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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:17:44 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
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Status: offline 		Back to the topic of "disclosure".  I agree with Lindsay that it is not a black and white issue because of issues of threat, transphobic targeting, etc..  But that does not gain to much ground in the kink community - again because we are all so very much ingrained to the concept of "informed consent".

I don't see non-disclosure as a "lie".  I see it as an omission.  If we are having coffee, what is under my skirt is none of your business.  If we are going back to my place to get intimate...now we almost certainly need to talk before we get hot and heavy!  But are you going to feel "betrayed" because I did not tell you I had a dick before we had coffee?

Many within the trans community have taken the basic concepts of Cisgender privilege - concepts like "It is not acceptable upon meeting me to ask me what my operative status is so you can divine what genitals I have." and worked it around complex issues for not disclosing, not dealing, not being responsible to the other person they are interacting with in any way.  I don't agree with that.

As I said, there is defined danger in disclosure - at any point in the process.  Not an easy decision and for that reason, many many trans folk are alone by choice.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:19:40 PM   
sweetlindsey84


Posts: 103
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline 		all i am saying ladypact is that transsexuals women are not men therefore their gender is not Being withheld..... if the guy thinks the girl is hot and the girl happens to be a feminine trans that in no way makes them gay.... does it?

I understand what your saying though..... but why does the cisgendered deserve to be hurt less than the transsexual?

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:21:18 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
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Status: offline 		I actually did in fact put myself in their shoes and compare their situation to mine as much as I can, no one can really truly know what it's like to ever be another person......(still beating that drum aren't ya?). If you're suggesting I lack compassion, you're quite wrong.

But the simple fact is, it's not one-sided. The person going on that date with them has a right to know if the person they are with would meet THEIR definition of the gender they chose to go out on a date with. Whether you believe they are wrong for having that definition or not, they do have the right to have their own viewpoint and make their own informed decision.

I did say " as soon as it's rationally possible and appropriate", if you actually read my post.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 8/15/2010 5:23:45 PM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:24:44 PM   
CeriseNin


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Status: offline 		I hear you, but what about my choice not to date a transgendered person? If you - - hypothetical you - - don't disclose that information off the bat, before the date, then I think I'm having a date with a biological woman when I'm not, so I may be thinking there's potential, when the reality is, you're stringing me along. I wouldn't feel betrayed but I'd have nothing else to do with you, not even as friends. Not because you're trans but because you're a liar, by my standards.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:30:07 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
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Status: offline 		I think that the thing that is pretty clear in this thread is that, regardless of general acceptance of transgenders within the community posting to this thread (specifically the "community" of posters here, not CM in general or the BDSM community or anything else) is that some members of the community would feel hurt or betrayed if they developed affections for someone and then found out that that person was not born in the gender to which xhe currently aligns.

For those who have followed their bodies and hearts and for whom that self-honesty meant leaving behind the gender of their birth and claiming the gender which they feel most whole in, this leads to a conundrum. For myself, I would encourage my associates who are transitioning or who have transitioned to tell me if they're comfortable doing so. Would I end a relationship with someone if I found out later xhe'd lied about hir gender? Maybe -- it depends on whether it was a lie of omission (xhe didn't feel comfortable in telling me about hir gender change yet) or a lie of -comission- (xhe actively lied about hir entire life up until that point, making up tales about having lived in hir current gender for hir entire life), and at what level we related to one another:

  • if an acquaintance committed either offense, I wouldn't end the relationship, but if it was a lie of commission, I'd certainly be more cautious about what was said to me in the future
  • If an associate committed a lie of omission, I would retain the relationship, and would respect that xhe just wasn't comfortable enough with me to share that kind of information in the relationship we had. If an associate lied by -commission-, I would distance myself from the relationship, as I would find that situation to be both cowardly and breaching any measure of honesty we had purportedly created between us.
  • If an -intimate- committed either offense, I would have to re-evaluate the entire relationship, and yes, I would most likely end the relationship, at least the intimate nature of said relationship, until I could figure out whether there was enough trust anywhere in our relationship to warrant having this person as part of my intimate circle.
The thing is, every relationship comes with risks. One of the risks of living on the fringes of mainstream society, for whatever reason, is that, if we expose ourselves for what we are, we may lose the relationship we exposed ourselves -for-, and, in some cases, may jeopardize our own health and safety in the process. For me, this has been a no-brainer. I've always made myself available, hoping that I could balance out the risk with the opportunities that might come out of being more exposed. I've also given the people that I associate with the option to keep our relationship more casual, if they think that, by being around someone who is as exposed as I am, they might find themselves at a level of risk that they're not willing to take. If someone chooses not to take the risk to 'out' themselves to me, I respect that -- but I'll consider their relationship with me accordingly. If they -do- expose themselves, I consider it my responsibility to both respect that they -did- share that with me, AND respect that doing so is a risky proposition.

We all have choices. Our lives are -filled- with them. Personally,  I choose to put myself out there. I understand that some other people can't or won't. I also understand that my choice to -be- exposed means some people won't want to be around me, and those are just part of the responsibility of making adult choices in a challenging world.

Calla


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:34:43 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CeriseNin

I hear you, but what about my choice not to date a transgendered person? If you - - hypothetical you - - don't disclose that information off the bat, before the date, then I think I'm having a date with a biological woman when I'm not, so I may be thinking there's potential, when the reality is, you're stringing me along. I wouldn't feel betrayed but I'd have nothing else to do with you, not even as friends. Not because you're trans but because you're a liar, by my standards.


And this -is- the risk. Certainly there are things about you that you don't share on a 1st date -- things that might very well be deal-breakers for the person that you're with, if they knew. Just being on this board is enough for some people to write you off as a freak. So on those terms, why is it so different for someone who has transitioned genders, who is -living- as hir current gender, and who isn't sure about the person that xhe's 'dating' to keep a measure of privacy about such a volatile issue... as long as that person understands that, should xhe meet someone like -you-, and disclose later on in the game, xhe might lose you?

It is a choice. In all but the rarest of cases, such withholding of information is done -completely- without malice. Either choice has risks, so which is more palatable -- only those in the individual situation can decide.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/15/2010 5:35:39 PM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:38:34 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

all i am saying ladypact is that transsexuals women are not men therefore their gender is not Being withheld..... if the guy thinks the girl is hot and the girl happens to be a feminine trans that in no way makes them gay.... does it?

I understand what your saying though..... but why does the cisgendered deserve to be hurt less than the transsexual?

Here's the deal.

Right here on this thread, there were enough opinions (right or wrong to you, they are right to those individuals) expressed that they do not see the gender issue as you do.  They really do get to feel that way.  They have the right to not be intentionally deceived. 

If one person asks another out on a date, they are asking the gender that person appears to be.  In accepting, the person who does so is allowing them to go forward in something that may not exactly be the reality.

There is a difference between avoiding hurting somebody and specifically setting up the situation to happen.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:42:30 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		In my own experience, once I finally came to grips with actually embracing my female side and no longer oppressing it, I did disclose - completely from the start.  I believe that decision served me.

But...I think had I known at that time the things I know now - the very real danger present in being transgendered (96 murders in 2009, a more than 100% increase from 2008)...people who disclose being targeted and assaulted or killed specifically because they are trans...that would have given me pause.  I think my decision would have been the same, but I can certainly see where some might have real fear around it all.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:45:22 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I don't see non-disclosure as a "lie".  I see it as an omission.  If we are having coffee, what is under my skirt is none of your business.  If we are going back to my place to get intimate...now we almost certainly need to talk before we get hot and heavy!  But are you going to feel "betrayed" because I did not tell you I had a dick before we had coffee?

I think part of this row started with AQSM's post, and I just want to point out that in his situation there *were* lies-this friend of his talked about events and experiences that plain did not happen. That's beyond plain omission, no?

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:45:32 PM   
CeriseNin


Posts: 286
Joined: 4/8/2010
Status: offline 		Yes, there's personal information I don't give out on the first date, however, I don't date biological men, so a flesh & blood penis is a massive, never getting over hurdle for a romantic relationship to occur between me and the hypothetical date. If it's a person I've befriended and have no romantic interest in, she none in me, then I couldn't care less what's under the skirt and it's none of my business. If they tell me, that's fine. If not, well, that's fine too. If after a friendship she and I eventually develop romantic feelings and she discloses to me she's trans, I won't feel betrayed or angry or that she lied to me at all, because it wasn't important for me to know until one of us made it known there was a romantic interest.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:46:41 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		That's a very unique and real fear Otters and I'm certainly sympathetic to it. I don't know that it changes the other person's right to know at all. It makes for a difficult conflict, because obviously you have to balance that with your right to be safe. There's no doubt about that either. It's so unfortunate that there are such ugly things in the world that make this such a difficult situation.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:47:53 PM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan
Here is the way I see it. Tell people you are what you feel you are, but if what you feel you are does not match what your underwear covers, then before you get involved with someone on a romantic level you should have enough integrity to let them know what you are or are not packing.

I remember being upset when I found out one of my firends was a Transvestite, Not because He was really a She, but because most of the stories that xhe told were all likes. Talking about Boyscouts that they were never in, talking about embarasing penis moments, and finding out it was all bullshit, really bothered me. What is really fucked up is that I would have had no issue being Hir firend if Xhe was was upfront.

The Lies is what bothered me, it really ruined our friendship, I felt betrayed and like I couldn't trust Hir anymore.

{clip}

Part of the Bonding I did with Hir was due to shared experiences from our childhood. We talked about having "Small Dicks" watching Porn and assuming eventually we would have the same size cocks. When I found out it was all a lie, it was like finding out that your wife had once had sex with your dad, it just seems like the kinda thing you should have known before you started forging this relationship because that may have been something that would have stopped it from the beginning at least knowing up front I get to decide before there is a History.


I find this an extremely sad story. To be clear, the person in question was your friend. Identified as male. You had no romantic interest in this person. I read this story and I'm not at all concerned with your sense of Betrayal. I'm too distracted by the heartbreaking idea of a FTM remembering childhood feelings of inadequate genitalia and dreams of growing up to be like the men in porn. I cannot agree that you were entitled, as a friend, to the individual's life story. The fact that you apparently consider "male bonding" achieved under the false pretense of possessing a penis since birth to be a violation akin to romantic intimacy achieved under false pretense is odd. You must have an unusual circle of male friends if none of the bonding involves hyperbole and tales of questionable truth value. Maybe your former friend really was an untrustworthy person, but the details you've shared aren't very compelling.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:54:24 PM   
sweetlindsey84


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Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline 		once again i read these posts and all i see is that you all think that since a transsexual is not their actual gender.... but instead is and always will be the gender they were assigned at birth.... that i think is hugely wrong.... you guys can slice it up however you want... but it is still a big ole shit right on my plate

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:57:14 PM   
laurell3


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That's not the point. Whether someone is wrong or not, they still have the right to choose according to their own definition of gender. Even if they are wrong, if a heterosexual male feels that anyone that has ever had a penis is a male and they would NOT ever engage in sexual contact with them, to do so without disclosing that to them, is wrong too.

No one here is adopting any definition that I can see of it's not even the focus of the conversation. What they are supporting is that everyone has the right to their own feelings and preferences and you cannot escape that by saying that your definition and feelings are better.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 8/15/2010 6:31:37 PM >

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 5:57:40 PM   
CeriseNin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

once again i read these posts and all i see is that you all think that since a transsexual is not their actual gender.... but instead is and always will be the gender they were assigned at birth.... that i think is hugely wrong.... you guys can slice it up however you want... but it is still a big ole shit right on my plate

I'm one of those strange sort of lesbians who doesn't get romantically involved with biological men.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 6:02:42 PM   
SthrnCom4t


Posts: 343
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Status: offline 		Calla - outstanding post. Thank you for taking the time to define where your boundaries are and your perception of the differences between omission and commission. I can very much relate.

Otters and I have had this discussion of 'when to disclose', as it's been a very hot topic on another board. In my head, I tend to place it in the same box as an STD or Erectile Dysfunction.(not suggesting being trans is a disease/dysfunction, nor that it's in any way negative....more so that it is an 'intimate' detail that I may or may not need the general public to know.)

If we're having coffee, I don't really need to tell you my sexual details. If I want to sleep with you, then not only will I ask you a lot of questions, I'll be open and share my history with you.

No one can know the absolute 'right' time that the other person is ready to hear intimate details. If the other person isn't interested in sleeping with me/isn't interested in an emotional relationship, etc,  my disclosure would be a moot point. Also, in not knowing that person well, how do I know he/she wouldn't share that intimate detail with the rest of the team/office/other PTA members?

Also, if I don't have much experience with *trans/STDs/ED/women who squirt, <insert your preference here>*, in my world it's not a common thing, therefore, I might UNCONSCIOUSLY assume other people are just like me, and I don't even consider that any questions need to be asked.

Always being safe to be open about who we are (poly, kinky, trans, etc) would be ideal, but the reality is, depending on where you are, what state you live in, the history and education of the person you're with, etc, requires us to use awareness and good judgment. It doesn't guarantee safe passage, but it does help avoid poor situations.

As an aside, and knowing how difficult some of our intimate details and preferences are, even if it's not something I'm into personally, I realize and acknowledge the courage it takes to reveal, and have great honor for the privilege of being included.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 6:05:03 PM   
OttersSwim


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Joined: 9/1/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I don't see non-disclosure as a "lie".  I see it as an omission.  If we are having coffee, what is under my skirt is none of your business.  If we are going back to my place to get intimate...now we almost certainly need to talk before we get hot and heavy!  But are you going to feel "betrayed" because I did not tell you I had a dick before we had coffee?

I think part of this row started with AQSM's post, and I just want to point out that in his situation there *were* lies-this friend of his talked about events and experiences that plain did not happen. That's beyond plain omission, no?


It is and I think he was right to end the friendship if that violated his sense of honor and integrity around the friendship.  I also find it very sad. 

Understand that for many, their birth gender feels like a terrible genetic mistake.  People commit suicide, self medicate, and can spin their lives out of control because of it.  The entire process of that perception of difference, then the repression, denial, misery, and (hopefully) eventual acceptance and embracing - then coming out to family and friends, dealing with acceptance and rejection, jobs, finances, and going through all the transformation process...some just want it all to be -over-. 

They create the life they felt they should have had.  Not saying it is right.  But I can see why and where it happens.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 6:05:52 PM   
sweetlindsey84


Posts: 103
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline 		ok so in the spirit of educating.....erise what your saying is hurtful.... not because of your opinion but because of your false use of facts....calling a transwoman a biological man is hurtful..... you don't even say what a biological man is.... you just lay your dog crap out there and accept me to be ok with it ?

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 6:07:22 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

ok well first of all how much time do you think it takes to get to know a person.... i understand some people might have sex on the first date...when they do though there is going to be plenty of things that they don't know about that person that might not please them on both sides of the table... people don't usually tell someone they just met about if they were raped or any other traumatic events in their life that may have shaped who they are (some do and that is a personal choice)......I feel like it is a personal choice when a trans person tells....to say they are lying because they don't is both wrong and insulting.... honestlly if you try to use compassion and put yourself in their shoes sometimes the world looks alot different ya know?


If I am at the point of dating someone, that means I am sexually attracted to them and see a possible future for us. If I found out after that point that they hadn't mentioned the fact that they were born male and had a penis instead of a vagina, I would consider that a lie and a deal breaker.  If I found out that they had been raped or had some other traumatic event, I might be upset that they felt they couldn't talk about it, but other than that, I don't see it as a major problem.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 6:10:06 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

But I can see why and where it happens.

Absolutely. But I can also see a person thinking he shared a commonality, an understanding of where he's come from with a friend, and then finding out that this friend had wanted that commonality badly enough to lie, and still feeling hurt by that lie.

It's a messy issue.

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