RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 10:48:49 AM)

quote:

There is a religious war, no doubt, and it does spring in part from 9/11. It is not, however, an Islamic initiative, but rather the conservative Christians, especially in the southern states, seizing the opportunity to march to their agenda of a Christendom not essentially different than Urban II's vision of crusade.


The Christian Zionist movement, and the Left Behind Folks



Musicmystery -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 10:49:24 AM)

quote:

It seems to me the hype isnt coming from those that want to build the mosque, but those against it.


Bingo.

This is a conservative Christian "war."



Kirata -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 10:57:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Will they be starting anytime soon?

It's in the mail.

K.



juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:02:17 AM)

Fast Reply

If anyone does not think there are large factions of Christian Right Wing religious extremism... this is for you
Jesus Camp



thishereboi -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:05:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Have you ever had a Muslim friend? I have several


I met a muslim angel once, I think she may have saved my life[:)]



flcouple2009 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:07:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Christians are not called upon to "submit" to God, nor are they called upon to "submit" to His laws...

They are called upon to love God, and to do His will because they love Him.

K.


or to be damned to hell for all of eternity. 

It does have the ring of domestic abuse doesn't it.  Love me or I'll make you suffer.



juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:08:19 AM)

I have classes with Muslims, go to their political rallies, etc... they don't scare me.



thishereboi -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:10:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have classes with Muslims, go to their political rallies, etc... they don't scare me.


Well I have never been to a rally, but I also have classes with them. Not sure why you mentioned the scary part. Did you think they would? They are people just like us, the only difference is their belief. What is so scary about that?



juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:19:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have classes with Muslims, go to their political rallies, etc... they don't scare me.


Well I have never been to a rally, but I also have classes with them. Not sure why you mentioned the scary part. Did you think they would? They are people just like us, the only difference is their belief. What is so scary about that?



The post you replied to, the one in which I asked truckinslave if he knew any Muslims, well there was a reason why I asked him that question, because he seems very afraid of Muslims...

The question was not a general one to the entire board



joether -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:21:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
quote:


According to the founding fathers, America should be a country where peoples of all faiths, including those who profess no religious belief, could live in peace and mutual benefit

One wonders whether the debates might have included a few words about the threat posed by worldwide terrorism had it then existed.


Yes, what if the founding fathers knew, that some modern-day muskets could:

A) Shoot over 800 yards.
B) Firing ALOT of percised, musket balls.
C) Every Soldier got their musket....upgraded.
D) Do you REALLY think the King of England would have fucked with us in the War of Independence, with this 'artillery shell'? (Not really a musket, but, just fun to wonder)

Would the 2nd Amendment be worded to mean, 'for the individual', or for 'a Militia'? Constitutional scholars debate this issue frequently, as with many things that effect directly or indirectly with the US Consitutition.

I'm pretty sure, its a safe bet, the founding fathers had NO idea how technology would advance, fifty years from 1776, let alone in to 2010! Nor the scale, or types of problems that would come about, with each of the other nine amendments!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Polls are a red herring, they do not represent everyone, as the results of polls is only dependant on who and how many took the poll, which could be anything from one person through to millions of people, the use of percentages is therefore misleading and should not be taken with any substance of credibility.


I agree with you for the most part, as These guys rarily show a 'fair and balanced' poll. Then again, their audience isnt the type, typically, to question conservative media, but DO, question everyone else with near-paranoia. This Contest is as close to a poll, on a national level, as it gets for the United States of America.



Kirata -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:34:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

or to be damned to hell for all of eternity.

It does have the ring of domestic abuse doesn't it. Love me or I'll make you suffer.

The exchange about submission at least had a tie-in with the ongoing discussion. This doesn't.

K.



thishereboi -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:36:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have classes with Muslims, go to their political rallies, etc... they don't scare me.


Well I have never been to a rally, but I also have classes with them. Not sure why you mentioned the scary part. Did you think they would? They are people just like us, the only difference is their belief. What is so scary about that?



The post you replied to, the one in which I asked truckinslave if he knew any Muslims, well there was a reason why I asked him that question, because he seems very afraid of Muslims...

The question was not a general one to the entire board


Ah, ok, I wondered about that. Maybe his dad used to hit him with a towel when he was a kid. I have heard those things can really hurt when they are wet.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 11:52:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

or to be damned to hell for all of eternity.

It does have the ring of domestic abuse doesn't it. Love me or I'll make you suffer.

The exchange about submission at least had a tie-in with the ongoing discussion. This doesn't.

K.


It was a direct response to this.

Christians are not called upon to "submit" to God, nor are they called upon to "submit" to His laws...

They are called upon to love God, and to do His will because they love Him.

K.

Or was there supposed to be not comment on "God's love"?  Your saying that love me or I'll put you in a lake of fire for eternity is not a form of submission?



Musicmystery -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 12:01:03 PM)

Isn't "love me and follow me" a form of willing submission?

After all, to believe in a loving God and yet choose one's own will over God's would be pretty foolish.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 12:12:48 PM)

I always kinda saw it as a carrot and stick.  Love me and you can get to heaven (the carrot), or not and all of these bad things will happen to you (the stick).



jlf1961 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 12:26:44 PM)

[image]http://d.yimg.com/a/p/uc/20100813/largeimagecrmlu100813.gif[/image]

Makes about as much sense as protesting a mosque.



Vendaval -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 12:32:17 PM)

And lets not forget the 100's of divisions within the churches over interpretation of God's will and whether or not mankind has free will.



luckydawg -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 12:36:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

I always kinda saw it as a carrot and stick.  Love me and you can get to heaven (the carrot), or not and all of these bad things will happen to you (the stick).



Yes, your parents were horribly abusive when they told you not to touch a red hot stove or you would burn your hand.




And Free Will is a bedrock value of Islam, the same as Christianity.



AlwaysLisa -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 12:36:37 PM)

quote:

It seems to me the hype isnt coming from those that want to build the mosque, but those against it.


Depends on what hype your refering to.   If you mean the "discussions" involving Christianity vs Muslim, then yes, I agree.  

If, however,  you are talking about folks who are against the concept for the simple reason they have loved ones buried there...then no, they're voices are almost unheard.

I found this link, a memorial place of worship built in Hiroshima, after we dropped the bomb.   It is for ALL faiths.  
http://hiroshima.catholic.jp/~pcaph/cathedral/

There was opposition to this also...some from the Japanese, and some from our men who fought in that war.

Gene Tibbets, whose deceased father, Brig. Gen. Paul Tibbets, piloted the Enola Gay, said that the decision to attend the ceremony amounted to an unspoken apology,“It's making the Japanese look like they're the poor people, like they didn't do anything,” he told Fox News this week. “They hit Pearl Harbor, they struck us.  We didn't slaughter the Japanese. We stopped the war.”
 
Indeed, retired Army Air Corps Captain Theodore "Dutch" Van Kirk, the navigator of the Enola Gay and only still-surviving crew member, told the English Russian news channel RT, "The Japanese you know today are not the Japanese we fought during World War II." He said, "We had been in a long war, had been attacked by the Japanese, and the policy of the US government at that time was to subdue the nation of Japan."
 
I can understand the sentiment, however..then, it was a race of people, not their chosen faith and it wasn't a terrorist attack, we didn't make the first strike.  

In the current debate, you have multiple cultures that worship the same beliefs, and it is that label that people are using to define them with.   I don't agree with this, at all. 

I do however, feel the voices of people who lost family menbers should be heard.  I can't believe we are so callous to the remains of american citizens and  how it is affecting their families.   Whats next, bulldozing the head stones at Arlington Memorial Cemetary and telling everyone, "we are doing this to create world peace"?

In this country they have every right to erect a building of worship anywhere they can afford to pay the taxes and get a permit.  I think what people are objecting to is the rememberance of 9/11 being affiliated with it.  I can't speak for anyone who is making this a religious battle, as thats not my stance. :)


Oh, and politesub, the Oklahoma bombing was done by more then one crazed white man, :)   We grow em here too. 

Lisa
 
 
 





Lordandmaster -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/15/2010 12:42:57 PM)

Guys, this one is really pretty simple.

If America doesn't stand for religious freedom, what does it stand for?  "Religious freedom" doesn't mean "freedom to be a Christian."  Would people make this much of a fuss if someone wanted to build a church in Oklahoma City?

I don't know where everyone is getting the bizarre idea that America was founded as a Christian nation, but document after document proves that it wasn't.  The Treaty of Tripoli has been mentioned in this thread, but you really don't even need the Treaty of Tripoli; it's crystal clear in The Federalist that the Founding Fathers did not envision the United States of America as a Christian nation.  I'm sorry if The Federalist rains on your ideological parade, but there's no better guide to the thinking behind the Constitution.  So please, everyone, kindly let go of the bullshit that the Founding Fathers would have opposed this.

And unless you guys have any proof that the Muslim community trying to build this mosque has connections with terrorism, you're coming very close to the libel standard by continuously implying that they do.

I wish I could say "end of fucking story," but I know it won't be, because Fox News is going to keep inflaming useful idiots, and useful idiots are going to keep making themselves useful.



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