RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11

RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (Full Version)

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taniatv -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 11:37:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: It is truly a shame that many American muslims were hurt after 9-11 I have nothing but sympathy for those people. quote: Muslim-Americans were killed in the 9/11 towers crash. Many were rounded up off the streets and held captive afterwards. Yes I know, this was specifically in reference to a post I was quoting. quote: I also truly believe that the majority of these peaceful, law abiding muslims would not want the mosque built in the shadow of the WTC. quote: However sincere your belief may be you offer no knowledge of the truth of this statement, nor do you have any. It's a no brainer. I believe the majority of muslims in the US are law abiding peaceful citizens. Why would these people be in support of a project that is causing so much outrage and hurt. A peace loving muslim who wanted to build bridges would be against the building of this house. quote: If the people behind the expansion of cordoba house were truly all about the 'healing' and 'moving past 9-11' they would surely and without hesitation scrap the plans and consider another project at a later date when time itself had done the healing. quote: We do not do freedom of religion by your calender. Not in this nation. Is that the Royal we? Read what I said. I wasn't talking about this nation's policy on freedom of religion. I was talking about the decision by the people behind the expansion of cordoba house to build so soon after the atrocity, knowing that wounds haven't even begun to heal. quote: These people must see the hurt that this proposed building is causing in the NYC community, if they honestly want to conciliate relations then why is this house still an issue? quote: Because it has obviously been politicized by the likes of Newt Gingrich, et al. Politics? This has nothing to do with politics this is all about the feelings of the bereaved. quote: Also let me disclaim that before you throw further derogatory accusations - I am not talking about the peaceful law abiding muslim community in the US I am talking about the people behind the project, the former obviously have no say in the matter. quote: Willing to wager you have not discussed the matter with "the people behind the project." So, how the fuck do you know? How the 'fuck' do I know what? I know the people behind the project want to expand cordoba house and at this time. Everybody knows that. I know they didn't ask the American muslim community if they were for or against the plans because I am pretty dam sure the answer would have been in the vast majority of that community; against. quote: All of your statements, overflowing with certainty and so effusive with sympathy, are nothing but your unsubstantiated opinions. What makes you think my sympathy towards American muslim's is effusive? I have genuine sympathy for the peace loving section of that community who live not only here in the States but throughout the world. Their religion on some level has been hijacked by nutcases, why wouldn't anyone have genuine sympathy? Also what exactly have I wrote that is unsubstantiated. I clearly pointed out that it was my own personal beliefs that the majority of peaceful law abiding muslim citizens would be against the project. I followed that up by saying it is a no brainer, that's what I believe. What else is unsubstantiated or overflowing with certainty. Meh!

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 11:43:58 AM)
quote: Honestly, when the fuck did we begin voting in this country on constructing houses of worship? And why can't you make the connection between Islamic families who lost loved ones in 9/11 and their house of worship? Do only Christian and Jewish families have standing? Perhaps the Islamic families are afraid to voice their opinions for fear of reprisals in this hysterical political environment. Is it me, or is emotion the only debate point on the other side here? I say religious freedom, and someone else counters with "people are hurting", I say private property rights, and the other side counters with "911 families have the right to protest" Well yeah, they have the right to protest... but who was it that said, "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should". That is the problem with emotions, we all have them and we can all argue from them, but at the end of the day emotions are not going to determine our rights... nor should they. This is one of those rare instances that we have the OPPORTUNITY to actually stand up for our rights... because it is only when someone exercises their rights in an unpopular way that we can be sure that we have them. It is easy to say we have rights when no one is challenging them... I find things like this an assurance that our rights are real

GotSteel -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:16:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You know what, I am one of the most consistent posters on this board when it comes to tolerating all religions and beliefs. I have had those who were Atheists flame me for advocating for Christians... When you've been flamed by Atheists it's generally been because of your intolerance of their beliefs or positions.

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:19:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You know what, I am one of the most consistent posters on this board when it comes to tolerating all religions and beliefs. I have had those who were Atheists flame me for advocating for Christians... When you've been flamed by Atheists it's generally been because of your intolerance of their beliefs or positions. Not from my perspective...

StrangerThan -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:24:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: "We do not need to fear Islam, we need to embrace it, and take the arrows that extremists use to convince moderate Muslims to fear us" I did not mean we all need to go join a mosque by that statement. I meant we all need to embrace tolerating their religion... come on, seriously, are you THAT overcome by your own prejudices that you could not see the intention behind that statement? We need to embrace Islam as one of the many religions practiced in this country. We need to embrace that they have the right to build a place of worship anywhere they like if they own the property and it is zoned for it. We need to embrace Freedom of Religion. Many of your fellow Americans are Muslim. Walk on their rights, you are walking on your own. Edited to add, I am quickly finding you to be one of the more irrational and emotionally out of control posters on these boards... seriously And I'm quickly finding you to be like a slug squirming in its own ooze in this debate because you revert to vague references of tolerance every time your RIGHTS tact is blunted. Give me your definition of tolerance. Where does it go past allowing them to worship in peace, according them respect for their beliefs and giving them the same protections under the Constitution? Where does it accept violence from one but not from others? I'm just curious as to what tolerance really means to you and what constitutes intolerance because from what I see, intolerance seems to be not agreeing with you, not embracing. Tolerating doesn't seem to fit within the confines of tolerance.

GotSteel -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:28:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Not from my perspective... How so? Do you think your intolerance isn't what upsets them or do you consider yourself tolerant of atheist positions or do you think something else is going on?

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:37:09 PM)
quote: And I'm quickly finding you to be like a slug squirming in its own ooze in this debate because you revert to vague references of tolerance every time your RIGHTS tact is blunted. Give me your definition of tolerance. Where does it go past allowing them to worship in peace, according them respect for their beliefs and giving them the same protections under the Constitution? Where does it accept violence from one but not from others? I'm just curious as to what tolerance really means to you and what constitutes intolerance because from what I see, intolerance seems to be not agreeing with you, not embracing. Tolerating doesn't seem to fit within the confines of tolerance. I have said nothing wrong here, I keep repeating myself over and over again... Look up "tolerance" in the dictionary... tolerating something and accepting it are two different things. When I say I advocate for "tolerance", i am saying let people do what they are free to do in peace and leave them the fuck alone. Accepting them would be going over and having dinner with them and making friends with them and being buddy buddy with them... I don't expect you or anyone else to do that, although I have chosen to accept people who practice Islam the same way I accept Christians or Buddhists, or anyone else for that matter I think you are conflating again. There are several threads going on in this section right now, one of which is about nonMuslim extremists... perhaps in your mind the fact that thread exists means I am posting on it and having arguments about one form of violence being better than another. I don't know where this "violence" is coming from, or tolerating it or not tolerating it. I can't remember posting about other people being violent or not violent. Religion can be a force of peace or a force of violence, and in my study of the topic, it matters not what the faith is, but the socio-economic factors that exist around that religion that determines which religion is used to engender... I have academic sources about the topic if you care to read them

subrob1967 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:46:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Honestly, when the fuck did we begin voting in this country on constructing houses of worship? And why can't you make the connection between Islamic families who lost loved ones in 9/11 and their house of worship? Do only Christian and Jewish families have standing? Perhaps the Islamic families are afraid to voice their opinions for fear of reprisals in this hysterical political environment. Obviously not...http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38462 Again, this is a strawman argument, because no one has claimed Muslims did not die on 11 Sept. Julia says she saw ONE family in support of building, you say well maybe they're afraid to come out and support the center, and then go on a rant about voting and churches... Where did I say government should stop this? Or the people who are against this voted to have this stopped? This is not a question of legal rights, it's a question of morality, should the Imam take into account the emotional pain the building will cause? or should he just say, fuck you, I don't care if my Mosque is a slap in the face to all those who suffered? Please don't try to argue that it's not a slap in the face, because that's the main argument of those who oppose the building.

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:47:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Not from my perspective... How so? Do you think your intolerance isn't what upsets them or do you consider yourself tolerant of atheist positions or do you think something else is going on? Here is what I think of the topic, every time an atheist ridicules a belief in god to people who have a belief in god, they are showing a lack of tolerance. I posted a thread that wasn't a science thread, but a philosopical one about time and space, and what that means for life after death. Then came the waterfall of atheists that descended from on high to ridicule those who believe in god that wanted to post about that on this thread... I have seen this behavior on more than one occasion... You know what, you don't believe in god, i could care less. i do not have an emotional attachment to your soul or your lack of one.. whatever turns you on. But when you go from saying "I don't believe in God" to saying "I think people who do believe in god are less intelligent, illogical, and ignorant".. you cross a line from advocating for your view into attacking someone else for having a different one. If you can't see that, I can't help you

kdsub -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:50:04 PM)
So well said Juliaoceania Butch

StrangerThan -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 12:57:43 PM)
quote: When I say I advocate for "tolerance", i am saying let people do what they are free to do in peace and leave them the fuck alone. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: And I'm quickly finding you to be like a slug squirming in its own ooze in this debate because you revert to vague references of tolerance every time your RIGHTS tact is blunted. Give me your definition of tolerance. Where does it go past allowing them to worship in peace, according them respect for their beliefs and giving them the same protections under the Constitution? Where does it accept violence from one but not from others? I'm just curious as to what tolerance really means to you and what constitutes intolerance because from what I see, intolerance seems to be not agreeing with you, not embracing. Tolerating doesn't seem to fit within the confines of tolerance. I have said nothing wrong here, I keep repeating myself over and over again... Look up "tolerance" in the dictionary... tolerating something and accepting it are two different things. When I say I advocate for "tolerance", i am saying let people do what they are free to do in peace and leave them the fuck alone. Accepting them would be going over and having dinner with them and making friends with them and being buddy buddy with them... I don't expect you or anyone else to do that, although I have chosen to accept people who practice Islam the same way I accept Christians or Buddhists, or anyone else for that matter I think you are conflating again. There are several threads going on in this section right now, one of which is about nonMuslim extremists... perhaps in your mind the fact that thread exists means I am posting on it and having arguments about one form of violence being better than another. I don't know where this "violence" is coming from, or tolerating it or not tolerating it. I can't remember posting about other people being violent or not violent. Religion can be a force of peace or a force of violence, and in my study of the topic, it matters not what the faith is, but the socio-economic factors that exist around that religion that determines which religion is used to engender... I have academic sources about the topic if you care to read them Then we can agree that our definition of tolerance differs but probably has a common basis somewhere. I'll tolerate them, accord them their rights, and due respect as long as they don't expect me to bend over and kiss their ass in the process. That isn't directed specifically towards muslims. That's directed to anyone who has an agenda. But I do not see this topic as one of rights or religious intolerance. I see it as one of emotion more than anything. Obama was correct in both of his statements, the one indicating their right to do so, and the one stepping away from the wisdom of it. As far as the definition of tolerance, it might help if you post your personal definition before you start accusing anyone of being intolerant. Cause yeah, accepting in the sense of being buddy-buddy isn't something I'm going to make an effort to do.

Politesub53 -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 1:11:38 PM)
The evil done by the Cordoba initiative. So much for a "Victory Mosque" [8\|] http://www.cordobainitiative.org/recent_programs.html

GotSteel -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 1:14:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Here is what I think of the topic, every time an atheist ridicules a belief in god to people who have a belief in god, they are showing a lack of tolerance. Ok, I agree with that statement. I also think that every time you ridicule an atheist for doing that you're showing a lack of tolerance.

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 1:18:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Here is what I think of the topic, every time an atheist ridicules a belief in god to people who have a belief in god, they are showing a lack of tolerance. Ok, I agree with that statement. I also think that every time you ridicule an atheist for doing that you're showing a lack of tolerance. I don't want to derail this thread into your pet topic of discussion... it has nothing to do with this topic. You can think I am intolerant all you want because I don't like it when I see people denigrated for their faith. I just have a different idea of what tolerance is and what it isn't I also did not know the bedrock of atheism was to ridicule theists... shrugs

pogo4pres -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 1:49:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Here is what I think of the topic, every time an atheist ridicules a belief in god to people who have a belief in god, they are showing a lack of tolerance. Ok, I agree with that statement. I also think that every time you ridicule an atheist for doing that you're showing a lack of tolerance. I don't want to derail this thread into your pet topic of discussion... it has nothing to do with this topic. You can think I am intolerant all you want because I don't like it when I see people denigrated for their faith. I just have a different idea of what tolerance is and what it isn't I also did not know the bedrock of atheism was to ridicule theists... shrugs So Julia what do you think of my supposition that ALL RELIGION IS BULLSHIT. I attack no one for their belief, I do not deprive them of their right to worship, I just remind them I BELIEVE all religion is bullshit. Then I usually have to remind them that the "free exercise" clause also implies the the converse, FREEDOM FROM religion. Over all you are correct, in that this is the usual fucking fear mongering that the GOP does so well since the end of WWII. Fear is all they got. Staunchly, Some Knucklehead in NJ edited for spelling

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 1:57:11 PM)
quote: So Julia what do you think of my supposition that ALL RELIGION IS BULLSHIT. I attack no one for their belief, I do not deprive them of their right to worship, I just remind them I BELIEVE all religion is bullshit. Then I usually have to remind them that the "free exercise" clause also implies the the converse, FREEDOM FROM religion. Over all you are correct, in that this is the usual fucking fear mongering that the GOP does so well since the end of WWII. Fear is all they got. No, I think if you extend this statement: quote: ALL RELIGION IS BULLSHIT. Into: quote: ALL RELIGION IS BULLSHIT and religious people are ignorant, not as intelligent as atheists, and illogical Then you crossed the line.... I also think that if people are having a reasonable discussion about their religious beliefs and you interject yourself and call them stupid, ignorant, and illogical, you have again crossed a line. I imagine that my brothers think I am going to hell because I do not believe in the bible. It does not offend me that they believe this is so. It does offend me when they try to prove some point about life with the bible, and I say "I don't believe in the bible" and then they proceed to tell me they think I am going to hell... see the difference? (and yes, I am using a real life example of interactions with Christian members of my family)

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 2:22:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie You're all serious about this shit aren't you? Obama...no birth certificate, Muslim trying to get our country affixed on his gig....indoctrinating us all.... It's incredibly fucked up that we're allowing a Muslim church/worship place...etc. into what many would consider "holy ground"...but you know what.... I don't know either....but I think we have to stick to our values. (Not entirely sure what mine exactly are at all times but....) It's fucked up. Truly fucked up. On the other hand....I like things the way they are. (What the fuck do I know?) 1) It is a community center, NOT a mosque. 2) It is two blocks away from ground zero, in the former Burlington Coat Factory building. 3) There is already a mosque 4 blocks from ground zero, do you want that closed? 4) You really dont believe that birther, Obama is a secret Muslim conspiracy bullshit do you? No...but...I do have a picture of Clinton shaking hands with an alien....and don't think he was the last President to do that!

truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 2:44:21 PM)
quote: FDD it isn't that it is Islam in those nations, it is because they are fucking THEOCRACIES. Islam IS a theocracy.

truckinslave -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 2:57:39 PM)
quote: but in Indonesia women aren't stoned to death, nor are they forced to wear modesty garments Yet. There are any number of rights groups reporting on increasing religious intolerance (an absolute hallmark of Islam) in Indonesia. Incrementalism is a recent hallmark. Do you think the Taliban established ironclad control instantly? Indonesia is among my top half-dozen choices for the next real trouble spot.

juliaoceania -> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 (8/17/2010 3:02:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: but in Indonesia women aren't stoned to death, nor are they forced to wear modesty garments Yet. There are any number of rights groups reporting on increasing religious intolerance (an absolute hallmark of Islam) in Indonesia. Incrementalism is a recent hallmark. Do you think the Taliban established ironclad control instantly? Indonesia is among my top half-dozen choices for the next real trouble spot. This is not a "hallmark of Islam", it is a hallmark of people feeling as though their culture and religion are threatened....This is like saying because of the Inquisition and the Dark Ages of Christianity, that a hallmark of Christianity was subjugation of women, violence, and war... Like I said elsewhere, religious fundamentalism and violence have their roots in socio economics. To argue that a religion by itself is intrinsically violent is just propaganda that you have bought into.

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