of me... is none of my business. Also people only have the power to hurt me through their words if I give them the power to do so......
Be Well

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 144

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 4:37:28 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Labels were very powerful for me in the very beginning because I was still trying to figure out what best fit myself.

Which was why I started this thread... I know who I am, and a label does not really encompass it, but not everyone here is that rooted in their identity *yet*

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DADDYSbabygirl40)

Post #: 145

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 9:26:48 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Which was why I started this thread... I know who I am, and a label does not really encompass it, but not everyone here is that rooted in their identity *yet*

Well I am totally late to the party here, but wow. What an interesting discussion, and I am curious at what's behind some of the vehement disagreements.

Here's my scoop. At this point in my life, I consider myself a pretty self aware, emotionally healthy, strong and smart human being. But the truth is, I didn't embark on really starting my life and getting to know myself until about 5 years ago, and really only came to a lot of self A-ha moments in the last couple of years. Prior to that, I was insecure, ridiculously sensitive and dramatic, and prone to want to fit in to be accepted. I was a bully's dream, because all he had to do was tell me I wasn't "XYZ" enough, and you can bet I'd try to fit into that XYZ mold.

And this, I think, is what you are getting at in this thread.

Oh sure, people can (and did) say I deserved all the pain I ended up going through because I was stupid going into it. So OK, say that. Feel better?

In retrospect, I put myself in some pretty horrendous situations, all in the name of "being pleasing", of "now I'm a slave", of "now I'm submissive enough." Did I learn from it? Absolutely. Do I wish I had loved myself enough to not put myself through that? Absolutely. But the truth is, I didn't. I didn't think I deserved more than what I was getting. And all I really wanted was to be found desirable enough to be wanted by somebody. Cue the violins here.

I fell into the trap of emotional blackmail. I'm not really a slave if I don't do X. I'm just faking people out if I behave a certain way. I lost site of trying to know myself and be myself and instead, tried to fit a label.

Today I live in a different reality. Today I know who I am and I love who I am, and I don't give a shit what label someone wants to put on me for whatever their reason might be - I'm just me.

But for those who are not yet self aware and who are still figuring themselves out, their minds are more easily influenced. You are right, Julia - you start applying a negative label on a genre of people and then tell two friends and they tell two friends and in time, the possibility of universal thinking applies. CNN talks about "right wing radicals" and Fox News talks about "bleeding heart liberals" and those labels take off. Terms like "bible thumper" begin to apply to anyone with Christian beliefs, and it becomes acceptable, and then even the coolest folks who just happen to have this religious belief are lumped into a derogatively thought of group and treated as such. And so it goes.

Since I'm rambling up a storm here, I'll keep going, and say it baffles me to see people criticized as SAM and brat and any other such term, for simply being themselves, when the only "crime" they've committed is not fitting into someone's preferences - someone who is clearly incompatible with them to begin with. I recently had a discussion with someone whose slavery I can not relate to at all, and who could easily be labeled "not really a slave" or a "brat" or whatever else. But her master has complete control and authority over her, and loves her combative nature (it amuses him), and doesn't want her to change who she is for him. The more we talked the more I could understand how their dynamic worked and how perfect it was for both of them. So who the hell am I to say anything at all critical about what works so well for them? What's it to me? What's it to anyone who wants to look across a room (or a discussion forum) and point to someone else to tell them they "should" be something they're actually not? And why so passionately?

I know for myself, when I am troubled or angered or defensive about what someone else says or does, it's typically because it's hitting on something in me I haven't explored yet, and don't like. So when I see a person become rudely critical of another person who has no affect on his/her life, I wonder what's being triggered that he/she is becoming so critical.

I don't know, life is too short. I'd rather see people support each other than tear each other down. And I really believe the reason people tear others down is because of a weakness within that they are not yet able to face.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 146

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 10:11:27 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Thanks for your response NuevaVida... you hit on a lot of what motivated the thread... in a much more eloquent way than I communicated it...

I made no secret I started seeing someone new recently. I was very taken with him. He is a doctor, and ivy league educated, and I was pretty wowed by him. So we talked for a couple of months, and we discussed the parameters of a relationship. Here is the thing, he was on page 10 of my submission when I was on page 5. He started demanding things from me I was as yet unable to provide emotionally... he was moving too fast. So he pulls out the "you aren't being very submissive" BS and when that failed to get the desired response he calls me and rages at me over the phone... a few years ago that might have worked for me, being more of a novice than I am today. It did not work, I do not want to be around someone who screams at me for the crime of expressing how I feel. This happened after I started this thread...

So the key for me is simply this, if it feels wrong, it mostly likely is. There are worse things than being "unsubly", like being with someone who screams at me over the phone before a relationship even had the chance to blossom. I would be regretful over it, but I just don't care because I want to have FUN and be with someone COMPATIBLE with me...

So for those newbies reading this, just be happy, and if whatever you are doing isn't making you happy that is a huge red flag.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 147

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 10:34:48 PM

Twoshoes

Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline

Abit irrelevant to bdsm: "Labels can dehumanize others by associating them with 'things' in our mind for which we have no empathy (like buckets)."

Abit relevant to this thread: "Labels can disqualify others by associating them with other "things" we don't like."

For example, someone is reading a profile and sees: "I'm not one of those sicko daddy doms." Then they now know to associate any daddy doms with the word sicko. Or "I'm not a confused switch." then they associate anyone calling themselves a "switch" with someone who doesn't know what they want.
That is where the labels can hurt you on this site... in others' profiles. Especially when newbies (kind of like me) are trying to figure out stuff.

This thread has helped me if nothing else, because I look at bdsm every other year of my life and find some way to disqualify myself thoroughly. (Don't like leather; Don't like needles; Am not a "natural leader of men"; Don't want a 'slave'; Want someone with opinions; etc). Then I just assume I'm a control-loving bastard of some sort meant to be having rough/demeaning sex and make women beg, etc.

Then I realized that not only are there different dynamics, but there ARE women who will be amused by my creativity/chaoticness while others would deeply care about structure (which I do have, but find not very entertaining).

And most recently, I've been wondering if I'm a bottom-y switch (altough i've never tried this), because while I don't have a submissive personality, it doesn't sound half-bad to give control to someone so they can sub-space me into compliance and experience the sadism of someone else. And no, not for the sensations, but for the loss of control. Ofcourse, what I can pull off dom-wise is alot more than a simple top.

However, I'm not calling myself a Dominant, cause at most I'd have only experience as a "bedroom dominant" and I DO know this will cause a negative response. I don't mind however, since I'd be the first person to tell you that I really don't want to be responsible for much of someone else's life (common sense). So I won't label myself at all.

O, and I guess this means I'm not exactly a 'wanker' (but close).

Anyway, why do my CMails always mess up my apostrophes? (julia i just sent you one and I cannot fix the apostrophes)

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 8/17/2010 10:43:19 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 148

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/17/2010 10:42:30 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I would say you are far from being a "wanker", but if you prefer that label I will gladly respect it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 149

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 7:03:30 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

Julia: I have heard the "You aren't being very submissive" BS before, too, and in earlier days, I fell for it. In retrospect, I see it as a phrase someone uses when they are stuck. In other words, I don't know how to inspire your submission, so I'm going to make you feel badly for NOT submitting. Bleh.

I can only say had I known myself then the way I know myself now, things would have been a lot different for me. But because of the path I took, I'm sure as hell not going to look at someone who is where I used to be, and say "Oh well, you should know better, too bad for you, you SAM."

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and wish I had that same wisdom a few years ago: "There are worse things than being "unsubly", like being with someone who screams at me over the phone before a relationship even had the chance to blossom."

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 150

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 7:30:26 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
"you aren't being very submissive"

You know the thing that always baffles me when I hear this is that, at least in theory, this guy was supposed to be in charge, at least in his own head. So how'd you get the rap for this. Couldn't have have formed his thought in the form of, "Oh man, I'm not very dominant since I can't seem to dominate Julia"? How come nobody ever says that?

OK, yeah, that's a bit sarcastic for how I normally post. But still, it is in fact the question I have.

Oh, and I'm agreeing with you, Julia, on twoshoes... about opposite from wanker in my book... but if that label rocks his world for some reason *shrugs*.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 151

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 9:29:51 AM

DADDYSbabygirl40

Posts: 11
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline

I guess I would also like to share that "What other people think of me is none of my bussiness", Except for the person I am submissing to. I too have been told that if I was "truly" submissive I would do A,B,andC. Now in this context, I was very hurt by this and tried very hard to make His wants my own. This only ended up hurting me as well as our relationship...and I end up leaving.
sidney

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 152

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 10:29:39 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

I can only say had I known myself then the way I know myself now, things would have been a lot different for me. But because of the path I took, I'm sure as hell not going to look at someone who is where I used to be, and say "Oh well, you should know better, too bad for you, you SAM."

I do not know how many men have emailed me that I was labeling myself wrong, more than one because I do not list my kinks on my profile

Life, it is a journey of SELF discovery.... emphasis on the word self

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 153

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 10:32:24 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

You know the thing that always baffles me when I hear this is that, at least in theory, this guy was supposed to be in charge, at least in his own head. So how'd you get the rap for this. Couldn't have have formed his thought in the form of, "Oh man, I'm not very dominant since I can't seem to dominate Julia"? How come nobody ever says that?

I think there is a lot of merit to this line of thinking, and you know what, it says a lot about how I was introduced to all of this that it did not occur to me to look at it that way. I don't think most dominants I have ever spoken with would encourage that line of thought, although my last dom was adamant he was supposed to inspire submission and not demand it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 154

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 10:33:51 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DADDYSbabygirl40

I guess I would also like to share that "What other people think of me is none of my bussiness", Except for the person I am submissing to. I too have been told that if I was "truly" submissive I would do A,B,andC. Now in this context, I was very hurt by this and tried very hard to make His wants my own. This only ended up hurting me as well as our relationship...and I end up leaving.
sidney

I think that happens a lot when people aspire to a label instead of a healthy relationship... something I have unwittingly done myself in the past, even though I wasn't doing it consciously

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DADDYSbabygirl40)

Post #: 155

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 7:55:55 PM

Twoshoes

Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline

Thanks, julia & Jeff. Also, thx to Jujubee & NuevaVida for the stories I could relate to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I think that happens a lot when people aspire to a label instead of a healthy relationship...

Another good point.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 156

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 8:12:25 PM

CometSiph

Posts: 4
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline

some fetishes are labelled as "male fetishes", hinting that the majority of females don't like it? or is it a guilt trip manipulation? aren't fetishes just that; fetishes? why should a fetish be condemned and stated that only males want it? like a perfect example, a Mistress in a chatroom said facesitting/smother is a male fantasy... wonder why, could it be that she don't like to facesit, and does a blanket statement?

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 157

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/18/2010 9:07:15 PM

Twoshoes

Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline

Well I think of this way:
Would I want to wash a woman's hair? Not at all.
Would I wash my girlfriend's hair if I knew she'd enjoy it and I was in a state of bliss with her at the time, yes.

Stuff like that brings satisfaction only by knowing you're making the other person happy, not directly.

Does that answer your question?

They are 'male' fetishes, because they only please you directly, and her only indirectly (by knowing the reaction she is causing to you).

I think a Domme would sometimes satisfy your requests if you made her happy in other ways first. Unless you are talking about a pro-domme who does what you want.
___

quote:

I would say that females seeking any sort of alternative sexuality on sites like these are outnumbered by men...But I do not have the official numbers to prove it.

What about in general?

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 8/18/2010 9:20:36 PM >

(in reply to CometSiph)

Post #: 158

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/19/2010 12:49:39 AM

GingerGirl4USA

Posts: 28
Joined: 8/18/2010
Status: offline

Excelent advice...thanks

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious

I've recently debated one of the labels mentioned on another thread. One of the major problems with that ideology is a submissive/slave's willingness to embrace and/or validate the label rather than refute its applicability and define the behavior in verbiage both can understand with recognizable associations. Unfortunately, the practice continues because it largely goes unquestioned and challenged. Calling someone those things simply suggests they're behaving this way at a given moment in relation to the person they're dealing with. But to posit this is who you are is pretty far reaching in my opinion.

~porcelaine

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 159

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/19/2010 2:01:12 AM

SauvignonNoir

Posts: 1
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline

I have never, in all of the years that I was a member of this site, felt compelled to post or respond to a forum discussion, so the fact that I have acted on an urge to do so is indicative of how much this topic resonates with me. I not only identify with your plight Juliana, but TwoShoes, NuevaVida and Leadership, among others have all said it well: to each his own. One of the first proverbs I encountered after joining the BDSM community was, in response to someone on a list serve starting a thread maligning a dom's character, "one man's hell is another man's heaven." I too struggled for years with the pejorative application of labels (brat, SAM, etc.) and with derisive comments about my lack of submissive nature and my failure to fit the "mold." It took many years and a lot of self reflection to accept that my personality is what makes me "me," and if I were to give that up merely to please someone else, we would both eventually be disappointed.

It's not easy to say, and it's even harder to believe in the face of "seemingly" happy couples parading before me on a daily basis, but during those rare moments, when I am in my most rational frame of mind, I firmly assert that I'd if I am unable to find someone who appreciates the woman I am, I'd rather be alone. Not that I believe that I am perfect or that I couldn't benefit from personal growth, whether related to my submission or in some other area; but I seek a person who would facilitate that growth through inspiration rather than intimidation.

So thank you Julia for raising the topic :-) and to many of you whose responses were enlightening. And, to address another line of argumentation in this thread Julia, it's really easy for arguments to lose their scope when so many people are commenting on completely different aspects of your initial question. I think that it was clear, to me at least, that you were not implying that only submissives suffer from derogatory categorization, nor did I infer that you denounced all "labels" as being pejorative in nature. Like a few others have indicated, I too am very "categorical" as it helps me organize my world as efficiently as possible. (A character trait that has a tendency to create discomfort.) However, labels, no matter how innocuous they could be, are used frequently as a means of justification for subjugation and yes, it is possible to intend to negate a group, as history has demonstrated time and time again, by using a label to imply that such a group was not worthy of consideration. While I'm more than happy to call myself a SAM, it is also possible for a dominant (or even in some cases, another submissive) to use it to imply that I don't "measure up" and while I have no shame in being a black woman, i am occasionally blanketed with the label with the intent of minimizing my accomplishments and implying my achievements were less than fairly attained. So yes, while I may not be demeaned despite the attempts of another to do so, that does not in any way diminish the malevolence of the action and the intent underlying it. If only sticks and stones broke bons, there would be far fewer conflicts in the world than mere words have contributed to.

sn
~submission....a new fragrance from L'Oreal

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 160

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