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Strong subs.. - 4/19/2006 10:38:12 PM   
crazypatient


Posts: 31
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		how to masters feel about strong subs?  I find men that think that all women should be totally submissive... but most turely strong men require their women to be strong enouph to be a challenge to dominate...  any man can dominate a weak woman, it really takes a man to dominate a strong woman... any thoughts?
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/19/2006 11:11:33 PM   
MasterMoody


Posts: 133
Joined: 4/19/2006
Status: offline 		i don't know about all master but i like me subs to be stroug women not only to make it more challenge to dominate and to be able to handle what ever i but the thouh

(in reply to crazypatient)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Strong subs.. - 4/19/2006 11:27:41 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what you are talking about. There is nothing wrong with strong independent women, in fact that is my preference. However, if you are talking about strong women that like to assume the role of submissive in a sexual situation, I think they are just that, strong women that play a submissive sexual role to play out their fantasies. That's a fair enough position to take but it is what it is. I do believe in that situation they are seeking a so called 'dom' to service them, which is a role play situation and not really a true D/s relationship but an ersatz experience.

You are what you are and if you are a dominant woman you aren't going to easily allow a man or domme for that matter to dominate you. Yes, most men can dominate a woman simply because of physical power but that is illegal. For a woman with a strong character to allow herself to be dominated then let's be honest about what it is, she is allowing herself to be dominated and as I have said, she is playing out a role.

No doubt, certain characters dominate certain characters so it is possible for a dominant woman to find someone to dominate her but she needs to find the right dom with the right character to do it. Still, she is wanting to be dominated and isn't actually being dominated but then women with more submissive characters are doing the same. BDSM, SSC and all that, it means it's an esatz situation whether the woman feels naturally dominated or not. Anything else would be abuse.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/19/2006 11:29:08 PM >

(in reply to MasterMoody)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/19/2006 11:34:32 PM   
IndigoDadesi


Posts: 185
Status: offline 		I like my men stronger than myself and my women more passive than myself. They can be strong in other ways, but I prefer passive women. And there's nothing worse than a weak man...except maybe syphilis...and, um, people who talk during movies.


Yea so Im not a Master, but this is posted in General discussion, not ask a master.


< Message edited by IndigoDadesi -- 4/19/2006 11:38:11 PM >

(in reply to crazypatient)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/19/2006 11:41:04 PM   
domme4ladies


Posts: 1
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		I stay to the notion is it takes all kinds to please, as we are all unique.

(in reply to IndigoDadesi)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 1:10:52 AM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		i think there is a difference between being a dominant woman (not necessarily a domme, but a woman whose nature is not to submit) and being a strong woman. one can be both a submissive woman and a strong woman, or a dominant woman and a strong woman, but usually one is not both a submissive woman and a dominant woman by nature. my nature is to be a submissive woman, and i was raised to be a strong woman, though i don't consider myself particularly predisposed to that (i'm more of a doormat by nature, but i'm working on that). to me being a strong woman means that i stand up for myself and i don't allow people to use me or walk all over me (though this is rather a work in progress). i am financially capable of caring for myself and emotionally i may not be on top of everything but i am at least handling things with some measure of grace. i have my own goals for myself and, in general, i live for myself - i do not try to please anyone (other than my Dominant, and power over me is something i've given to Him because that's the kind of life i want to have). this independence is what i feel makes me a strong woman, and i don't think it's at all at odds with my submissiveness. i think this kind of strength can add value to one's submissiveness, in fact.

_____________________________

i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to domme4ladies)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 1:30:09 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I think it depends upon the dom...and, of course, upon the sub.  I've found that most doms (at least, the ones I know) say they don't want a doormat, but if I question them, the answer is too often "because that's what I wish".  I understand that that may be the ttue answer some of the time, but I am troubled by the frequency.  I've found that many doms don't want a strong woman or a particularly intelligent one.  Perhaps, I've simply run into the wrong doms..I don't want to judge them all based on a few bad apples.

(in reply to fullofgrace)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 2:51:57 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		I look for a person rather than a doormat and yes, it is what I wish.... why? Because frankly doormats are boring, I'm sure it won't be long before someone invents a rubber doll that can make coffee then doormats will be obsolete

If she is going to submit to me then there needs to be something worth having, not just an empty shell. Someone with opinions, thoughts, ideas of her own, for one thing I enjoy discussion and with a doormat all you realy have is a monolog punctuated by "Yes Master" "whatever you say Master" "three bags full Master"

Any fool can take a doormat and the next fool along with probably have her rolling over and obaying him rather than following your directions unless you are actualy there because they "Don't know how to say no". Frankly you can't trust a doormat, a strong girl however has chosen to submit to you, and anyone else trying to cross the lines you set her is likely to draw their hand back as a bloody stump if they find it hard to understand the word no and it is a word she is quite comfortable in using!

Further, any relationship, yes even a D/s one, takes effort from BOTH sides. Doormats don't put in real effort they simply react to your effort. They can never be realy pleasing because there isn't a person there that will learn who you are except on the most superficial of levels, she will never understand all those little things, subtle things that make a girl worth collaring. There is no-one there for you to learn and for me that is part of my pleasure, exploring her mind as well as her body (takes a lot longer and is even more fun!), difficult to do when there isn't much of a mind there to explore.

And I probably could go on, there is so much worth having in a strong girl.... but I've only had one coffee so far and brain has gone on strike till more caffine is forthcomming. Now where is a strong girl who makes a good cup of coffee when you need one!


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to bandit25)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 3:21:48 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		i think it depends on the Dom and of course how strong the sub is.

i'm amazingly strong willed.  To the point where patience isnt a virtual anymore.  i'll wait 3 years to do something if i have too.  i've found very few ppl can actually Dominate me.  Generally they become submissive.  Doesnt matter how "stronge" you are, but whether He is stronger then you. 

LOL  Himself is the first person i havent walked all over in years and made em like it.  He is quite literally the first person in over 12 years that could actually say no to me.  AND make it stick.  It suprises anyone thats ever known me over the years.  Especially the family!  They're like "you actually listen to some one?"

(in reply to bandit25)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 3:48:44 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		What do you mean by strong? I cant imagine a naturally dominant man wanting to have to live with a woman who is always trying to top him and the relationship, he actually would prefer it if his woman submitted...if a woman is submitting totally, is she a doormat? If a man is attracted to a woman initially because of her ability to take control of her life, her ability to dominant life and situations..so as a challenge he takes her and owns her...she submits to him....what then? Th challenge is done..what is to become of the woman? She is now not displaying a lot of the attributes that initially attracted the man. Is this when the man starts looking for the next challenge to summount and the relationship collapses?
When a man says he is wanting the challenge of dominating a "strong" woman...what is he actually desiring?Does the woman have to play a game then to keep this man on his toes so that he remains interested in her for fear of becoming a doormat?

For me, being able to dominate isnt a challenge, its boring, it does nothing for my spirit. I would hate to think because I desire to obey Master and to cater to his every whim that I am a doormat as I am less strong somehow. I find submission a unique attribute, it is strong of itself just because it is itself. It doesnt have to become soemthing else (dominant) to be proved strong. When people say, they want a strong woman...what are they really asking for? It seems to me from what I read that various men are looking for a challenge, to make a *strong independent woman submit*..but I really think that is unrealistic in regards to long term relationship and is doomed to failure just because...if they accomplish their goal..the woman is conquered and no longer the person they were attracted to. (Hope this is making a bit of sense).

A truely (yes i used the word *true) dominant man WANTS a submissive woman and appreciates her for what she is, if he is looking for a long term relationship. If he is looking for something short term a dominant man could look for the independent type , the one he has to struggle with...but once she is conquered..she becomes disposable to him, like  a dusty old trophy on the shelf...or if he doesnt conquer her..she just becomes tiring..and so becomes disposable.

I really struggle with the word *doormat*...cuz really, for all intents and purposes.... I am a doormat when it comes to relationship and I dont care, I love it. I love to feel consumed and used and to be quite frank...when I'm really feeling my submission my intelligence goes right out the window....sometimes I have to be told the simplest things....does that mean Im not strong....not to me it doesnt...it means...im submissive.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to RavenMuse)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 4:14:50 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

What do you mean by strong? I cant imagine a naturally dominant man wanting to have to live with a woman who is always trying to top him and the relationship, he actually would prefer it if his woman submitted...if a woman is submitting totally, is she a doormat?



Ah, we are at very slightly cross perpouses here sweetie. I was refering to the doormat personality, those who can't cope, can't say no, submit to just about anything that is capable of barking an order at them because they find it easier than actualy thinking for themself.

Within a relationship, it takes a strong girl to truely submit, to work through even the difficult things because she wants to continue to submit. A strong girl has made a choise, she gives her submission to the Master who brings it out in her. It is about HIM, rather than with a doormat where it is all about their weakness and they would be acting just the same with anybody, not just him!

Does that make it a little clearer?


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 4:19:47 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		jali,

there was so much I agreed with in your post I couldn't pull a quote from it!  I think you put it very well.... what do you mean when you are saying 'strong sub'.  As some of you may have noticed, I am adamantly anti-label, because I feel that is just another way to categorize and even in some way a means of acceptable 'name-calling'.  I wonder if this 'strong sub' is not just another label.

Who on earth can say that being a non-reactionary submissive requires weakness?  Or that being willful and impertinent isn't anything other than a self indulgent, character based on a huge scale on the part of the submissive. ( I am playing devil's advocate here.)  You have consented to a relationship with a Dominant as his sub/slave.  At what point does your being difficult not show your lack of self control and devotion to the parameters you both agreed to in getting involved in that relationship?  Why is it strength to be ornery and troublesome? An why is it so easy to be scornful of those who may make it look easy or 'natural' to actively choose to please?  (I deliberately chose words which might be a sort of less than subtle counterpoint to the positive coloring used in calling  persons strongsub vs doormat).

Perhaps the problem is that we, as a pretty self absorbed, capitalistic society have lost much of the ability to really appreciate and value the quiet strength of giving and kindness.  Do you know how much strength it takes at times to give when it is not easy to give, to be kind when it is not easy to be kind?  Do you think even the most 'doormattingly' submissive slave doesn't have to fight the knee jerk reaction to tell someone off when they are being hurt, or when they disagree with a decision?  

Some cultures still understand the strength and power in quiet.  In many ways, so much of our society is still so young, we mistake temperamental feistiness as strength as often as we mistake a quiet giving as incapability or spinelessness.

(in reply to slavejali)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 4:25:17 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Yes...Ive really got a button surrounding the doormat word. Intellectually I can understand that a doormat personality is one who lacks intelligence and strength of character etc...but something inside me just conflicts when I hear *doormat*. I think I can vaguely recall my mother saying I was a doormat to my partners, maybe its just that..ugh! *grin*...and not referring to you RavenMuse...but I do see some men saying they want a strong woman and the way they express it, its like they mean a submissive nature is weak and that reallly really really upsets me.

P.S. and I also hate that I'm expressing about a button that I have cuz I see all buttons as weaknesses and I really hate feeling weak.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to RavenMuse)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 4:29:20 AM   
LaMspeach


Posts: 794
Joined: 12/4/2004
From: Philadelphia area, PA
Status: offline 		It takes a strong women to give her all and an even stronger Dom/Domme to know what to do with it.

I think you need to be strong and in control of yourself before you can give that control away.... You cant give away what you do not own, so if your not in control of yourself how can you give your all to a D/s _ M/s relationship.



_____________________________

peach ~ LordandMasters devoted alpha slave
"Only when the year has grown cold does one know that the pine and cypress are the last to wither"



(in reply to crazypatient)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 4:30:02 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

Some cultures still understand the strength and power in quiet.  In many ways, so much of our society is still so young, we mistake temperamental feistiness as strength as often as we mistake a quiet giving as incapability or spinelessness.


god, thats so true....

Addition: and puella....i just agree with every point you made..so I wont paste it all in as a quote (grin)... like I even see submissives say their challenging nature keeps their Dom interested...but submission isnt about challenging..its about submitting...isnt it? If a Dom requires to be challenged by their submissive all the time, I see that as ..well I dont quite know what I see it as..maybe like a game? Thats not good enough for me when it comes to day to day relationship.

Being submissive is not weak.

< Message edited by slavejali -- 4/20/2006 4:47:32 AM >

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 5:30:28 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazypatient

how to masters feel about strong subs?  I find men that think that all women should be totally submissive... but most turely strong men require their women to be strong enouph to be a challenge to dominate...  any man can dominate a weak woman, it really takes a man to dominate a strong woman... any thoughts?



Very few men actually believe all women should be submissive, you are over generalizing. My master is married to my Mistress who is a Domme period. I do not mean she is submissive to him and tops me, i mean she is purely dominant herself.

That said are you confusing strength with intelligence or are you speaking of emotionally strong? All of the Doms/Dommes that i am friends with prefer an intelligent emotionally strong sub/slave.

Or perhaps you are speaking of willful and hard to tame, one who is defiant?

Or one whose struggles challenges the Dom/Domme to work at revealing their submissiveness?

From a slave's viewpoint i do not think a Dom/Domme enjoys a willful sub/slave but rather one who embraces who they are.

Yet i do believe they enjoy winning those heart felt mental wars all sub/slaves go through as part of the process of growing in their submissiveness. No matter how experienced the sub/slave is we all struggle with some things. This inner struggle and eventual defeat at our Master's/Mistress's hands i know the Dom/Domme enjoys. The owners want to win that battle, watch their property fight then surrender to the owner’s strength. So do most subs/slaves enjoy their defeat, after all if we really wanted to win we would be dominants ourselves, not slaves.



_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to crazypatient)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 5:45:24 AM   
Dartantris


Posts: 18
Joined: 1/31/2006
Status: offline 		"Strong" women can absolutely be true submissives. It's relative. I've been in relationships with women who most people objectively describe as strong willed. However, in relationship to me, they were weaker. Therefore, they were submissive to me. They absolutely loved being submissive. One woman who went on to have a "vanilla" relationships told me that their new lover was somewhat stunned at their submissive behavior. They couldn't reconcile the outward perception they had of this person and their behavior in an intimate relationship.

As far as a preference, I don't see much of a difference. I'm a naturally dominant man and have never been in a relationship where I felt I was the dominant in a relationship. The degree of submissiveness is kind of irrelevant. I get my way anyway. It's just evolves at a different pace. Either is cool to me.

Sir Mike

(in reply to crazypatient)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 6:05:35 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazypatient
how to masters feel about strong subs?  I find men that think that all women should be totally submissive... but most turely strong men require their women to be strong enouph to be a challenge to dominate...  any man can dominate a weak woman, it really takes a man to dominate a strong woman... any thoughts?

Actually it's pretty hard to dominate a weak person in the long term.  They are very unstable people who require constant attention and maintenence. 

Strong people make strong relationships.

As far as the challenge thing- that gets tiring too, and it's not something I do except in forceplay scenes.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to crazypatient)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 6:24:22 AM   
angelthighhighs


Posts: 104
Joined: 5/29/2004
Status: offline 		personally i don't think being a strong female has much to do about my being a submissive.  i submit to someone because my heart and soul tells me that i trust this person and respect and care enough about him to surrender my control over to him.   my being strong i believe has more to do with the need to survive in this world.  i raised 3 kids on my own since i was 23, they're all grown up and married now.  if i were not a strong person, how would i have been able to handle raising kids, working and other challenges in my life.  i believe that a submissive must first be in control of herself and her life before she can give that control over to another.....if she has no control how can she give something away she never have?

being strong doesn't mean i wouldn't submit. it just means that i do have a mind of my own and will take the time to decide for myself if this person is the type of person i wish to surrender to.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Strong subs.. - 4/20/2006 7:16:48 AM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		My definition for doormat is any subbie more submissive than you think she should be or want her to be.

(in reply to bandit25)
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