RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11

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taniatv -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 10:18:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: taniatv Freedom of Religion or in this case way to be insensitive. Not disputing their right to build just questioning their indifference to people's feelings. Muslims are people too and most of them have feelings of their own. I always get annoyed with people who think that their own special feelings are somehow superior to the worthless "feelings" of those they're arguing with. Am I high here or is this the worst case of putting words in one's mouth that I have read? Where did I say that muslims are not people or don't have feelings? Where did I say that juliaoceania's feelings are worthless and where have I come across that I think my feelings are somehow special and superior? I have acknowledged their right to practice their religion and for them to build a place of worship. I just questioned the location they chose. These people are not ignorant, they will know the decision to build the house in that place would upset a lot of people. Why there? Why there Elisabella? Yes I know they alreacy have a facility there but why expand it with all the bells and whistles. It appears also that the muslims in question might agree with my sentiment now anyway....... now, that they are lacking the funds to build, this sounds like shyster opportunism at it's worst if true. Why decide to build there in the first place?

jlf1961 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 10:22:58 PM)
Uh, what part of it is going to be a community center with a cooking school and basketball court and NOT a mosque has everyone failed to grasp? Add to that it is NOT visible from ground zero, unless you walk two blocks from one corner of the WTC site, or the fact there is a mosque four blocks from ground zero.

Hanscuff18 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 10:23:50 PM)
Far too few people mention freedom from religion. I also wonder what the native americans think about Mt Rushmore in their Black Hills. Wasn't the USS Maine considered to be an act of terrorism? (rhetorical question...please!!!)

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 10:30:56 PM)
quote: four blocks Five blocks And they have been using this site for years and no one complained about it

tazzygirl -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 10:34:11 PM)
The creation of Mount Rushmore is a story of struggle -- and to some, desecration. The Black Hills are sacred to the Lakota Sioux, the original occupants of the area when white settlers arrived. For some, the four presidents carved in the hill are not without negative symbolism. The Sioux have never had much luck dealing with white men. In the Treaty of 1868, the U.S. government promised the Sioux territory that included the Black Hills in perpetuity. Perpetuity lasted only until gold was found in the mountains and prospectors migrated there in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation. These events fit the pattern of the late nineteenth century, a time of nearly constant conflict between the American government and Plains Indians. At his second presidential inauguration in 1873, Ulysses S. Grant reflected the attitudes of many whites when he said he favored a humane course to bring Native Americans "under the benign influences of education and civilization. It is either this or war of extermination." Many of the land's original occupants did not choose to assimilate; for them war, was the only option. In 1927, with a history of turmoil as a background, a white man living in Connecticut came into the Black Hills and dynamited and drilled the faces of four white men onto Mount Rushmore. At the outset of the project, Gutzon Borglum had persuaded South Dakota state historian Doane Robinson the presidents would give the work national significance, rejecting Robinson's initial suggestion that the sculpture honor the West's greatest heroes, both Native Americans and pioneers. The insult of Rushmore to some Sioux is at least three-fold: 1. It was built on land the government took from them. 2. The Black Hills in particular are considered sacred ground. 3. The monument celebrates the European settlers who killed so many Native Americans and appropriated their land. To counter the white faces of Rushmore, in 1939 Sioux Chief Henry Standing Bear invited sculptor Korczak Ziolkowski, who worked briefly at Rushmore, to carve a memorial to the Sioux nation in the Black Hills. Perhaps wary of Borglum's troubles with financial administrators, Ziolkowski personally bought a mountain top with a granite ridge and financed the entire project privately. The statue, envisioned as a freestanding sculpture of the great Sioux chief Crazy Horse, will be much larger than any of the Rushmore figures. Korczak Ziolkowski died in 1982, but his family continues to work on this awesome undertaking; Crazy Horse's face was completed and dedicated in 1998. Although the subject of this work addresses one aspect of Rushmore's offenses, the land is still considered Sioux property, and the mountain that the Ziolkowskis are carving is still sacred. The Crazy Horse monument is not without its own dissenters and critics. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rushmore/peopleevents/p_sioux.html

pogo4pres -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 11:08:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania It is easy to say that you are for rights, it is really hard to actually put that into practice... which is why the Founders put it in the constitution. It isn't up for debate. Ya know what Julia... You are a very lucky woman that the overwhemling majority of lawmakers in the United States are Christian, even lip service Christans and Jews. If ever that changed to Islam, most of the people defending Muslim's rights on this thread would be stoned to death and/or imprisoned. FDD it isn't that it is Islam in those nations, it is because they are fucking THEOCRACIES. Theocracy defined as: a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler, or in a higher sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. For believers, theocracy is a form of government in which divine power governs an earthly human state, either in a personal incarnation or, more often, via religious institutional representatives (i.e., a church), replacing or dominating civil government. As long as this nation remains a "democratic-republic" or "constitutional republic", there should be no fear of Islam. Again the 1st amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Kind of rules out our becoming a theocratic nation, in the first place dude. Democratically, Some Knucklehead in NJ Edited for clarity

taniatv -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 11:24:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: four blocks Five blocks Six blocks

pogo4pres -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 11:28:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: taniatv quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: four blocks Five blocks Six blocks 16 Blocks Starring: Bruce Willis, Mos Def, David Morse. Theatrically, Some Knucklehead in NJ

taniatv -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/16/2010 11:30:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pogo4pres quote: ORIGINAL: taniatv quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: four blocks Five blocks Six blocks 16 Blocks Starring: Bruce Willis, Mos Def, David Morse. Theatrically, Some Knucklehead in NJ [;)]

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:50:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania It is easy to say that you are for rights, it is really hard to actually put that into practice... which is why the Founders put it in the constitution. It isn't up for debate. Ya know what Julia... You are a very lucky woman that the overwhemling majority of lawmakers in the United States are Christian, even lip service Christans and Jews. If ever that changed to Islam, most of the people defending Muslim's rights on this thread would be stoned to death and/or imprisoned. I missed this I do not think Freedom of Religion is negotiable. I feel lucky to live in a country that allows this. If I had my way our law makers wouldn't be religious at all, but they do get the freedom to choose, just like I do... isn't this country wonderful for that reason? BTW, I do not know if you are aware, but in Indonesia women aren't stoned to death, nor are they forced to wear modesty garments... but don't let little things like facts stand in the way of your bigotry

FatDomDaddy -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 3:39:10 AM)
Sure it is... if the States passed an amendment to to the Constitution, they have the ability to change any parts of the US Constitution they wish.

subrob1967 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 4:03:06 AM)
This is not a first amendment issue, no one is saying they can't build their Mosque/Cultural Center, they're asking the Imam to please respect the tragedy of the attack, and show a little compassion for the people who lost loved ones on 11 September. Is that really too much to ask for a bit of compassion from Muslims? The really funny thing is, the people defending the Mosque, are the same ones who attacked Ann Coulter for her 911 Widows comments way back when.

vincentML -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 4:28:26 AM)
quote: The creation of Mount Rushmore is a story of struggle -- and to some, desecration. The Black Hills are sacred to the Lakota Sioux, the original occupants of the area when white settlers arrived. For some, the four presidents carved in the hill are not without negative symbolism. The Sioux have never had much luck dealing with white men. In the Treaty of 1868, the U.S. government promised the Sioux territory that included the Black Hills in perpetuity. Perpetuity lasted only until gold was found in the mountains and prospectors migrated there in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation. Unfortunately for the Lakota Sioux there was "gold in them thar hills" and the U.S. Govt had more guns. Sad part of our history. But hey, Tazzy, don't confuse the Mosque-deniers with history. [8\|]

vincentML -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 4:30:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 This is not a first amendment issue, no one is saying they can't build their Mosque/Cultural Center, they're asking the Imam to please respect the tragedy of the attack, and show a little compassion for the people who lost loved ones on 11 September. Is that really too much to ask for a bit of compassion from Muslims? The really funny thing is, the people defending the Mosque, are the same ones who attacked Ann Coulter for her 911 Widows comments way back when. How funny is it that there are many Muslim families among "the people who lost loved ones on 11 September?"

vincentML -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 4:36:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Haha thanks hon <3 Even when I get bored with it I always come back. It's this weird blend of sadism and masochism I have. Perhaps there is just a tiny seed of emotional sadist in me? I would never have thought it...but... hmmmmm... perhaps.... OMG! I thought that was evident. [:)][:)][:)][sm=line.gif]

tazzygirl -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 4:39:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: The creation of Mount Rushmore is a story of struggle -- and to some, desecration. The Black Hills are sacred to the Lakota Sioux, the original occupants of the area when white settlers arrived. For some, the four presidents carved in the hill are not without negative symbolism. The Sioux have never had much luck dealing with white men. In the Treaty of 1868, the U.S. government promised the Sioux territory that included the Black Hills in perpetuity. Perpetuity lasted only until gold was found in the mountains and prospectors migrated there in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation. Unfortunately for the Lakota Sioux there was "gold in them thar hills" and the U.S. Govt had more guns. Sad part of our history. But hey, Tazzy, don't confuse the Mosque-deniers with history. [8\|] vincent, what the hell are you on about now??? i have not posted an opinion one way or the other on this issue. Someone asked a question and i supplied an answer to that question. you seem a bit put out over this issue. care to come clean as to why?

vincentML -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 4:43:17 AM)
Really, FDD? Many Christians consider it sacrilege to burn or otherwise destroy a cross. Klan Christians, however, states that it is not destroying the cross, but "lighting" it, as a symbol of the members' faith.[1] [edit] Scottish origins In Scotland, the fiery cross, known as the Crann Tara, was used as a declaration of war. The sight of it commanded all clan members to rally to the defense of the area. On other occasions, a small burning cross would be carried from town to town. The most recent known use was in 1745, during the Jacobite Rising[2] and was subsequently described in the novels and poetry of Walter Scott. Though some members of the Ku Klux Klan were descended from immigrants from Scotland, there is no evidence to suggest that their ancestors brought this tradition with them to America. And your authority for such a statement is ?????? Here is my source... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_burning

vincentML -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 4:51:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: The creation of Mount Rushmore is a story of struggle -- and to some, desecration. The Black Hills are sacred to the Lakota Sioux, the original occupants of the area when white settlers arrived. For some, the four presidents carved in the hill are not without negative symbolism. The Sioux have never had much luck dealing with white men. In the Treaty of 1868, the U.S. government promised the Sioux territory that included the Black Hills in perpetuity. Perpetuity lasted only until gold was found in the mountains and prospectors migrated there in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation. Unfortunately for the Lakota Sioux there was "gold in them thar hills" and the U.S. Govt had more guns. Sad part of our history. But hey, Tazzy, don't confuse the Mosque-deniers with history. [8\|] vincent, what the hell are you on about now??? i have not posted an opinion one way or the other on this issue. Someone asked a question and i supplied an answer to that question. you seem a bit put out over this issue. care to come clean as to why? Ahh, evidently I misunderstood your intent. Sorry, I thought you were giving an historical example of trampling on sacred ground as a "refutiation" of someone's argument for denying the Mosque. I am put out to see us quarreling over Constitutionally evident matters such as this and birthright citizenship which Pols are demogoging. Seems pretty ugly and sad to me, especially when many Muslims died in the Twin Towers. Our quarreling seems a slander against those victims. And our Pols seem contemptable. Just sayin...

tazzygirl -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 5:00:48 AM)
I dont agree with birthright citizenship... but thats not for this thread. I do believe we have far bigger and better things to discuss than where to build the next mosque. My personal opinion? Ask those directly affected by the event. I have no issue with it being built there. But its not my issue. I can see the benefits of such a place, i can also see the pain some may experience knowing how close its being built. Its time to let the healing begin.

StrangerThan -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 5:05:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The same arguments can be made in favor of embracing Christianity, and yet, what I mostly see is, attacks against it. Like, you know, digging up all the bad shit and posting it as prime examples of how Christians are, while on the other hand, puppet Z is saying embrace me because I am not that. Ignore the heads rolling and the car bombs. It is only the arse end of me that enjoys such. I'm laughing, because it is absurd. Edited to define the it in the statement above. It is absurd to defend religious freedom by attacking another. End of story. How have I attacked Christianity? I'm just reading your lists of intolerant assholes This is not the first time you have accused me of having positions I do not hold, and when asked to produce examples of where I have stated these positions, you post some non sequitor sort of nonsense because you can't... What "list" of assholes are you speaking of? The list of American Muslims that died in the attack on the World Trade Center? What did they do wrong to be called names by you? Edited to say, perhaps you mean the list of places where there were "intolerant assholes" protesting places of religious worship... You are the one that made the point that republicans were going to make out politically over the mosque controversy... my point is that it could fly the opposite way, that this could be painted as right wing intolerance towards Muslims... I do not see these protesters as representing "Christianity"... I see them as representing extremists. This is basically the point, there are extremists in any religion... And this is not the first time you side step the fucking issue. Read your own list of intolerant assholes, which is notably missing the intolerant assholes who send authors and painters into hiding, the intolerant assholes who riot across the globe slinging threats of violence and war when someone doesn't treat their book the way they want it treated, the intolerant assholes who last week murdered everyone but a muslim in an attack on health care givers. If you can't read your own lists, and understand this issue is bigger than you, goes beyond you, and believe that one religion is not attacked to support another, you're worse than an idiot. Hell, just go to the end of the thread and read vincents treatise. He;s all about cross burning now. Imagine the fucking eye roll. I'm quite alright with him burning a cross on his lawn and willing to bet it is the police who show up rather than a village full of baptists with pitchforks.

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