RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 1:34:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Guys, this one is really pretty simple.

If America doesn't stand for religious freedom, what does it stand for?  "Religious freedom" doesn't mean "freedom to be a Christian."  Would people make this much of a fuss if someone wanted to build a church in Oklahoma City?

I certainly don't remember the Americans insisting that Catholic churches were a bad thing, and should all be razed to the ground after the IRA blew up half of Birmingham.
Still, these were terrorists they were bankrolling, just like the muhjahadeen, before they turned into al queda. They were killing evil British people. Obviously a good thing.

You people have a real nerve turning around and insisting that lunatic fringe organisations you used to fund are a bad thing because they've killed a few Americans rather than foreigners who don't matter.




flcouple2009 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 1:44:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

I always kinda saw it as a carrot and stick.  Love me and you can get to heaven (the carrot), or not and all of these bad things will happen to you (the stick).



Yes, your parents were horribly abusive when they told you not to touch a red hot stove or you would burn your hand.




And Free Will is a bedrock value of Islam, the same as Christianity.


Yep, there's on in every crowd.




kdsub -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 2:17:11 PM)

I believe the strong opinions in this thread are more the result of political differences than the actual building of a Mosque near, not on, the World Trade Center.

Surely reasonable people can see both sides of this argument. I do understand the relatives being upset that these church elders can’t seem to understand the negative symbolism of their actions. And I also understand that the very foundations of our Constitution demand that they have the right to build a church anywhere they can legally purchase the properly zoned property.

Why must we try to assign blame to any politician or party when they have no choice but to allow the construction? This divisiveness among us over this matter is doing no one, or political party any good.

As Obama has hinted at and I believe, the fault is with the church and seller…not that it is illegal…but that it is a callus disregard of the feelings of the victims involved… even if some were Moslems killed in the attack.

Any reasonable church or individuals would understand the problems of this location and the potential animosity to the church practitioners and at least attempt to find property in another area that would not inflame emotions.

The fact that they refuse to do this or even consider it leads me to believe they are trying to make a political statement rather then just find a location for their center.

I do blame them and I am angry…BUT…I follow the laws of my country. I fought for their right to build that church even if I don’t like it. I believe it will hurt their wanted perception of a peaceful religion in America and it is a mistake on their part… So be it I will remember.

Butch




juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 2:49:11 PM)

quote:

Any reasonable church or individuals would understand the problems of this location and the potential animosity to the church practitioners and at least attempt to find property in another area that would not inflame emotions.

The fact that they refuse to do this or even consider it leads me to believe they are trying to make a political statement rather then just find a location for their center.

I do blame them and I am angry…BUT…I follow the laws of my country. I fought for their right to build that church even if I don’t like it. I believe it will hurt their wanted perception of a peaceful religion in America and it is a mistake on their part… So be it I will remember.



I would highly disagree with this, just because people do not agree with your view does not make them "unreasonable" or "wrong"

You say that this comes down to "political differences"... I think it comes down to religious differences. Perhaps, generally speaking, liberals are more tolerant of difference which you equate to the R and the D debate... this isn't about that.


This debate is about religious freedom, and the fact that not all Americans equate Islam with 9-11, not all of us are Christian, and not all of us take sides in this so-called religious war that extremists want to foment...

I don't remember whether or not you are a Christian or not, but if you are, this is possibly why you are so angry and put-out feeling about a mosque being built anywhere...There are many Muslim Americans, and they matter just as much as any other... period, end of story




Moonhead -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 2:54:16 PM)

Why have people spent this thread referring to a community centre sort of thing as a mosque?




juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:18:52 PM)

WASHINGTON – Weighing his words carefully on a fiery political issue, President Barack Obama said Saturday that Muslims have the right to build a mosque near New York's Ground Zero, but he did not say whether he believes it is a good idea to do so.




kdsub -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:19:41 PM)

Let me ask you this juliaoceania...My first paragraph you seem to disagree with... don't you think the church elders are putting the people that will attend this center at risk?...I do and unnecessarily...what do you disagree with in that statement?

In your second paragraph you seem to have missed my point... The political differences I am referring to is the fact that a religious matter is being turned into a political one when it should not be.

For our last disagreement I am a Christian but if you have followed my posts over the years I've been here you would know I believe in freedom and tolerance of all religions. I believe it is at the very foundations of our country.

What I believe is the Church is turning this into a political statement by ignoring the feelings of the people in the area... even if those people are wrong.

What real difference would it make moving the center a few blocks in another direction? Yes they should not have to but religion, any religion, should always take into consideration the feelings of its neighbors...if possible...they are not doing this.

BUT believe me I do understand you feelings on this subject and agree your view is very viable… but you must remember right or wrong it is not the view of many and I can’t believe you, a very intelligent person, cannot understand the opposing view and find it equally compelling if not right.

Butch




dcnovice -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:21:46 PM)

quote:

What I believe is the Church is turning this into a political statement by ignoring the feelings of the people in the area... even if those people are wrong.


But are the people in the area the ones who are upset? Most of the heat seems to be coming from elsewhere.




truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:24:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Polls are a red herring, they do not represent everyone, as the results of polls is only dependant on who and how many took the poll, which could be anything from one person through to millions of people, the use of percentages is therefore misleading and should not be taken with any substance of credibility.

Then of polls, what kind of people take them, sure there will be those keen to say their piece, perhaps a case of  a pollster is giving a person the importance of them actually listening to their views, where normally the vast majority of people are unheard and they know it.

So it could be a poll response based upon the misguided thought that what they say has credibility to others, or they have some feelings to vent in a meaningful way. It could also be pollster are being flippant, or malicious or joking or whatever, as with polls, they tend to be anonymous i.e. if a person cannot be recognised for what they say they feel more comfortable saying what they say.

Polls mean shit simple as that and are not a true representation of thought or feeling.

But



Gee, an entire multi-billion industry is just useless. You should tell that to people.
Or maybe take a poll on it [:)]




kdsub -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:27:24 PM)

I must say you could be right and I certainly believe the political attacks are mostly coming from outside New York... but I have been seeing the protests in the area by victims relatives but I cannot say what the majority view in New York is.

Butch




truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:32:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

What, you mean like the terrorist insurgents who kicked the British out of their American colonies, you mean?

Well damn, no shit. A bunch of terrorists, eh? And here I thought the war was fought by the uniformed Continental Army, which was authorized by the Continental Congress and supplemented by local state Militias under control of the individual States.

K.


While it's absolutely true that many of our tactics were considered unfair by the British, your point would rise above puerile sarcasm if Washington had sent a couple boatloads of men to England to pose as civilians and try to burn down London, killing as many women and children as possible in the process.

Edit: This was a response to Moonhead, not Kirata.




truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:36:24 PM)

quote:

It have never occurred to you that they might be building their religions center as a sign of support for the victims and their families. That the 9/11 attacks is a appealing to most Muslims as it is to other Americans and that they wish to build a place of worship nearby to honor those that died and as a testament to peace against violence?


three words:

No. Cordoba. Mosque.




juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:38:01 PM)

quote:

Let me ask you this juliaoceania...My first paragraph you seem to disagree with... don't you think the church elders are putting the people that will attend this center at risk?...I do and unnecessarily...what do you disagree with in that statement?


I think some things are worth the risk. If it were my faith I would be willing to undergo that risk to demonstrate not only my faith in Allah (which according to Islam our time of passing is in Allah's hands), but to stand up for freedom of religion

quote:

In your second paragraph you seem to have missed my point... The political differences I am referring to is the fact that a religious matter is being turned into a political one when it should not be.


I think that the freedom to worship however we like is sacrosanct, as long as it is not on the taxpayer and what we have paid for...If you think this is about "politics", well everything is political. When people had sit-ins to push for desegregation it was a political statement. Political statement isn't a dirty word. Do you really think that those protesting this building aren't making a political statement? It works both ways.


quote:

What real difference would it make moving the center a few blocks in another direction? Yes they should not have to but religion, any religion, should always take into consideration the feelings of its neighbors...if possible...they are not doing this.



In this country Synagogues have been attacked, Black churches have been attacked, Christian churches have been attacked. Should those people move because some of their neighbors don't like their churches? Seriously, are you really going to say that the freedom of people to assemble in a place of worship should be dependent on their popularity within that community? I STRONGLY reject this notion


quote:

BUT believe me I do understand you feelings on this subject and agree your view is very viable… but you must remember right or wrong it is not the view of many and I can’t believe you, a very intelligent person, cannot understand the opposing view and find it equally compelling if not right.


I don't find it compelling at all. We have freedom to worship whatever we like on private property. If people don't like that they can move to Saudi Arabia[8|]




juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:41:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

It have never occurred to you that they might be building their religions center as a sign of support for the victims and their families. That the 9/11 attacks is a appealing to most Muslims as it is to other Americans and that they wish to build a place of worship nearby to honor those that died and as a testament to peace against violence?


three words:

No. Cordoba. Mosque.


Three words

Freedom of Religion


You know, that part of the constitution that comes before the second amendment




Notsweet -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 3:48:20 PM)

Are there really people who don't think this is a political statement? To build a mosque where fragments of body parts of the victims are still buried?

Let's pretend it's not. Let's pretend your mother, brother, wife, son and daughter are murdered by someone who owns a McDonald's. Then McDonald's offers to put a new fast food fill-up point where they were killed.

Is that simple enough? I mean, I could go into a much more logical explanation, but why bother?

We have "hate crimes" in this country. We now have laws that say you can't say something because it might hurt someone's tiny feewwings. And the people who screamed for those laws think it's perfectly ok to build this thing where it will break the hearts of thousands of people. But it's ok to fuck with them, because it's important to look "tolerant." Tolerant? Look at what people say to and about Christians around here. Fucking please.

And as to whether or not people outside of New York should have an opinion, we'll stop as soon as we don't have to send anyone there to die in the clean up, as soon as it's determined that everyone who died in the attack was a native New Yorker. FFS. The tragedy "belongs" to someone now? Only to New Yorkers? What about those of us who have people we love in New York? Is it ok if we have an opinion?

Flame on. I won't be reading it, so I don't care.




juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 4:02:49 PM)

quote:

Are there really people who don't think this is a political statement? To build a mosque where fragments of body parts of the victims are still buried?


Opposing it isn't a political statement?




pogo4pres -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 4:06:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Guys, this one is really pretty simple.

If America doesn't stand for religious freedom, what does it stand for?  "Religious freedom" doesn't mean "freedom to be a Christian."  Would people make this much of a fuss if someone wanted to build a church in Oklahoma City?

I don't know where everyone is getting the bizarre idea that America was founded as a Christian nation, but document after document proves that it wasn't.  The Treaty of Tripoli has been mentioned in this thread, but you really don't even need the Treaty of Tripoli; it's crystal clear in The Federalist that the Founding Fathers did not envision the United States of America as a Christian nation.  I'm sorry if The Federalist rains on your ideological parade, but there's no better guide to the thinking behind the Constitution.  So please, everyone, kindly let go of the bullshit that the Founding Fathers would have opposed this.

And unless you guys have any proof that the Muslim community trying to build this mosque has connections with terrorism, you're coming very close to the libel standard by continuously implying that they do.

I wish I could say "end of fucking story," but I know it won't be, because Fox News is going to keep inflaming useful idiots, and useful idiots are going to keep making themselves useful.



Bravo sir, this is probably the single best summation since very early in this thread.  Some folks keep bringing up "faith", well allow me to state clearly my only faith is faith in the FUCKING STUPIDITY of my fellow humans.  It is a faith that has NEVER been unrewarded, it is the gift that keeps on giving.    The on-going debate is puerile at best as I and Lordandmaster, have pointed out, THIS IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION.  The founders wanted no parts of a fucking theocracy, and wrote the Constitution to be clear they didn't :

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What god damned part of "Congress shall make NO LAW" is beyond comprehension, and the part about, "free exercise there of", means I can worship or NOT any fucking way I want.   

As the late great George Carlin once put it :
“I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.”  and this:  "Atheism is a non-prophet organization”   and finally this: “If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little”.  

Man I miss Carlin so much.


Atheistically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


[/link][link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#cite_note-0]




Aneirin -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 4:29:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Polls are a red herring, they do not represent everyone, as the results of polls is only dependant on who and how many took the poll, which could be anything from one person through to millions of people, the use of percentages is therefore misleading and should not be taken with any substance of credibility.

Then of polls, what kind of people take them, sure there will be those keen to say their piece, perhaps a case of  a pollster is giving a person the importance of them actually listening to their views, where normally the vast majority of people are unheard and they know it.

So it could be a poll response based upon the misguided thought that what they say has credibility to others, or they have some feelings to vent in a meaningful way. It could also be pollster are being flippant, or malicious or joking or whatever, as with polls, they tend to be anonymous i.e. if a person cannot be recognised for what they say they feel more comfortable saying what they say.

Polls mean shit simple as that and are not a true representation of thought or feeling.

But



Gee, an entire multi-billion industry is just useless. You should tell that to people.
Or maybe take a poll on it [:)]



Yes, exactly, as the very business of polling unidentified and there unaccountable people is at best a complete waste of time and money. For polls to mean something, then those polled should be identifiable and there accountable as otherwise it is open to too much abuse, even a case of people saying one thing when in public view, but saying something entirely different when their identity is not known. I understand why people wish to keep their identity secret when responding in the true truth that they feel away from public scrutiny and possible reprisal. In  away polls could be useful, but in their present guise, they create nothing but untruths about any situation where a poll is posted.

Then comes the businesses that use polls, do they represent the information gathered in a complete unbiased  and honest way, or do they kneel to their paying master and do what is bid by them for whatever they wish to use a poll for. To remember money seems to be made more effectively when dishonesty is in the mix, so perhaps a multi billion industry knows how it can make money for basically old rope, use the data collected to influence others by careful manipulation of those results to achieve their employers aim.

But maybe it is me, perhaps I am jaded, but my understanding is where there is money, wealth and power, there is also dishonesty, corruption and manipulation, perhaps more so now than ever before, or at least more obvious in our media orientated manipulative world.

But here on Collarme, we have a poll function, but what does it serve beyond a bit of fun. Is the results going to change anything, the way people think perhaps, hardly I suspect, so what does a poll do apart from creating difference where there was none before. But of the polls on Collarme who polls, all the visitors to the relevant section or only those who are interested. The polls on Collarme illustrate my previous point exactly, polls do not represent everyone, only those that participate and of those that participate what representation are they of the entire forum, message board, website, internet community, political affiliation, religion, country, world etc. Polls at best are bullshit and people need to understand their use and purpose, for they are not as important as they are made out to be.

Believe nothing of what you hear unless you can verify it yourself and believe only half of what you see when it is presented by those that stand to gain.




kdsub -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 4:37:10 PM)

I seem to be having problems making myself understood to you... could be my fault …because again we are agreeing...I think... I believe the republican party is using this no win situation to make political gains for the up coming election... This is what I am talking about turning a religious matter to a political one. They figure they cannot loose because they know there is nothing Obama or the Democrats can do.

As for the rest of your points I have already addressed them

Butch




juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 4:39:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I seem to be having problems making myself understood to you... could be my fault …because again we are agreeing...I think... I believe the republican party is using this no win situation to make political gains for the up coming election... This is what I am talking about turning a religious matter to a political one. They figure they cannot loose because they know there is nothing Obama or the Democrats can do.

As for the rest of your points I have already addressed them

Butch


I agree with this....

But I will also say that not all of those opposed to this are so because of political expediency, there are some people that genuinely feel their religion is threatened by someone else's... sad, but true




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