RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (Full Version)

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sweetsub1957 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 5:47:54 PM)

~FR~
I've read all the responses so far, and my opinion is this: Before the play starts with someone other than your partner, the question of who will provide the aftercare should be settled, whether it will be the play partner or your usual partner. I would be upset if, say, my partner had been out partying with another gal & comes home and pukes and wants me to clean up after him. Hell, that's her job.

~sweetsub~



newprofile2010 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:04:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KariCloud

Him not meeting your expectations this one time says nothing about his ability to provide critical help during emergencies.



I don't see it that way. He has the ABILITY, certainly, it is his willingness I'm doubting. Not based on his actions, but based on our lengthy conversation the next day. He's one of the most competent people I know in an emergency. Having him tell me that he wasn't responsible for me, for something so minor as warming me up and getting me a drink or water, well that says he doesn't want to be called upon in an emergency. I'm sure we'll cover this ground when we talk again.

quote:



I'd say, without knowing anything of his side of the story, that you dropped the ball on this one and aren't being considerate of him at all. What if HE was experiencing an endorphin rollercoaster just as much as you were, and had been sleeping it off? Would that change your perception of the event any? Didn't you say he was playing/having sex/being intimate with his other partner? You knew when you asked if he was ok with you playing, that he'd be doing his own playing with the other partner, yes? What if he had the same exact expectation that YOU did: that you'd care for him after he played with his other partner, what then? Why would your aftercare be more important than his? Try putting yourself in his place, and I think you'd find yourself pretty irritated if someone had done that to you.


He would be irate to the point of genuine anger at the mere hint that I (or anyone else) was to ever, ever, ever take care of him. NO ONE has to "take care of" him, under any circumstances, and I best not forget it. This is our relationship understanding. It took a long time for him to even be comfortable with me doing his dishes, even though I like to do service oriented things because it makes me feel good. He got angry when I packed his shampoo and toiletries for a trip, as he is "not a child". I think we may just have different care taking expectations.

He does not bottom, ever, and so an endorphin roller coaster would be a really surprising event to have happened. If our friends that walked me up and into the hotel room had seen that he'd suddenly become ill, or had some other issue, they would have stayed. His other partner would have stepped up and taken care of us both. She almost did that on the evening in question, and asked me how I was doing on the morning after. I had to reassure HER that his actions were from inexperience and sleepiness, not genuine anger or coldness towards me. I said this, of course, before our discussion that afternoon, the discussion that caused all of these problems.

quote:



You're the one who made assumptions here, not him. Neither of you had any agreement to aftercare beforehand. If I were him, I'd want you to apologize for your mistake and agree to be clear about expectations beforehand if there ever is a next time. Oh, and an apology for blaming him when you are responsible for what happened wouldn't hurt, too.



A direct agreement for aftercare for that situation, no. A year long relationship where he says I belong to him, that he loves me, aftercare each and every time he's played with me or I've played with another - we had that. I will be certain to ask every time from now on, but I feel that I had a reasonable expectation that, like others have said, if I had asked permission to go downstairs to the bar with friends and had then come back and been sick that morning, he would have gotten up and done something really simple like bring me a towel. Yell at me later, sure. Leave me in the moment to flounder by myself, then tell me the next day that I wasn't his responsibility? No.

I apologized the next day when he told me he was irritated by what happened. I apologized immediately and sincerely. I offered to arrange aftercare with someone else next time, told him that I would have left if I had been physically able to do so, that I would have called someone to come take me out of the hotel room I paid for so that he would not be burdened with the "mess someone else made" - that someone else being my top.

It is not the EVENT that is the problem for me, it is not his desire to not provide aftercare in the future - it is his lengthy and determined rant about how he is not responsible for me that gives me pause. I understand that he has a right to feel this way, and I understand that his feelings may have been the result of other issues he's going through, but if I take him at his word then the relationship style he requires is not the one I want. I'm not basing this on his actions, I'm basing it on the discussion we had the day after. If he is sincere -and I asked him repeatedly if he meant it and if I understood correctly, told him that it made me feel like he wasn't even my friend if he was serious about the things he said- then we have different needs and different relationship styles.



AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:13:38 PM)

~Fast Reply~

I have only read the OP.

Frop the story you posted, I think you are completely out of line.

You EXPECXTED him to read your mind. Obviously if you had to explain to him that many subs would want aftercare from their Own Top after a difficult session, is evidence that you never discussed this situation befor hand, so after the fact you expected him to surrender his own will to you and make your will his own. You wanted him to do what YOU thought was right having never discussed how a situation like this should happen.

I would also get new "Friends" The ones who took you down to the floor and Co-Topped you, they are responsible for you when you Master is not there, That is the agreement that they made when they took responsibility for you safety and well being when they strung you up in the first place, if you were going to NEED your Masters aftercare then you sure as hell should have made this clear before hand, and if you didn't do so then you only have yourself to blame, as far as I know your Master is not a Swami and cannot read minds.

Finally, he said you could do as you pleased, meaning that you were responsible for your own actions, what you did and who you did it with was up to YOU. If you allowed excess to take you too far, then sadly I feel this is a very good lesson for you and all the things that you Master said I agree 100% with, expecting him to clean up someone elses mess is completely unacceptable.

And if you say you have fallen out of love with him over this, that you have no emotion for him at all over this.... do him a favor. END IT. Cause selfish behavior that leads to you wanting to take your toys and go home, will only serve to cause more problems later on.

Unless there are things I am unaware of, unless there was a discussion where he agreed to give you aftercare no matter what the situation, if these things did happen perhaps I will change my mind but from what you posted you are one seriously spoiled sub, who really needs to take some personal responsibility for getting what they asked for and not having taken the proper precautions to make sure you were taken care of.

To anyone who faults the Master for this, I ask what I always do, if it was not agreed to why does he have any obligation that he did not agree to in the beginning of the relationship.

QSM



littlewonder -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:15:28 PM)

Have you ever stop to think that maybe he only agrees to allow you to play with others because he wants to make you happy but deep down inside he absolutely hates the idea of you running off with others and he would rather be the one providing those highs for you in a long term committed monogamous relationship? Maybe he only plays with others when you do so to take his mind off the thought of what you are doing.

Yeah you said he had no problem with aftercare before. Imo I think he probably said and it looked like he had no problems all the while he was holding it all inside...but then it all came to a head when you came home and he realized he hates the idea of others being what he isn't to you.





AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:23:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Have you ever stop to think that maybe he only agrees to allow you to play with others because he wants to make you happy but deep down inside he absolutely hates the idea of you running off with others and he would rather be the one providing those highs for you in a long term committed monogamous relationship? Maybe he only plays with others when you do so to take his mind off the thought of what you are doing.


The statement I underlined is really unfair to assume as it would imply that he was not being honest when he told her it was okay for her to go play, from what I understand he didn't care that she played he cause that she expected him to clean up someone elses mess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Yeah you said he had no problem with aftercare before. Imo I think he probably said and it looked like he had no problems all the while he was holding it all inside...but then it all came to a head when you came home and he realized he hates the idea of others being what he isn't to you.


I would be more interested if the other aftercare was something that he witnessed, I am wondering if this was the first time he was not present while she was scening that she wanted aftercare, if this is the case I would be equally as upset as he was... It would be like someone wanting you to put something back together you didn't take apart how would you know where to start?

The Idea that she was unable to speak basically zoned and basically close to being comatose, I would be more than just a little angry and I personally would have used this as a very expensive lesson, and one that I would want well maked. This is what happens when you have expectations that someone else is going to coddle you after you screw up.

And If I am asleep, I am in no position to give aftercare, once asleep there IS NO getting me up, at least not without seriousl backlash.

QSM





Andalusite -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:32:07 PM)

Littlewonder, he was poly before they got involved, and has made it clear that he plans to continue.

Zevar, I'm confused. By accusing her of lying, do you mean her pretending things were ok even though she was upset about the conversation, or using an anonymous screen name here? If the former, I agree that's a major problem - it's not always the right time and place to discuss relationship difficulties, and waiting until the steam blows off can be a good idea. I think it's reasonable to express a need for some time to think things over without either lying or discussing it right that second.

Newprofile, I've had to get aftercare from someone else after a scene before, but it wasn't my partner, and I was aware up-front that it was a possibility. If I was in a relationship with someone, and he didn't want to cuddle and got mad because my feet or hands were cold, I'd probably question whether or not we were compatible. That has nothing to do with aftercare - I'm just snuggly, and sometimes I get cold. It definitely sounds like there's more going on, but that most likely he won't be willing to discuss it. :( I hope the two of you can sort it out, but resigning yourself to not being able to depend on him seems like an odd basis for a relationship to me. I also get so discombobulated sometimes (but not every time, and took me by surprise the first time I reacted that intensely) that I can't say no, or my own name, or walk a straight line. I can understand wanting to cling to him, but in that specific situation, I wouldn't have felt comfortable having someone leave the party until they were at least reasonably coordinated again. If if he was exhausted and didn't want to deal with you, he should have communicated that to you and your friends before they left. In your shoes, I wouldn't automatically break up with him, and I would assume that the numbness you describe is subdrop, rather than genuinely how I felt. My emotions don't flip-flop that quickly, and feeling hurt and upset is different from going so totally blank. Definitely take care of yourself and wait until you're feeling a little more normal before discussing it. When you're in this state, it's not a good time to make any relationship decisions or get in an argument. Do let him know you're having difficulty, but that you need some time to think things over.



newprofile2010 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:41:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

I have only read the OP.

Frop the story you posted, I think you are completely out of line.



Perhaps reading the rest would give more insight.

quote:



You EXPECXTED him to read your mind. Obviously if you had to explain to him that many subs would want aftercare from their Own Top after a difficult session, is evidence that you never discussed this situation befor hand, so after the fact you expected him to surrender his own will to you and make your will his own. You wanted him to do what YOU thought was right having never discussed how a situation like this should happen.



We have acted out situations like this before, not just discussed but actually DONE. My stating that many subs want aftercare from their own top was in response to his asking "Why would you even want me to do that, you had X and Y". And it has nothing to do with surrendering will. I started to feel ill and wanted a blanket. Health needs are not power issues.

quote:



I would also get new "Friends" The ones who took you down to the floor and Co-Topped you, they are responsible for you when you Master is not there, That is the agreement that they made when they took responsibility for you safety and well being when they strung you up in the first place, if you were going to NEED your Masters aftercare then you sure as hell should have made this clear before hand, and if you didn't do so then you only have yourself to blame, as far as I know your Master is not a Swami and cannot read minds.



One, I've never used the word Master. This is my boyfriend and he occasionally tops me. He refuses to sit down and discuss any type of D/s relationship expectations, other than to say no one can agree on what it is and it doesn't make sense. He's a friend and a romantic partner that I have bdsm encounters with, we have no power structure in our relationship.

Two, I did not know I would need my boyfriend's aftercare, this was a new depth of experience, it was neither aimed for nor expected. As I said in previous replies, I usually have a "runner's high" floaty feeling that is extremely functional and after about ten minutes even allows me to drive. This was a "punch in the face" surprise with the intensity. My friends, OUR friends (they are just as much his as they are mine) GAVE me aftercare in the dungeon, they wrapped me in blankets, had me sit quietly and patted me while one packed up toys, then took me to my room and spoke with my boyfriend as they returned me.

True, I could have (and will now) outlined every possible eventuality that might have occurred that night. "Maybe I'll have an unexpected emotional reaction and come to the hotel room crying - will that bother you too much or should I stay in the hall until I'm done?" "Maybe I'll fall and sprain my back, that will make me restless for the remainder of the night and since we share a bed that might bother you. Should I plan to sleep on the floor?" "Maybe a toy will snap accidentally and scratch my skin so hard I require stitches. We drove here in your car, that means I'll need to wake you to get the keys. Is that too much of an imposition?".

The possibilities are endless.

quote:



Finally, he said you could do as you pleased, meaning that you were responsible for your own actions, what you did and who you did it with was up to YOU. If you allowed excess to take you too far, then sadly I feel this is a very good lesson for you and all the things that you Master said I agree 100% with, expecting him to clean up someone elses mess is completely unacceptable.



I did not allow excess, the scene was not any harder than others I've had in the past, I didn't even have bruises.

quote:



And if you say you have fallen out of love with him over this, that you have no emotion for him at all over this.... do him a favor. END IT. Cause selfish behavior that leads to you wanting to take your toys and go home, will only serve to cause more problems later on.



As I said in the original posting, I had (I'm feeling a little better - I like the kitten now... a little) no feelings for my kitten either. Or my job, or my life in general. I was totally numb, not hungry, exhausted and had no feeling for anything. This was describing a symptom of the endorphin drop I was experiencing. I had/have no emotion at ALL for a few days, and physically felt really crappy. I explained this to let others know what I was experiencing.

quote:



Unless there are things I am unaware of, unless there was a discussion where he agreed to give you aftercare no matter what the situation, if these things did happen perhaps I will change my mind but from what you posted you are one seriously spoiled sub, who really needs to take some personal responsibility for getting what they asked for and not having taken the proper precautions to make sure you were taken care of.

To anyone who faults the Master for this, I ask what I always do, if it was not agreed to why does he have any obligation that he did not agree to in the beginning of the relationship.

QSM


Again, he's not my Master, we don't have a power arrangement, and he's done care after a scene with others before. I had the expectation that if his preference had changed he would let me know BEFORE hand, not the day after.



Elisabella -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:48:48 PM)

-FR-

OP, I think you're overreacting. You say you don't have a power arrangement, and if that is the case it is NOT your partner's "responsibility" to take care of you. It is your responsibility to take care of yourself.

I understand that you're hurt that he was annoyed with you instead of helping. He's probably hurt that you came in during the middle of the night and woke him up and expected his attention. What you did IMO was rude. You made a list of the "differences" between this time and last time - last time, did you come in and wake him up and expect care, or was he awake and with you from the start? That's a huge difference IMO and I agree with his analogy, you went out, partied it up, stumbled home and woke him up, then you got MAD that he wasn't all "ohhh poor honey let me help you" and are completely inconsiderate of the fact that he's not happy with you about it either.

Yes I do think he should have gotten you water and a blanket. I agree with Cheryl's post - help when help is needed, save the anger for later. But it truly amazes me that you are mad at him, for not taking care of you, when you voluntarily went out and got into a state where you're unable to take care of yourself. You're neither a child nor a pet - you do need to learn that it is up to YOU and YOU alone to make sure you are taken care of when you need it, and you dropped the ball on this one by making assumptions that other people have the obligation to wake up in the middle of the night to care for you when you're in an altered state. That is incredibly self centered.

I do hope you and your partner work this out, I hope you can both start to see each other's point of view on this.



AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:50:15 PM)

If he is not responsible for you in the terms that he has authority after you then in general I don't think he should be required to give you anything. He has made no agreement to do so. There is no power Authority, he is simply your top and for this scene he wasn't even your top.

I really think you are being very selfish right now and if you do decide to leave, you would be the one losing on this.

Just my opinion and after reading all 5 pages... sorry still feel you are really in the wrong on this. In reality considering his history with his father... I would have put you out right then and there, as you had no respect for his history and how that could effect him, even if it didn't knowing his histroy and then basically doing EXACTLY what his dad did is pretty bad.

QSM



Andalusite -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:51:28 PM)

I've been in relationships that didn't include power exchange, but we still were responsible for taking care of each other if needed. That's a normal gf/bf or spouse kind of thing to expect in any relationship.



newprofile2010 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:54:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Have you ever stop to think that maybe he only agrees to allow you to play with others because he wants to make you happy but deep down inside he absolutely hates the idea of you running off with others and he would rather be the one providing those highs for you in a long term committed monogamous relationship? Maybe he only plays with others when you do so to take his mind off the thought of what you are doing.



He's been poly for 15 years, and had a girlfriend when I met him and has added a partner since we began dating. I am monogamous, do not even casually date others, and so no, I don't think that he only plays with others when I do :) Playing with others was something I had never, ever done in any relationship prior to this one because I am very monogamously wired. Not everyone is, I get that, but I am.

He turns down requests for play from me, rarely if ever initiates play, and so no, I really don't think he would rather be providing me those highs in a "long term, committed monogamous relationship". He is close to, but not quite, anti-monogamy. He feels that monogamous people are the weird exceptions. I am a weird exception :)

quote:



Yeah you said he had no problem with aftercare before. Imo I think he probably said and it looked like he had no problems all the while he was holding it all inside...but then it all came to a head when you came home and he realized he hates the idea of others being what he isn't to you.



You really might be right on this point, but if so I don't know what to do about it. I said on our first date "I'm submissive, would really love to work towards an eventual D/s relationship once a regular vanilla one is established, am a masochist and my pain tolerance surprises me and is something I want to explore, I like bondage, I like role play, etc". If he wants to provide that then awesome. If he doesn't want me to play with others and instead wants to play with me, that would be fantastic. I've turned to people in our mutual friend circle, people that I trust and am not romantically interested in, for non sexual play. They have been able to provide me with things that I need in my life, things that he doesn't want to do - or due to family issues has not been able to do (emotionally able to). I thought, from his description on our first date, that this is what poly WAS, that you didn't have to give people up if they weren't a perfect fit, that you couldn't expect anyone to meet all of your needs. That was HIS pitch, not mine!




juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:54:29 PM)

quote:

Two, I did not know I would need my boyfriend's aftercare, this was a new depth of experience, it was neither aimed for nor expected. As I said in previous replies, I usually have a "runner's high" floaty feeling that is extremely functional and after about ten minutes even allows me to drive. This was a "punch in the face" surprise with the intensity. My friends, OUR friends (they are just as much his as they are mine) GAVE me aftercare in the dungeon, they wrapped me in blankets, had me sit quietly and patted me while one packed up toys, then took me to my room and spoke with my boyfriend as they returned me.


I have had the feeling of vertigo, nausea, and the world come crashing in on me from play. Having experienced this complete and total lack of being able to care for myself I cannot imagine not being cared for. I would care for anyone I saw in physical distress, and his refusal to help you says a lot about him. There seems to be a lot of people on this thread that "don't get it", perhaps because they have never been in that physical space, but if someone is shaking, vomiting, and telling you the room is upside down, that person needs help. To tell that person "Well, I didn't do it" is the epitome of self centeredness.

I get he might not have known you were going into shock (which is what was happening to you), but to continue to assert he owed you nothing even after you attempted to communicate th depths of your need is clueless at the least, and at worse he is a callous bastard. Seriously, ask yourself this, if you saw a stranger on the street that was suffering vertigo, trembling, etc etc etc... would you help that person? If you saw a stranger that was spilling shit and telling you that they were ill, would you help them? He probably would help a stranger more than he helped you... and that is fucking sad.

Recently I had to contact my former dom and tell him his house key was stolen from me while I was travelling (along with my checkbook). I apologized and told him how sorry I was about this... he emailed me and said more or less "fuck the key, how are YOU?" We aren't even seeing each other anymore, and he cared about my welfare... I don't want people who aren't like that in my life.



newprofile2010 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:57:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I've been in relationships that didn't include power exchange, but we still were responsible for taking care of each other if needed. That's a normal gf/bf or spouse kind of thing to expect in any relationship.



Indeed. I would expect my friends to come pick me up from the hospital if I fell and broke my ankle during a night out drinking. I would expect a friend to be there if my pet died and I needed to talk late at night. I would expect to PROVIDE these things as well.

I understand if he doesn't want that kind of care taking relationship, but I do, and will have to discover when we talk if we are on the same page.



KariCloud -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 6:59:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: newprofile2010


quote:

ORIGINAL: KariCloud

Him not meeting your expectations this one time says nothing about his ability to provide critical help during emergencies.



I don't see it that way. He has the ABILITY, certainly, it is his willingness I'm doubting. Not based on his actions, but based on our lengthy conversation the next day. He's one of the most competent people I know in an emergency. Having him tell me that he wasn't responsible for me, for something so minor as warming me up and getting me a drink or water, well that says he doesn't want to be called upon in an emergency. I'm sure we'll cover this ground when we talk again.



So, because in a NON-emergency situation, he held you responsible for yourself, you doubt his reaction in an ACTUAL emergency? See, that isn't logical to me. His reaction to me sounds like he was holding you responsible for not having made sure you'd get the aftercare you wanted. That is completely different than ignoring you when you are in an emergency situation.

Also, this one time he didn't react as you wanted him to. How many emergencies have you experienced with him, and how many other small expectations have you had with him in your two whole years of knowing him, has he shown a failure to act?

You seem to think that once is enough to show a trend. It really isn't. I understand that you're upset at this one time and his reaction to it, but once is just that, once. It is a good thing that my supervisors don't think once is the end of the world and proof of a person's lack of competence, or there'd be no medics and no EMTs still employed!

quote:



He would be irate to the point of genuine anger at the mere hint that I (or anyone else) was to ever, ever, ever take care of him. NO ONE has to "take care of" him, under any circumstances, and I best not forget it. This is our relationship understanding. It took a long time for him to even be comfortable with me doing his dishes, even though I like to do service oriented things because it makes me feel good. He got angry when I packed his shampoo and toiletries for a trip, as he is "not a child". I think we may just have different care taking expectations.



Alright, but who is it that takes care of him? Himself! The idea still applies. He was taking care of himself, and you barged in unexpectedly and demanded that he tend to you, you told him that your wants were more important than his by your actions. I'm not surprised that he got upset over it. How would you have felt if someone barged in and demanded attention of him while he was taking care of you? You'd be pissed unless it was an actual emergency, yes? What if that's what is behind his reaction to you?

quote:



He does not bottom, ever, and so an endorphin roller coaster would be a really surprising event to have happened. If our friends that walked me up and into the hotel room had seen that he'd suddenly become ill, or had some other issue, they would have stayed. His other partner would have stepped up and taken care of us both. She almost did that on the evening in question, and asked me how I was doing on the morning after. I had to reassure HER that his actions were from inexperience and sleepiness, not genuine anger or coldness towards me. I said this, of course, before our discussion that afternoon, the discussion that caused all of these problems.



Er. Read up a bit on human physiology, I think you need it. Bottoms aren't the only one who get endorphin rushes. And, bottoms are not the only ones who need special care after a scene. Even after just sex, people often need some time to rest! The idea still holds. Whether your friends saw him unable to care for you or not, he wasn't able to care for you. Don't put the responsibility on your friends. In the end, no matter what agreements we have with our partners, we are individually responsible for ourselves. In this case, you didn't make arrangements to get the care you needed. He isn't responsible for your mistake! He might have made allowances for it, but it sounds like he simply wasn't able to. Top or not, Dom or not, he is still ONLY human. You sound like you're expecting him to be perfect, magically stronger and more capable than ordinary humans. That just isn't the case and here is proof. He's only human. He can only work with what information you give him and when he doesn't know, he can't always anticipate. And he can't always just BE ready without that.


quote:



A direct agreement for aftercare for that situation, no. A year long relationship where he says I belong to him, that he loves me, aftercare each and every time he's played with me or I've played with another - we had that. I will be certain to ask every time from now on, but I feel that I had a reasonable expectation that, like others have said, if I had asked permission to go downstairs to the bar with friends and had then come back and been sick that morning, he would have gotten up and done something really simple like bring me a towel. Yell at me later, sure. Leave me in the moment to flounder by myself, then tell me the next day that I wasn't his responsibility? No.



If he is not able to care for you, he is not able to care for you. You have ultimate responsibility for yourself regardless of what relationships you're in. The fault is still yours for not arranging what you needed from him in advance. It is a small mistake, but you refusing to accept responsibility for it is making it a much bigger mistake. If he is only human, then he is unable to always make allowances for your mistakes. That's life. Nothing in life is perfect. Accept that you have ultimate responsibility to make sure you get what you want and need, and this may not happen too often!

The guy is stressed, yes? Give the poor guy some room to be mortal like the rest of us, let it go, relax, be there for him how you can and take care of yourself. Give it a few weeks, a month. Then, WITHOUT bringing up past events like this one, ask him if he is ok with discussing where you guys are at in the relationship, expectations, responsibilities, etc. Then, you two can work out what kind of relationship you both want, what expectations you both have, and procedures for unexpected situations. But try to remember he isn't a god, ok? He can only do so much, and that is not much at all if he doesn't know what you need and what you want. Work on that "clear, direct communication" stuff on your side of things, too. That'll help a whole lot.




BitaTruble -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 7:04:52 PM)

fr

I've read through the thread.. read your OP and subsequent clarifications and I just wanted to say that if someone who was just a friend.. not a bf/gf .. just a good friend came to me in the middle of the night and needed my help.. I'd help them. I'd get them water, a cookie.. a blanket for their cold hands.. whatever, because that's what a good friend does. They hold back your hair when you're vomiting in the toilet.. they are making you a cup of coffee, commiserating with you and are concerned when you're in a loopy place regardless of what got you there. I wouldn't do that because it's my job or responsibility to *clean up the mess*.. but just because they are my friend and need me. Perhaps I view things different but if I had a boyfriend, he would also be my *best* friend.. so for me, this is really a no brainer. Take care of you when you need it... and talk about things later.. but I wouldn't let a friend flounder like that.. much less a bf/gf. This, to me, really has nothing to do with any sort of dynamic.. it's one human taking care of another human in their time of need. Friends do that for each other.. good friends do even more than that.. and best friends go above and beyond the call of duty. That's why they are best friends.

All that said.. best friends don't dump you for making a mistake either. He's been there every time for you.. but this time you feel he wasn't there enough. Okay, so maybe he did screw up.. but you have the choice to help him when he stumbles by reaching out a hand or you can throw some rocks at his head. Your choice but if you expect him to be your best friend.. then you need to be his best friend too and cut him some slack. You're both only human. You're both flawed. He's not ever going to be perfect and neither are you. None of us are.. so while you ponder your situation, just try to keep that in mind.

Hope you guys can work things out because it sounds like things were pretty good before this incident and, if you cut each other a little slack, they might still be good and good friends, good relationships.. they aren't that easy to find.



newprofile2010 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 7:07:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

OP, I think you're overreacting. You say you don't have a power arrangement, and if that is the case it is NOT your partner's "responsibility" to take care of you. It is your responsibility to take care of yourself.

I understand that you're hurt that he was annoyed with you instead of helping. He's probably hurt that you came in during the middle of the night and woke him up and expected his attention. What you did IMO was rude. You made a list of the "differences" between this time and last time - last time, did you come in and wake him up and expect care, or was he awake and with you from the start? That's a huge difference IMO and I agree with his analogy, you went out, partied it up, stumbled home and woke him up, then you got MAD that he wasn't all "ohhh poor honey let me help you" and are completely inconsiderate of the fact that he's not happy with you about it either.



He knew when I left it was midnight, and he knew when I planned to be back it would be late. He gave consent for me to go, and knew he would have to get up to let me back in.

Again, I did not go out and have ten tequilas and expect him to stay up with me for three hours, I went and played as agreed and came back when agreed. I had a different and unexpected reaction. If I had fallen and sprained my ankle I would have expected him to be supportive as well.

I -did- drop the ball in depending on him to be nice to me. Now that he's stated he finds the idea repugnant I'll take care to not rely on him. I'm not mad, hurt a little but honestly not mad, about the fumbled evening. I'm mulling over the things he said the next day, things about his desire for responsibility and even closeness. From what he stated the day after he does not WANT a relationship where we would be mutually responsible for each other. I do.



newprofile2010 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 7:12:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

fr

I've read through the thread.. read your OP and subsequent clarifications and I just wanted to say that if someone who was just a friend.. not a bf/gf .. just a good friend came to me in the middle of the night and needed my help.. I'd help them. I'd get them water, a cookie.. a blanket for their cold hands.. whatever, because that's what a good friend does. They hold back your hair when you're vomiting in the toilet.. they are making you a cup of coffee, commiserating with you and are concerned when you're in a loopy place regardless of what got you there. I wouldn't do that because it's my job or responsibility to *clean up the mess*.. but just because they are my friend and need me. Perhaps I view things different but if I had a boyfriend, he would also be my *best* friend.. so for me, this is really a no brainer. Take care of you when you need it... and talk about things later.. but I wouldn't let a friend flounder like that.. much less a bf/gf. This, to me, really has nothing to do with any sort of dynamic.. it's one human taking care of another human in their time of need. Friends do that for each other.. good friends do even more than that.. and best friends go above and beyond the call of duty. That's why they are best friends.

All that said.. best friends don't dump you for making a mistake either. He's been there every time for you.. but this time you feel he wasn't there enough. Okay, so maybe he did screw up.. but you have the choice to help him when he stumbles by reaching out a hand or you can throw some rocks at his head. Your choice but if you expect him to be your best friend.. then you need to be his best friend too and cut him some slack. You're both only human. You're both flawed. He's not ever going to be perfect and neither are you. None of us are.. so while you ponder your situation, just try to keep that in mind.

Hope you guys can work things out because it sounds like things were pretty good before this incident and, if you cut each other a little slack, they might still be good and good friends, good relationships.. they aren't that easy to find.


If, after we talk, we can come to a mutual conclusion that we both want the kind of relationship that you describe above, then yes, it's worth a lot and I'll consider this a learning experience.

Can't I throw rocks WHILE reaching out a hand :) ? Seriously, that's why I'm here to vent and get the issues all worked out before we have "the talk". If I felt he wasn't worthwhile then why even make the effort to get feedback here? He's worth a lot to me. I just need him to say, and show, that I'm worth a lot to him, too.



Elisabella -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 7:16:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: newprofile2010
From what he stated the day after he does not WANT a relationship where we would be mutually responsible for each other. I do.


You have your answer then.

I wish you both the best of luck finding a partner who meets your needs.



newprofile2010 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 7:23:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

his. In reality considering his history with his father... I would have put you out right then and there, as you had no respect for his history and how that could effect him, even if it didn't knowing his histroy and then basically doing EXACTLY what his dad did is pretty bad.

QSM


We'll just have to disagree on this one, and remind me to never share a hotel room with you, lol. Putting me "out" in the hotel hall, naked, when I've paid for the room isn't something I'd do to anyone, much less a friend.

I left the room for 90 minutes, with his consent and permission. I came back feeling unexpectedly ill. If this is something that he has a hard time with (and we've had friends come over in giggly drunk states late in the night, which he was fine with, so no reason to expect it might bother him - only in hindsight as I fumble for excuses does grasping at that seem reasonable) then by all means I'll avoid it.

His discussions the next day leave me cold, as I want a relationship where my partner feels and exhibits more concern and care taking than he has stated he wants to do. Look, I respect that people may want different things out of their relationships, and I even offered to scale this back down to a "friends with benefits" situation if he wanted. We'll see how it goes.



AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 7:36:32 PM)

I meant out of the relationship.... you seem to have a problem following context.

You may want to accept that what you hear and what people have said are not the same thing and clearify things along the line.

I would have packed and been on my way. I will never allow someone to put me in a situation like those of my childhood unless I agree to it. Like I have said he nebver agreed to be your fall guy, and I think your continued desire to shuck the personal responsibility you had in this and put it on him is very telling about your expectations on others and your lack of desire to take responsibility for your own actions based on decision you chose to make.

You talk about his Consent and Permission which I still find difficult when you made it clear you have no power dynamic he is simply your top and someone you are in a relationship with. I will fault him for not making it clear to you that he had no intention on dealing with the aftermath of your play decisions. Regardless of how heavy the scene, how hard or soft it was, YOU choose a top to play with and then YOU agree to what would be happening, and then YOU allowed it to go as far as YOU want it to go, then when YOU had all your fun, you expected HIM to take care of you and do all the work while someone else got to do all the play. If there is no Power Dynamic, tell you what I would be equally pissed at your failure to see why he is rather upset with you. Right or Wrong or who is supposed to do what and what a REAL friend would do, can you not even see why he would be upset with you, do you not see where what you did was selfish and pretty rude?

As for what you want... I can see it.... why are you not giving him the same thing you are expecting from him. You are expecting him to care more than they say they want to and yet you are willing to throw it all away because he didn't do exactly what you wanted him to do.

Selfish.

Childish.

High School.

This is a Lesson for you. In the future I bet you dime to dollar that you will make for DAMN sure that that you cover your bases where aftercare is conserned.

Now, the real question is do you have to lose what you had with this guy to learn this lesson or can you own your part in this and since there is no implied power dynamic maybe spend some time discussing this issue and comeing to terms with what you and he expect in these situations.

You can only take so much before someone refused to stop giving, you are only seeing your own side of this and missing the forest for the trees.

QSM



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