RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (Full Version)

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CeriseNin -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 8:53:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

You were not about to die.

You didn't need anything.


Said like someone who never experienced subspace... I worry for the women you top. Guess what? A sub can have broken bones and not know it because of their mental state. I would not want to play with a man that did not understand that damage is not always obvious, nor is the sub able to communicate it. Out of human decency it would seem one human being would want to make sure another human being wasn't having internal bleeding or broken bones before dismissing their plight.

What we do is not safe. There has been more than one person accidentally injured severely by play.... now the top she was playing with was not overly familiar with her, and her partner perhaps might have taken his head out of his ass long enough to give a shit if she needed medical attention...



Yes and as a friend. If I felt she should have done this or that instead, we could talk in the bright light of day while sipping coffee, when I know she is all right. I'd absolutely expect a friend to help me no matter what my state when I stumble in, and they can count on me, too. And give me shit about it later.



laurell3 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:08:03 AM)

We can come up with all the theories in the world, but the reality is that shit happens in relationships and no one is perfect. They are either going to find a way to communicate past this or not. I'm not sure either of them are horrible or wrong, they just have different expectations of each other right now. I hope they can work out a set of expectations that works for both of them.



juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:08:54 AM)

I had a party a few months back. This gal I really like brought a bottle of expensive tequila for us to do shots with. She got hammered. She was at my party with her sister and another roommate, but I didn't want her to leave my place and I wanted to watch her. I did not want her to try to walk home, even with company. I WANTED to take care of her because I like her and think she is a sweet person. I hardly know her all that well, she always comes to my parties because I know her sister very well and they are inseparable. My point is that she was in my home, and drunk, and I felt responsible. I would feel 10 times that level of responsibility for a lover. I have taken care of drunken lovers, they have taken care of me... geesh, it isn't asking for a blood sacrifice! We are talking kindness to another person. Why do so many people have a problem with being kind?

Now if someone comes home drunk once every week or two, or even once a month and acts the ass, I can see being a hard ass and telling them they have a problem and you won't enable them. But the OP isn't in that scenario... she does not do this all the time, it isn't a regular habit of hers... why is she being responded to on this thread like she is a stereotypical drunken lout that wakes the whole house in a stupor on payday?



CeriseNin -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:19:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

We can come up with all the theories in the world, but the reality is that shit happens in relationships and no one is perfect. They are either going to find a way to communicate past this or not. I'm not sure either of them are horrible or wrong, they just have different expectations of each other right now. I hope they can work out a set of expectations that works for both of them.

This is true, but one would think a friend could get out of bed for a glass a water and give hugs. Maybe they aren't even that or maybe he was having a bad night. As you say, we don't their expectations. Best of luck to them.



CeriseNin -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:27:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I had a party a few months back. This gal I really like brought a bottle of expensive tequila for us to do shots with. She got hammered. She was at my party with her sister and another roommate, but I didn't want her to leave my place and I wanted to watch her. I did not want her to try to walk home, even with company. I WANTED to take care of her because I like her and think she is a sweet person. I hardly know her all that well, she always comes to my parties because I know her sister very well and they are inseparable. My point is that she was in my home, and drunk, and I felt responsible. I would feel 10 times that level of responsibility for a lover. I have taken care of drunken lovers, they have taken care of me... geesh, it isn't asking for a blood sacrifice! We are talking kindness to another person. Why do so many people have a problem with being kind?

Now if someone comes home drunk once every week or two, or even once a month and acts the ass, I can see being a hard ass and telling them they have a problem and you won't enable them. But the OP isn't in that scenario... she does not do this all the time, it isn't a regular habit of hers... why is she being responded to on this thread like she is a stereotypical drunken lout that wakes the whole house in a stupor on payday?

I wonder if the responses would've been different if the issue wasn't framed around aftercare, but a friend asking for help from another. Maybe not, but I see this as one person who needed a little help from a friend and him not being interested in providing it. He wasn't obligated to, but my basic response is to help a friend in need if asked, even if I'm yanked out of bed at dark thirty. That doesn't make me better than him or anyone else, it's just how I handle it.



subsfaith -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:31:35 AM)

This post really pushes my buttons. 

The obvious answer to me, having read all the subsequent posts, appears to be he was pissy because of your poor behaviour.  There may be other contributing factors, but your behaviour would appear to be the major one.

He was right in his analogy, well almost.  Let me put it another way, you go out, you get pissed, you come home and puke on the bed, he will clean it up, but he is going to be cross with you for your poor behaviour.

And on top of that, you argue that he is wrong... more reason to be pissy with you.

You tittle-tattle to his other partner... looking for support?  Ultimately this will cause pissyness!

I think what pushes my buttons the most is that he did care for you, he got you water, her cleared up the bed when you made a mess, he cuddled and talked to you, but you can't even acknowledge that.  I wonder did you say thank you?

No, you questioned if he would be there for you... you used the word ignorant when talking about him, the same could be used for yourself.

He may not have done these things in a manner in which you expected, but why should he, he is your boyfriend, not your lackey and he was cross with you!

OP, grow up and take some responsibility rather than concentrating on woe is me.







laurell3 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:33:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CeriseNin


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

We can come up with all the theories in the world, but the reality is that shit happens in relationships and no one is perfect. They are either going to find a way to communicate past this or not. I'm not sure either of them are horrible or wrong, they just have different expectations of each other right now. I hope they can work out a set of expectations that works for both of them.

This is true, but one would think a friend could get out of bed for a glass a water and give hugs. Maybe they aren't even that or maybe he was having a bad night. As you say, we don't their expectations. Best of luck to them.


I just don't see how the blame game is helpful to overall relationship success. I don't ever DEMAND an apology and find the posts here to that effect as funny. Fixing the issue that caused the disappointment and change in perspective to one of not being sure that she can trust him is so much more important than two words will ever be. Everyone here wants to brand either one or both of them as "wrong". It's really confusing to me on CM quite often how so many people can think that relationships are ever going to be perfect. They aren't. The measure of success is how you deal with it when the imperfections come to light. He is still the same guy that she knew the day before this happened. Hopefully together they will find a way to restore her vision and trust to see that.



juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:34:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

We can come up with all the theories in the world, but the reality is that shit happens in relationships and no one is perfect. They are either going to find a way to communicate past this or not. I'm not sure either of them are horrible or wrong, they just have different expectations of each other right now. I hope they can work out a set of expectations that works for both of them.


You are right, shit happens in relationships.... There are some things that can be worked out. There are other things that cannot. I have had the experience of feeling wounded by the inconsiderate words/actions of another, attempting to let it go because "we aren't perfect" and finding that in the end I couldn't. I honestly tried, went on with the relationship, but there was no resolution to the hurt that was inflicted. The reason? The other party didn't understand how they had wounded me, and I did not have the skills to show them. So I held that hurt inside in a little box and it would come out every time I was upset, a little seed of hurt, disappointment and resentment.

When that original wound was inflicted I felt what the OP talks about, like there had been this gulf created by it. This isn't a bump in the road to her. This is not a small mistake. I can see it in her posts that the reason for her doubting this relationship is not just his actions, but his responsiveness to her feelings after the fact. Perhaps, like me, she lacks the skill to show him how this hurt her....

My mom, wise lady that she is, has told me more than once "Be careful of what you say to your loved ones, because while people will forgive it when you hurt them, they will rarely forget it. Don't say and do things you can't take back.... or at least try as hard as you can not to"... my mom is right about that. People can destroy something they value in an instant over a very rash and stupid choice of words and actions.



laurell3 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:41:57 AM)

julia,

If you reread my posts in this thread, nowhere will you find any suggestion that she should just get over it or she shouldn't feel the way she does. Nor should he change how he feels. However, I don't think that focusing on blame is really constructive. It seems so common that someone wants the other to say they were right. I don't see how that solves the ongoing issue of having different expectations in an area that obviously is going to come up again. They need to find a way to resolve that issue. I hope that they do.

I agree with you 100 percent that being too accomdating and not voicing our concerns leads to resentment and sets the relationship up for failure. I agree that we should express our emotions in relationships. I do NOT agree that the two words "I'm sorry" will "fix" this situation and I find that viewpoint by the OP unrealistic. They have some work to do. It's never easy to deal with the hard part of relationships, which is what they need to do. I wish them the best.

and btw: short of something monumental like "I fucked your sister last night" or an ongoing pattern of being derrogatory to a partner, I do not agree with your mother, but that's just me and my perspective on being invested in my relationships and the fact that I don't believe one negative comment from him changes how I view MYSELF.



CeriseNin -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 9:50:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


quote:

ORIGINAL: CeriseNin


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

We can come up with all the theories in the world, but the reality is that shit happens in relationships and no one is perfect. They are either going to find a way to communicate past this or not. I'm not sure either of them are horrible or wrong, they just have different expectations of each other right now. I hope they can work out a set of expectations that works for both of them.

This is true, but one would think a friend could get out of bed for a glass a water and give hugs. Maybe they aren't even that or maybe he was having a bad night. As you say, we don't their expectations. Best of luck to them.


I just don't see how the blame game is helpful to overall relationship success. I don't ever DEMAND an apology and find the posts here to that effect as funny. Fixing the issue that caused the disappointment and change in perspective to one of not being sure that she can trust him is so much more important than two words will ever be. Everyone here wants to brand either one or both of them as "wrong". It's really confusing to me on CM quite often how so many people can think that relationships are ever going to be perfect. They aren't. The measure of success is how you deal with it when the imperfections come to light. He is still the same guy that she knew the day before this happened. Hopefully together they will find a way to restore her vision and trust to see that.

Yes I agree with you. The blame game only leads to resentment and recriminations and helps no one, and usually dooms a relationship to failure, in my experience. Hopefully they can work it out.



juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 11:07:07 AM)

quote:

If you reread my posts in this thread, nowhere will you find any suggestion that she should just get over it or she shouldn't feel the way she does. Nor should he change how he feels. However, I don't think that focusing on blame is really constructive. It seems so common that someone wants the other to say they were right. I don't see how that solves the ongoing issue of having different expectations in an area that obviously is going to come up again. They need to find a way to resolve that issue. I hope that they do.


I am not a blame game sort of person, at the same time, actions have consequences...Most of her posts focus on how she feels, and why she feels this way, and what his actions say about their relationship and how sustainable it is... I do not see this as a blame thing, but as a "you don't meet my needs" thing.


quote:

I do NOT agree that the two words "I'm sorry" will "fix" this situation and I find that viewpoint by the OP unrealistic. They have some work to do. It's never easy to deal with the hard part of relationships, which is what they need to do. I wish them the best.

"I'm sorry" is the beginning of the process of fixing it, not the end, how can people fix a problem that one person is unwilling to acknowledge exists?

quote:

and btw: short of something monumental like "I fucked your sister last night" or an ongoing pattern of being derrogatory to a partner, I do not agree with your mother, but that's just me and my perspective on being invested in my relationships and the fact that I don't believe one negative comment from him changes how I view MYSELF.


My experience tells me that if you cut someone to the quick in the heat of anger, they don't forget it, they may forgive it... you can move on from it, but most people I know don't forget.



laurell3 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 11:10:06 AM)

We're essentially saying the same thing. I don't disagree with your points and in fact have made some of them in other posts.

Forgiving is the key, of course having a memory is not going to cause resentment, the lack of forgiveness and acceptance is.



juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 11:12:57 AM)

I think my mother's point was valid in this way, when someone makes a hurtful comment, when something similar happens again, then it brings back the original sting. If this happens enough it becomes the "pattern" you speak of. I think her point is simply this, best to not start a pattern at all.



laurell3 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 11:14:52 AM)

I agree, but sometimes people say and do stupid things because we're human. If we cannot forgive them for being human and them us, then our expectations of a unrealistic relationship are really going to cause us misery aren't they?



juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 11:26:03 AM)

We all bring our own experience to our view points on other people's problems....

If the opening post finds a way to work out her problem with her boyfriend, great! Perhaps she is not seeing things from his perspective, etc. Maybe there are things we do not know that would change my mind if I knew them. I would never tell someone that they absolutely should dump someone based upon what they write on this forum... however....

I would say that if I was in the purported position that the OP was, and I wasn't cared for I would at the very least not let this person top me again. I wouldn't trust them. How can you allow someone to top you that you can't trust to care about your welfare? It is a pretty simple matter in my mind if she is being forthright in her description. She is either being so, or she isn't, and if she isn't she will either work it out or she won't. Feeling numb, sad, upset over the lack of compassion that someone you have allowed to top you when they show a disregard for your welfare is not in my mind an unusual thing. This is why I am careful about who tops me and puts me into subspace. I have decided to explore this new dynamic with someone I am seeing, and he knows I do not want to be put into subspace unless we are together overnight...there is a reason for this, I know how I am and I may need aftercare more the next day than I do right after play. It is the way I am wired. These two have real communication issues, and perhaps if they had communicated better they would not have even gotten involved. Now that the cat is out of the bag on how much she can expect from him, she is free to decide whether or not this is acceptable. Ideally this would have happened before this situation occurred, but unfortunately it didn't.

My chagrin with this thread is the many people who top subs and they think it is acceptable to leave them without checking on their welfare because "they had it coming for playing outside the relationship".... geesh, would these people drive by an accident scene without responding to it because one of the drivers may have been speeding? It shows a general callousness towards other people, and specifically to those that they top, that they would react that way. I am glad that I am careful about who I involve myself with.... if I maybe injured and I am unwell and that person does not give a fuck, I don't want them. If this guy was just clueless, well that isn't as bad, but he needs to be educated if nothing else... it does not sound like he cares to be



KariCloud -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 11:48:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have decided to explore this new dynamic with someone I am seeing, and he knows I do not want to be put into subspace unless we are together overnight...there is a reason for this, I know how I am and I may need aftercare more the next day than I do right after play. It is the way I am wired.


I am assuming from the above quote that this is something you and your new partner have discussed, yes? If she had such a discussion with her boyfriend about how she would always want aftercare from him regardless of who it was that played with her, then the situation would have been entirely different. From her own statements, she assumed this of him without actually asking. So yes, I do see her as being the one responsible for the mistake. Sure, he probably made some assumptions of his own, but he isn't here to speak and so there is no way for anyone here to know his perspective on it.








juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 11:58:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KariCloud


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have decided to explore this new dynamic with someone I am seeing, and he knows I do not want to be put into subspace unless we are together overnight...there is a reason for this, I know how I am and I may need aftercare more the next day than I do right after play. It is the way I am wired.


I am assuming from the above quote that this is something you and your new partner have discussed, yes? If she had such a discussion with her boyfriend about how she would always want aftercare from him regardless of who it was that played with her, then the situation would have been entirely different. From her own statements, she assumed this of him without actually asking. So yes, I do see her as being the one responsible for the mistake. Sure, he probably made some assumptions of his own, but he isn't here to speak and so there is no way for anyone here to know his perspective on it.








Any experienced top that couldn't be bothered to get up off their ass and get someone in subspace a glass of water, and check on their status is a lousy top. You are right, she should have found out that he couldn't be bothered with her no matter her state before she was in this position. Now she knows and she can dump his ass for someone that is more experienced and compassionate. Of course there maybe things I don't know, mitigating circumstances, etc, but if it is the way she described it, he wouldn't ever top me.

I agree on some level that there are no victims in this world, and we are all responsible for what happens to us, but that does not erase the fact that someone who does not give a fuck how their girlfriend is when they are disoriented is a douche bag...



CreativeDominant -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 12:22:06 PM)

This is a complex situation.  Various statements about their relationship, their level of play, their responsibilities and obligations to each other help to give some insight but...as someone else noted...without the op's boyfriend's perspective, it is all as she alone states.

That said...I would give aftercare to a friend, so I would damn sure give it to a partner whether it was me she had played with or not.  I will take note here that it sounds as if miscommunication and clashing expectations ran into each other. 

Someone earlier noted that aftercare should have been negotiated as part of play.  I agree.  If the op has been at this for any length of time, she surely knows about negotiation. 
I've been accused of being anal because I want to negotiate and discuss all aspects of play, even with experienced submissives/bottoms...I've been told I should just let things "flow" sometimes.  With MY partner, I am more willing to "go with the flow" but I have to say I've seen more go wrong when I've just "let it flow", especially with casual partners---even if I've played with them before, than I've seen when all the things that can go right/wrong and what to do about it are understood by all the parties involved in play.

The op was surprised by subspace?  Really?  I get the feeling that the op is a regular reader of these forums and therefore, surely must have run across one or two threads dealing with subspace and all the various levels and effects that have happened to other posters here.  Just because she was playing with a friend rather than someone she was intimate with did not preclude the possibility of subspace occurring.  I'm pretty sure there are posters on here who will tell you that they can go into subspace with an experienced sadist, whether that person is their partner or not just as there are those who don't go into subspace without their partners but who, since they know how easily it can happen for them, don't DO casual play for just that reason...just as there are those who are able to play with casual partners and, for whatever reason and through their own means, do not enter subspace.  I can understand that when you have entered subspace you may want YOUR partner for the aftercare but sometimes...as it was this evening...that isn't possible and arrangements should be made as to what to do.  If she has come to the realization that she is always going to want HER partner for aftercare, then they need to discuss it.  Those who are hitting on him for not wanting to clean up someone else's mess?  It all sounds fine and noble to talk his obligation and responsibility to do so because of it being the right thing to do but let's be honest...expecting that kind of immediate, 100% giving, pure, selfless behavior from from someone who wasn't in on the fun...who's been woke up...who may have been involved in his own pursuit of pleasure that evening and did not expect anything from her... who's been confronted with a person in a state that they've never seen...is a bit much.  It is not that he did not give her anything yet the posts come across that way.  His behavior the next day...petulant and immature to an extent but again, we are seeing things only from her perspective.

Someone else also stated....expectation of behavior in a manner similar to your own is resentment waiting to happen...hit it right.  Even with compatible people, each brings their own perspective to a situation.  While I might act in one way in a given situation, my partner might act completely different.  Expecting them to act the same way I would when confronted with a NEW, DIFFICULT situation and then being disappointed when they do not perform up to my standards is unfair...and trust me when I say that I've learned that the hard way.  Do you have the right to expect them to act much like you would in most situations?  Yes, otherwise you would not be compatible.  Do you have the right to expect them to react the same as you would in any situation?  No, you do not.  Now...how they do react continues to give you a gauge as to compatibility and their own moral and ethical make-up. 

He behaved irresponsibly...in my opinion.  But so did she...



NorthernGent -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 1:33:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: newprofile2010

Here is my question - Right now I feel like ending the relationship. I feel that so many levels of trust have been violated I will never feel anything for him again. I don't even count him as a friend, because any of my friends would have taken care of me in that situation. He knew where I was going, agreed to my going, and as my lover and supposed friend has a responsibility to deal with things that may arise even if they are inconvenient and make him feel things he would rather not feel. I could easily never speak to him again, and that thought is really "out there" for me. We say "I love you", we've met each other's family, have intertwined lives and a huge group of shared friends... but none of that matters to me at the moment. And that's really weird.

However, I am not making this decision now (even though it would be easy as I feel no attachment at all, no anger, nothing but numbness). I realize that he has issues with other people being more experienced in bdsm activities (he had a 4 year relationship that ended recently (they remain friends) and HER new partner is good with rope, other toys, etc). I realize that this may have also hit on issues of his alcoholic father coming home at 2am every morning and waking everyone in the house up and demanding to be dealt with. Go through that for over a decade and you might have some baggage.

I would like to toss this to the CM boards and get feedback. I've never felt like this before, and the combination of lovely blankness with crushing ennui is not a place to make decisions from, I know. Hopefully I'll get some good (or funny, funny would be good right now) advice over the next few days.

Thanks.


No. He doesn't have any 'responsibility to deal with things'. You wanted to go - your choice. You wanted to enjoy yourself - your choice. So why on earth do you think he has an obligation to 'cuddle you' or get you a drink of water?

I think you got off lightly....because I wouldn't have given you a drink of water...I'd have fuckin' drowned you on the basis of your ill-conceived expectations.

Nothing worse than a horrible spoilt bitch who wants the freedom to trapse round the place and then expects comfort and security when it suits.



angelikaJ -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 3:01:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


No. He doesn't have any 'responsibility to deal with things'. You wanted to go - your choice. You wanted to enjoy yourself - your choice. So why on earth do you think he has an obligation to 'cuddle you' or get you a drink of water?

I think you got off lightly....because I wouldn't have given you a drink of water...I'd have fuckin' drowned you on the basis of your ill-conceived expectations.

Nothing worse than a horrible spoilt bitch who wants the freedom to trapse round the place and then expects comfort and security when it suits.



Did you happen to miss the part about the reason why he did not want to go with her:
He wanted to spend alone time with his other lover?

edit: clarity



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