Personal Rant...not the first time.... (Full Version)

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BoiJen -> Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 8:41:26 PM)

UGH!!!!!!!!

I know, for some of you, you're tired of this rant from me. I'm sorry to bore you. Please, move on if you're uninterested in having a conversation about this.

In Feb, while at SPLF, Ma'am and I were discussing the word "boi" and why I have a problem with the word being expanded to include het males on any level. Other than a complete lack of creativity on the perpetrator's part, it's an identity thing.

Dykes had to come up with this word because no other word existed to describe what was being communicated with "boi". To expand that definition is like expanding the definition of "het" to mean "heteroflexible" (coward shit) because someone doesn't want to own up to being "bi". It takes away the value of being "different" and the struggles and accomplishments associated with that difference. Words are powerful and by and far the majority of our means, as a species, to communicate with one another.

Let's run with the bi thing for a second. Bi folks often have it doubly damned cuz the straight folks what you to make up your damned mind and the gay folks feel like being "bi" weakens the "fight". To be "heteroflexible" negates the struggle that bi folks go through in not only establishing their own sexuality with themselves and others, it undermines the struggles of being taken seriously from the rest of the world. It's a fuckin issue. I gotta tell you, if some of the bi folks I know (with principles) could just be "heteroflexible" and not have to deal with the shit they deal with cuz het society would accept them, they would. But it's not that easy when you have principles and words define us to the outside world.

And that's what it comes down to. To our friends and (sometimes) our families, words don't actually define us. But to the outside world, to strangers, to politicians making our laws and giving or taking away our rights, words DO define us.

I think the other part of my problem with guys using the word "boi" is the whole het male encroachment upon my world. It's like, "Fuck you man, this is who I am all the fuckin time, not just when I wanna dress up in panties cuz it gets me off. And when you're done being a 'boi' you go back to being a 'man' and the world is good with you. I don't get to go back to anything. I'm a boi all the fuckin time. Fuckin poser!"

I know boi-rage isn't really neat or even fun to be around. It sucks. But damn...how do you keep these boundaries and get any kind of respect when being "you" no longer means being YOU?

Stream of consciousness boi



juliaoceania -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 8:50:40 PM)

quote:

To expand that definition is like expanding the definition of "het" to mean "heteroflexible" (coward shit) because someone doesn't want to own up to being "bi"


This is the first portion of my problem with your rant, because I would never claim to be bi, not because I am a "coward", but because I would never have a romantic relationship with a woman. To me bisexual means more than who one gets it on with, it is a relationship orientation. I may have sex with a woman under the right circumstances (a man would have to be present for me to get off on it), and that makes me actually "hetroflexible"... It is a label that has a meaning to those who use it, just like your "boi" one does.


quote:

I think the other part of my problem with guys using the word "boi" is the whole het male encroachment upon my world. It's like, "Fuck you man, this is who I am all the fuckin time, not just when I wanna dress up in panties cuz it gets me off. And when you're done being a 'boi' you go back to being a 'man' and the world is good with you. I don't get to go back to anything. I'm a boi all the fuckin time. Fuckin poser!"

I know boi-rage isn't really neat or even fun to be around. It sucks. But damn...how do you keep these boundaries and get any kind of respect when being "you" no longer means being YOU?



By not allowing a word to completely encompass your existence. What others do or do not do has really no importance on your life, really



Rule -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 8:51:16 PM)

Uh...



BoiJen -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:01:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

This is the first portion of my problem with your rant, because I would never claim to be bi, not because I am a "coward", but because I would never have a romantic relationship with a woman. To me bisexual means more than who one gets it on with, it is a relationship orientation. I may have sex with a woman under the right circumstances (a man would have to be present for me to get off on it), and that makes me actually "hetroflexible"... It is a label that has a meaning to those who use it, just like your "boi" one does.


Justify it all you want but sexuality is made up of two things: your parts and the parts of the people you have sex with. Relationships bring in a whole 'nother level of stuff.

For example: there's a reason "asexual" folks can have romantic relationships and still be considered, by definition, "asexual". They're not defined as being "het" or "bi" or "gay" because of who they're in a relationship with, "asexual" is defined by not having sex.

Why is coming out as "bi" a such a threat to your het privilege?

To make the case: here's the definition of "bisexual".... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=WYr&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&defl=en&q=define:bisexual&sa=X&ei=v7doTLy_L8GC8gahk-i2BA&ved=0CBIQkAE

  • sexually attracted to both sexes
  • having an ambiguous sexual identity

    boi



    • KyttynTheMynx -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:05:38 PM)

    I have never let the words other people say cause me to not be me. I know who and what I am. If someone wants to take a phrase that pertains to me and give it a new meaning, by all means. Go for it. I may even do some creative brainstorming and give ya a hand. It doesnt mean I am any more or less Kyttyn.




    juliaoceania -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:09:09 PM)

    quote:

    Why is coming out as "bi" a such a threat to your het privilege?


    I have never had sex with a woman. I would only have sex with a woman for the pleasure of a dominant man in some future scenario that may never happen. I am not "turned off" by the prospect, but I will get graphic.. it does not make me wet or hot, and I never masturbate to the idea....

    Because I am willing to perform a sex act does not make me "bi". Hell, in my reality it makes me more desirable to pretend I am hot to lick a pussy... but that aint the truth of the matter, so why lie about my orientation?

    In my mind claiming a bi orientation means more than a sex act. It means at least fantasizing about it[8|]



    BoiJen -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:10:36 PM)

    All I'm saying is that it's called "sexual orientation" not "romantic/relationship orientation" for a reason.

    boi



    juliaoceania -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:11:20 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: BoiJen

    All I'm saying is that it's called "sexual orientation" not "romantic/relationship orientation" for a reason.

    boi



    Hmmmm,... that is debated heavily, and you know it



    BoiJen -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:11:53 PM)

    Please cite.

    sexual orientationn. The direction of one's sexual interest toward members of the same, opposite, or both sexes, especially a direction seen to be dictated by physiologic rather than sociologic forces. Replaces sexual preference in most contemporary uses.

    http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+orientation




    juliaoceania -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:23:29 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: BoiJen

    Please cite.

    sexual orientationn. The direction of one's sexual interest toward members of the same, opposite, or both sexes, especially a direction seen to be dictated by physiologic rather than sociologic forces. Replaces sexual preference in most contemporary uses.

    http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+orientation




    I will find some references when my classes start this fall... some really heavy duty anthropological identity ones... you will not be disappointed...

    For you to claim that everyone in the LGBT community has the same understandings, definitions, and approach to gender, sexuality, identity, and labels seems to be highly disingenuous to me... I find it hard to believe you would not be familiar with the debates within your own community when I am familiar with them from a casual bystander point of view. I have read of these debates, and listened in on a few.

    Here is the deal, and I am sure you are well aware, some people feel as though to adopt a certain label would not be descriptive enough of who they are as a human being, so they make alternative labels up. Your "boi" is a perfect example of a made up label to describe who you are... for you to say others are "cowardly" because they do not feel the label of "bi" describes them is a bit hypocritical in the same damn thread where you are ranting about your own made up label... seriously...

    The immediate thing that comes to mind when I hear the word "hetroflexible" is that this person would do a sex act but not engage in a relationship with the same sex.... it is a label that helps them communicate their orientation in a more efficient manner, you have trouble with that? Too bad



    thishereboi -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:43:22 PM)

    I just got a cmail from a male sub in LA asking if I was interested in him serving me. When I asked what in my profile made him think I might, he replied "well you have boi in your screenname, so I thought you wanted one"

    Just gotta love the way some people's minds work[8D]




    thishereboi -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:49:24 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

    quote:

    Why is coming out as "bi" a such a threat to your het privilege?


    I have never had sex with a woman. I would only have sex with a woman for the pleasure of a dominant man in some future scenario that may never happen. I am not "turned off" by the prospect, but I will get graphic.. it does not make me wet or hot, and I never masturbate to the idea....

    Because I am willing to perform a sex act does not make me "bi". Hell, in my reality it makes me more desirable to pretend I am hot to lick a pussy... but that aint the truth of the matter, so why lie about my orientation?

    In my mind claiming a bi orientation means more than a sex act. It means at least fantasizing about it[8|]


    If you are not sexually attracted to women, then I would say you are heterosexual. Having sex with one to please your boyfriend wouldn't change that. I know gays who have slept with members of the opposite sex in order to prove to themselves or others that they were "normal".  Didn't make them straight either.



    Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:53:44 PM)

    Forgive me for derailing your original point, but I don't think calling yourself hetero flexible is cowards shit, or afraid of owning up to being bi. I am bi sexual, but I feel by saying I am bi sexual that it perhaps can give the impression I like all women equally, and I don;t.

    I am in fact, 99.999999999 percent strait, when it comes to who I want to date romantically, live my life with build a family, ect ect. However sexually and sexual attraction I like women, however if it came down to  picking one or the other , it'll always be men.

    So if I didn't think the term hetero flexibe was silly, that's what I'd call myself.

    Or conditionally bisexual, since there are conditions on my interest in women, such as not wanting them for life partners.


    But, we now return you back to your original topic.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: BoiJen



    To expand that definition is like expanding the definition of "het" to mean "heteroflexible" (coward shit) because someone doesn't want to own up to being "bi".



    CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 9:55:50 PM)

    quote:

    In Feb, while at SPLF, Ma'am and I were discussing the word "boi" and why I have a problem with the word being expanded to include het males on any level. Other than a complete lack of creativity on the perpetrator's part, it's an identity thing.

    I'm glad you brought this up because I thought I knew what boi meant, but all of a sudden I've been seeing guys using it.  Google and I kinda hate each other, so I waited for this to be talked about in the message boards.  I didn't want to go through search either.  Someday, I probably would have looked it up.
     
    I'm curious about this...what is the point of men highjacking this?  Is it because the word "boi" looks kinda cute?  Are they trying to snatch the name up to describe something different about themselves? 
     
    I do get what you're saying, as much as it is possible for me to do so.  Now where do I go to for a good definition of the word "boi"? 
     
    I have a monster of a headache right now, so I'm not absorbing information as well as I normally do.  For those of you who came out instead of hiding behind "normal" I know you've had a hard row to hoe and deserve to keep your definitions unmolested.  My nephew was encouraged to come out in jr. high and spent the rest of his school days getting his butt kicked...it was hard.  I've had bi and gay female friends in the past who were "out", but nobody was a "boi" so my education is lacking.  You're the only one who is taking the trouble to educate me on this and I appreciate hearing you spell it out.
     
    quote:

    But to the outside world, to strangers, to politicians making our laws and giving or taking away our rights, words DO define us.

    I am so glad I'm het.  I am so glad my son and my niece are heterosexual.  We have a lot of gays in our family tree and every last one of them has had a very hard time.  Not from friends or family, usually (my sister's husband reacted very badly), but from others.
     
    I still think it's unfair to let hets marry, divorce, marry, divorce, marry, divorce, marry, divorce (had to do it 4 times for my aunt), and yet not allow legal unions between gay couples in most states.
     
    I can see it is hard to be a boi, and I'm not going to like seeing males claim that title.
     
    <headache bad...stopping typing g-o-o-d>
     
    BoiJen, I enjoy your posts...even your rants.



    littlewonder -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 10:00:57 PM)

    I see people use the term "slave" to mean something that it isn't. Does it bother me? Not really. I just find it funny or shrug it off. Why let it bother me? I know who and what I am and that's all that matters.

    Why let what others label themselves as infringe on your life? Just doesn't seem like a big deal to me at all.

    If you're comfortable with yourself then imo that's all that matters. Then again I don't really care what others do or say until it affects me personally in some way.



    BKSir -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 10:04:06 PM)

    Damnit... You have to start this thread as I'm heading to bed, don't you? I'll be back tomorrow to check in and opine. Until then, please play nice. :)



    juliaoceania -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 10:08:04 PM)

    quote:

    If you are not sexually attracted to women, then I would say you are heterosexual. Having sex with one to please your boyfriend wouldn't change that. I know gays who have slept with members of the opposite sex in order to prove to themselves or others that they were "normal".  Didn't make them straight either.


    I did not say I had zero sexual attraction to women. I have become aroused by watching lesbian porn. I love to draw women. I think women are beautiful...but in my noggin it isn't hot unless a man can watch me. I never fantasize about it on my own, although I have had some hot flashes talking about doing it with my partner. This means I am more aroused by a man watching me do it than by the action itself. This is the core of what I feel is submissive about me, things that make me hot with a dom don't have the same punch when I am flying solo.

    I am secure about my sexuality, and not cowardly about it at all. It is kinda offensive to me that I would be labeled a coward because I prefer a more descriptive label... but, whatever



    Elisabella -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/15/2010 10:59:43 PM)

    quote:

    I gotta tell you, if some of the bi folks I know (with principles) could just be "heteroflexible" and not have to deal with the shit they deal with cuz het society would accept them, they would.


    Well the reason they can't just do that is because they are two different orientations, if you wouldn't try to convince a bi person to identify as heteroflexible why would you expect it to be so easy to go the other way?



    BoiJen -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/16/2010 4:08:08 AM)

    I'm responding to multiple things....

    Firstly, if there's any discussion in the LGB community of what "sexual orientation" means it's about making sure the term is accurate to the community. Like how "sexual preference" was replaced by "sexual orientation" because it's a more accurate term. Not about what "bisexual" means. Any discussion of that is purely social and not any movement to get the word to mean anything else. Primarily because there is no scientific or psychological need to change the definition of the word. It is accurate in it's most accepted and widely shared definition, previously shared on this thread.

    Second, are there REALLY folks who think that "bisexual" means being sexually attracted to ALL individuals of either sex? Just cuz you don't want to get it on with everyone of the same sex doesn't make someone "less gay"; same for being het. If a het male isn't attracted to ALL females, does that make him not "het"? "Conditional bisexuality" or "heteroflexible" is still a cop out. Justify it all you want but if you find yourself attracted to some individuals of either sex, you're bi. That's what the word means.

    Finally, every time orfunboi says "say 'hi' to her for me and give her a hug" I get her at the door with a HUGE hug and tell her. Her response is "What I don't get one from you?" I tell her if having rigorous sex was how orfunboi said "hi" to her, I might feel a little funny about it. ;-)

    boi



    DesFIP -> RE: Personal Rant...not the first time.... (8/16/2010 4:15:21 AM)

    Go ahead and stomp your feet. But language is flexible and changes, and has changed to include other meanings to the word boi whether you like it or not.

    And I think Otter would be insulted that you believe he uses this just when he wants to get off wearing panties and that it isn't a valid and effective way for him to describe himself.



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