RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (Full Version)

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WyldHrt -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 7:48:46 PM)

quote:

He was taking care of himself, and you barged in unexpectedly and demanded that he tend to you

She "barged in".... to the hotel room they were both staying in..... "unexpectedly"..... at the time she said would be back?
[8|]

I have to wonder if some people's responses would be different had the OP gone out with vanilla friends while her b/f spent intimate time with another partner and came down with food poisoning. Would it still be ok for him to blow her off while she was puke-up sick because..... you know, she did it to herself? [:-]



LadynCharge -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 8:07:32 PM)

After reading the entire thread I need an Excedrin. Seems to me that the mis-communication fault are to be laid at both your feet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: newprofile2010
From what he stated the day after he does not WANT a relationship where we would be mutually responsible for each other. I do.


If that statement of what he said to you is true and accurate then I agree with Elisabella, your answer is right in front of your face. It's call incompatibility.



LadyPact -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 8:47:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
She "barged in".... to the hotel room they were both staying in..... "unexpectedly"..... at the time she said would be back?
[8|]

I have to wonder if some people's responses would be different had the OP gone out with vanilla friends while her b/f spent intimate time with another partner and come down with food poisoning. Would it still be ok for him to blow her off while she was puke-up sick because..... you know, she did it to herself? [:-]


If the restaurant had just re-opened after being shut down for a month and had a reputation for people getting sick from there, yeah, I might.  At least for the first few minutes until I had a cigarette and some caffeine in Me.  LOL.

Somebody mentioned earlier about how friends hold your hair when you puke.  Shoot, I'm the type that would have My face right in the bowl alongside if it came to that.  When not fully awake, it's not going to be My first reaction.  Call Me for a ride when you've had too much to drink, you might want to expect a few extra minutes for wake up time, because after I say 'who in the hell is calling at this hour', I still need to be able to navigate the road.

To Me, there's a lot of difference between stuff like breaking your ankle while you went out jogging or had a car accident (still have to let Me wake up if it's the middle of the night) I see in a much different way than this.  Accidents, mistakes, and emergencies happen.  I'll even go for the 'had to much to drink' thing where a person can't drive.  Yeah, you're probably getting a lecture the next day because you're grown and you know what happens when you drink too much tequila.

Now, how fair would it be to expect Me to know how to deal with someone who was too drunk to speak, seemed to have no motor skills, and needed things that I had no clue about to this extreme if I had never dealt with someone that intoxicated before?  Maybe I'd only dealt with people that were a little tipsy and I might have read something a while back about blood alcohol levels hitting the poisoning level a while back.  I may not be at My best to really know what is going on.  I might screw that up or I might not even understand that I screwed up.

From what I'm getting, this was pretty heavy post scene reaction.  I think it was new to both of them.  He could have done better if he had known a little more and (sorry OP) she's probably a bit over sensitive after going that deep when she isn't used to it. 

There were mistakes made, but I don't think they are unforgivable mistakes.  Sometimes, fuck ups can actually bring people closer together.



newprofile2010 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 9:59:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


There were mistakes made, but I don't think they are unforgivable mistakes.  Sometimes, fuck ups can actually bring people closer together.
[/color]



I hope that's the case here. Like I said in the original post, I'm not really all that upset about the actual evening. He didn't break out the rubber hose or make me sleep on the floor.

quote:

This is not the part I'm upset about.


The next afternoon we talk about the incident. HERE is what I am upset about.

In the jumbled and terribly long discussion, he revealed a few things I wasn't aware of the night before. MY impression had been that he was shockingly ignorant, but as we don't play very hard, none of his past partners have played very hard, and I've never had that intense of a reaction before. I figured that he simply needed to be told what it was and how to deal with it next time. He was woken up unexpectedly and didn't understand, that was my impression.

No.



It's the discussion the next day that made me question whether we're looking for the same style of relationship. We'll figure that out when we talk, probably tomorrow.






Zevar -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/11/2010 10:42:27 PM)

A Long final entry to a Long Original post:

As many people know everyone has their own method of solving personal issues. Not that every approach is a workable method. Some are while some are not. Nonetheless when an honest effort is set forth to sincerely solve a presenting issue with the one that the issue is with this all one can do. However when the one that the issue is with is excluded from the conversation therein arises even further issues than originally were.

In ascertaining the reason behind why someone would talk with strangers or unfamiliar persons, as in somebody whom somebody else does not know, about personal issues is all too like adolescent behavior. Adolescent insecure behavior belongs in High School among peers that are emotionally immature and feel inadequate to confront issues. Usually their unspoken reasons are due to wanting to either manipulate or control the outcome in order to get the answer they want AND attempt to control what they have no control over! I understand the reasons why this is condoned by adolescents. However considering adults choosing to behave in such a manner is highly questionable at best.

This man that is spoken of in just about every entry has had NO opportunity to give his side of the situation. I find this approach to not only be unfair yet indicative of someone who is seeking to gain the answer(s) that they want in order to attempt to change the original answer they may have originally received. In other situations when this sort of behavior is chosen it tends to be for reasons to manipulate a pseudo sense of control when the other person refuses to relinquish their position on a particular issue.

The Op talks about equality and mutuality when related to herself yet is here without the man she is profusely complaining about AND presents to deeply care about this man. How can she deeply care about this man when he has been excluded from her one sided opinionated perspective?

The Op has not proven one iota of credibility, characteristically speaking. She has protested valuable insight into her seemingly complicated issue(s) when it is information that she does not care to hear it. She only appears to be minimally receptive to information that coddles her side of the story AND even then she still tends to protest to a degree.

Does this say anything about her character? Of course it does! Does it say anything about her modus operandi in exposing personal information without this man she claims to care deeply about being willfully excluded from this discussion? Yes!

Point in fact, TRUST in any relationship is essential! When someone, either partner, goes out of the relationship in a clandestine manner to unknown persons, not to a licensed professional for advise, there are only mere opinions at the forefront, period! There is no way to clinically evaluate a situation in a setting such as this. Nor should there be. I am not implying that I am professionally assessing this situation at all. What I am doing is talking common sense.

As people, we all want to and need to trust those we relate with on a personal level and moreover an intimate level. When trust is violated the bond severs. The risk in seeking so called help from unknown persons outside of a personal relationship, aside from professional advise, increases the present inability to be objectively decisive. Meddling in the personal lives of people serves to increases a bias that present further issues regarding arriving at a decision that includes the lives of 2 people and not merely 1person.

If this entire thread is allowed to be read by the man that the Op has complained about then and only then would I alter my viewpoint. Until that occurs all one has is a emotionally rejected woman who has unilaterally decided to take a personal situation into her hands AND present her selfish sided view to total strangers with the so called goal of gaining help when in fact that is not what could ever occur with this thread. Why? An important person, namely this man she claims to care deeply for, has been totally excluded from a personal conversation that is ALL about his seeming errors according to the Op.

The personal business of this man, that the Op claims to care deeply for, does not require some online virtually reality stranger(s) to intrude into his life prior to him arriving at a decision that he deems worthy. I for one would not allow a woman who conducted herself as the Op has to remain in my Household or Life. My decision would be to forbid any further contact. Luggage, her belongings AND if she is without funds indeed a sizable check to help her make a new start and of course a safe mode of transportation to get her as far from my Household as possible would be swiftly in the making. Farewell would be my final decision. Period, no further discussion or contact from this day forth and forevermore!

Betraying the trust of someone you claim to care deeply for by not allowing his point of view to be presented by himself is detrimental to forming any bond. If the Op finally gets her glass of water or whatever her complaining was about clearly the issue presented is but the top of the iceberg. Relationships are about a whole lot more than sexual agreements.

Finally my input to the Op would be: Don’t forget to link this man you claim to care for deeply to this thread so he can have an equitable discussion with you. That is if you truly do care deeply for him you will. Leaving him in the dark will only find its way back to the Op eventually, indeed. Feel free to test that if you disagree. What goes around comes around!

Take care!



Cherylmazana -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 12:25:41 AM)

Sometimes people need anonymous help from strangers, that’s why agony aunts were invented, I don’t remember any agony aunt saying that because anonymous didn’t put down their real name that they considered them wrong for doing so.

Not giving your name gives you the chance to ask for advice without prior knowledge of your past getting in the way. It gives you the chance to look at advice and see if you want to follow it or not without the obligation of having friends say later, well serves you right for ignoring what I said, or I told you so. Sometimes we want to hide just how hurt we are and put on that “alls fine” facade while we consider the options, because when we calm down all may be well and we would feel totally stupid for creating such a scene when it blew away once we started thinking.

Cheryl



Elisabella -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 12:44:00 AM)

Exactly Cheryl, and also it's a way to discuss a relationship issue without embarrassing your partner by talking about him in front of the whole world.



Zevar -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 3:44:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

Sometimes people need anonymous help from strangers, that’s why agony aunts were invented, I don’t remember any agony aunt saying that because anonymous didn’t put down their real name that they considered them wrong for doing so.

Not giving your name gives you the chance to ask for advice without prior knowledge of your past getting in the way. It gives you the chance to look at advice and see if you want to follow it or not without the obligation of having friends say later, well serves you right for ignoring what I said, or I told you so. Sometimes we want to hide just how hurt we are and put on that “alls fine” facade while we consider the options, because when we calm down all may be well and we would feel totally stupid for creating such a scene when it blew away once we started thinking.

Cheryl


Greetings Cheryl:

I clearly understand what you are saying. I simply disagree with the concept of discussing private personal issues in public and worse excluding the one who is claimed to be cared for deeply. I seriously doubt that I will ever condone such practices regardless of how others perceive it. To each their own!

Be most well!



angelikaJ -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 5:18:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

He was taking care of himself, and you barged in unexpectedly and demanded that he tend to you

She "barged in".... to the hotel room they were both staying in..... "unexpectedly"..... at the time she said would be back?
[8|]

I have to wonder if some people's responses would be different had the OP gone out with vanilla friends while her b/f spent intimate time with another partner and came down with food poisoning. Would it still be ok for him to blow her off while she was puke-up sick because..... you know, she did it to herself? [:-]


I had read an entirely different post and the very same thought popped into my head.

Great minds... [:D]



couldbemage -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 6:27:07 AM)

It seems like most without tolerance for whining didn't read past the first page.

This situation is exactly like coming home drunk...

In either situation, some people will baby you, others will just make sure you aren't going to die. In a group of men, one might expect to wake up with dicks drawn on their face.

There is a huge difference between going to a play party together and getting a few minutes of snuggles, and waking your partner after going out with friends. Even worse that you were so very out of it.

You were not about to die.

You didn't need anything.

You wanted it.

I'd expect an apology from my sub, if she did what you did.

...And you are keeping secrets. You could get are advice while still informing your partner that you are seeking advice.



CeriseNin -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 6:45:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: newprofile2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

OP, I think you're overreacting. You say you don't have a power arrangement, and if that is the case it is NOT your partner's "responsibility" to take care of you. It is your responsibility to take care of yourself.

I understand that you're hurt that he was annoyed with you instead of helping. He's probably hurt that you came in during the middle of the night and woke him up and expected his attention. What you did IMO was rude. You made a list of the "differences" between this time and last time - last time, did you come in and wake him up and expect care, or was he awake and with you from the start? That's a huge difference IMO and I agree with his analogy, you went out, partied it up, stumbled home and woke him up, then you got MAD that he wasn't all "ohhh poor honey let me help you" and are completely inconsiderate of the fact that he's not happy with you about it either.



He knew when I left it was midnight, and he knew when I planned to be back it would be late. He gave consent for me to go, and knew he would have to get up to let me back in.

Again, I did not go out and have ten tequilas and expect him to stay up with me for three hours, I went and played as agreed and came back when agreed. I had a different and unexpected reaction. If I had fallen and sprained my ankle I would have expected him to be supportive as well.

I -did- drop the ball in depending on him to be nice to me. Now that he's stated he finds the idea repugnant I'll take care to not rely on him. I'm not mad, hurt a little but honestly not mad, about the fumbled evening. I'm mulling over the things he said the next day, things about his desire for responsibility and even closeness. From what he stated the day after he does not WANT a relationship where we would be mutually responsible for each other. I do.

That pretty much tells you where the relationship is going - - or not.



DesFIP -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 7:01:38 AM)

There is no right or wrong here, just a question of what people need in a partner. She's been with this man a short amount of time, comparatively speaking, and although he had professed that he would always be there for her, once a situation occurred where she wanted him to be there, he discovered he isn't willing to be.

If the op is fine being with someone who she knows she can't expect to be there for her no matter what, and will be fine asking others for care when needed, then the relationship should be able to continue.

If however she expects people to live up to their words and his saying things he doesn't mean is a sticking point for her, then she isn't compatible with him. I think the fact that he has other partners is entering into it. He is not that heavily invested in this relationship as part of him is invested in the other relationship. I don't think he would be there for the other woman either. Due to his difficult childhood, he may well prefer not to be heavily invested in any relationship. People who come out of those early abuse situations often become hypercritical as a survival technique. It works at the time but sabotages later relationships. Any unplanned emergency will be viewed as equivalent to his father getting drunk and him blaming his partner for her actions. She should have known to check the oil before driving and if she had she wouldn't have broken down, etc.

My suggestion for the op is that if she wants to salvage this relationship, she needs to insist he gets some help with his leftover baggage. Personally I would be there for my partner no matter what, even if it took me a while to wake up (which it would). I would complain about being woken up at the time but apologized for that the next day. I require a partner who will be there for me no matter what, because I'm not interested in not being there for him fully and I won't do this unreciprocated.

The op has to decide what she needs in a relationship. She also has to accept that the truth about what her partner really is willing to do for her in times of trouble and decide if that's acceptable to her or not. There is no blame attached if he decides he doesn't want a partner who expects him to be there no matter what. Equally no blame attached to her for deciding that she does require that. Better they find out now then waste more time.





LadyPact -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 7:33:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: newprofile2010
I hope that's the case here. Like I said in the original post, I'm not really all that upset about the actual evening. He didn't break out the rubber hose or make me sleep on the floor.

quote:

This is not the part I'm upset about.


The next afternoon we talk about the incident. HERE is what I am upset about.

In the jumbled and terribly long discussion, he revealed a few things I wasn't aware of the night before. MY impression had been that he was shockingly ignorant, but as we don't play very hard, none of his past partners have played very hard, and I've never had that intense of a reaction before. I figured that he simply needed to be told what it was and how to deal with it next time. He was woken up unexpectedly and didn't understand, that was my impression.

No.



It's the discussion the next day that made me question whether we're looking for the same style of relationship. We'll figure that out when we talk, probably tomorrow.

You keep repeating this as though I don't understand it.  I do.  Where we differ is that I'm still looking at it from his perception.  That perception is what formed his opinions.  If he was half asleep during the time that caused the problem, him not being all there effects the way he sees it.  This is what I tried to explain to you earlier in the thread.  If I'm half asleep, My brain isn't processing things the same way.  My memory of the events and the way I interpret them is formed on the way I was thinking then.  Literally, I've had conversations when woken up from a sound sleep that I don't remember at all the next day.

When you think about it, your perception of the events that you're basing all of this on probably isn't crystal clear either.  If I'm in post scene deep space, one thing I'll lose is the concept of time.  I think it's been twenty minutes and it's really been two hours.  I also tend to say things that I won't remember or think I've said things that were really just going on in My brain.  Asking Me about it the next day when (maybe) My head is clear doesn't allow Me to magically fix the way I remember it.

There's an old saying that goes 'an expectation of someone else is a resentment waiting to happen'.  You based your expectation of his reaction on what happened before, which would be fine if it was the same situation.  It wasn't.  You had at least three different elements.  Location, because he wasn't in the same place.  (Same hotel, but different area.)  State of consciousness, because the man was asleep when you returned.  (I would have gone to sleep at that time of night, too.)  Severity, because this was a deeper space than you usually experience. 

In that situation, there have been a few of us tell you that, no, we wouldn't have expected to provide your aftercare.  Had the person you played with refused to do so and you were a mess, it might sway My thoughts on the matter, but you've mentioned frequently how adamant you are about how the people you played with would have taken care of you.  It really is reasonable that your boyfriend would have thought that was the way it was going to happen.  The reason it didn't was your preference, which you didn't tell him was the way you felt about it until the next day. 

I just can't see the man taking all of the blame in this situation.



DefiantFlower -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 7:38:35 AM)

So, I'm finding myself disagreeing with the majority here. At least in regards to one aspect of your issue. I actually think it is partly his responsibility AS YOUR DOMINANT to care for you when you need it. He need not be happy about it. It would have been perfectly understandable if he had reamed you out the next morning and discussed what would be better should you find yourself in such a position again.

Water, a little snack, and warmth are pretty frickin common when it comes to aftercare. It's just common sense really, especially when you're asking for them specifically. it doesn't seem like he has a nurturing side, which is something I value in a dominant. Regardless of vanishing play partners and what you did during play, he should have, even if somewhat begrudgingly, helped bring you down in a safe, calm manner for no other reason than because he cares. It would have helped for him to be mature and wait till morning to address his obvious concerns.

There's something else going on here. Best advice is to sit and have a nice chill but open conversation with him. Discuss what he expected and was thinking when all this was going on. Just everything. Everyone's advice on this topic is superb. Hope this helps!



laurell3 -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 7:49:27 AM)

That might make sense, he's not her dominant and doesn't have any desire to be according to this statement:

quote:

One, I've never used the word Master. This is my boyfriend and he occasionally tops me. He refuses to sit down and discuss any type of D/s relationship expectations, other than to say no one can agree on what it is and it doesn't make sense. He's a friend and a romantic partner that I have bdsm encounters with, we have no power structure in our relationship.


Shrugs, it seems expectations aren't equal in this relationship.



CeriseNin -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 7:54:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DefiantFlower

So, I'm finding myself disagreeing with the majority here. At least in regards to one aspect of your issue. I actually think it is partly his responsibility AS YOUR DOMINANT to care for you when you need it. He need not be happy about it. It would have been perfectly understandable if he had reamed you out the next morning and discussed what would be better should you find yourself in such a position again.

Water, a little snack, and warmth are pretty frickin common when it comes to aftercare. It's just common sense really, especially when you're asking for them specifically. it doesn't seem like he has a nurturing side, which is something I value in a dominant. Regardless of vanishing play partners and what you did during play, he should have, even if somewhat begrudgingly, helped bring you down in a safe, calm manner for no other reason than because he cares. It would have helped for him to be mature and wait till morning to address his obvious concerns.

There's something else going on here. Best advice is to sit and have a nice chill but open conversation with him. Discuss what he expected and was thinking when all this was going on. Just everything. Everyone's advice on this topic is superb. Hope this helps!

He's not her dom.



angelikaJ -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 8:16:20 AM)

FR

After reading all the negative replies towards her following the thought that she should apologize to him:

She asked him for permission to play and the reason why he did not want to go play with her was because he wished to have alone time with another partner.

She asked if there were any restrictions on the play and he said no.

She asked how long did he need and he told her.

She came back at the appointed time.

Yup, that is all pretty damn inconsiderate.

This is not comparable to coming home drunk and this is why: one has control over how much one drinks.
A reaction like this is not calculable.


There was no agreement that she should not come home IF... .

He could have gone down to the play party afterwards and told her he was going to bed and didn't want to be disturbed, but he did not do that. He could have left a note on the door but did not do that either.

There was communication failure (on multiple levels) and on that, he is just as responsible as she.







DesFIP -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 8:23:46 AM)

The other thing is that he has these huge unaddressed issues due to his childhood. He hasn't dealt with them. In fact until this happened he didn't even share the baggage with her. He promised things knowing that due to his childhood he couldn't keep his word.

In effect, he lied by omission. As long as there were no problems, he seemed to be a good enough partner. Had he shared his issues with her in the beginning, and said he would not do any work to resolve them, she would have known not to come back and ask for help. But had he been honest in the beginning, she wouldn't have gotten involved with him. When you add this to the extra helping of insecurity caused by his long term ex leaving him for someone who was a much better top, it is just compounded.

But all of this would have been avoided if he had been honest in the beginning. He wasn't.



angelikaJ -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 8:32:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The other thing is that he has these huge unaddressed issues due to his childhood. He hasn't dealt with them. In fact until this happened he didn't even share the baggage with her. He promised things knowing that due to his childhood he couldn't keep his word.

In effect, he lied by omission. As long as there were no problems, he seemed to be a good enough partner. Had he shared his issues with her in the beginning, and said he would not do any work to resolve them, she would have known not to come back and ask for help. But had he been honest in the beginning, she wouldn't have gotten involved with him. When you add this to the extra helping of insecurity caused by his long term ex leaving him for someone who was a much better top, it is just compounded.

But all of this would have been avoided if he had been honest in the beginning. He wasn't.



Des,

I missed some of this thread.

I do know from personal experience, that sometimes regarding family things, we don't know that it is an issue until something triggers us. So, his promise to her may not have been a lie. He may not have known.
(The childhood stuff I saw.)



juliaoceania -> RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post (8/12/2010 8:44:55 AM)

quote:

You were not about to die.

You didn't need anything.


Said like someone who never experienced subspace... I worry for the women you top. Guess what? A sub can have broken bones and not know it because of their mental state. I would not want to play with a man that did not understand that damage is not always obvious, nor is the sub able to communicate it. Out of human decency it would seem one human being would want to make sure another human being wasn't having internal bleeding or broken bones before dismissing their plight.

What we do is not safe. There has been more than one person accidentally injured severely by play.... now the top she was playing with was not overly familiar with her, and her partner perhaps might have taken his head out of his ass long enough to give a shit if she needed medical attention...




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