RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (Full Version)

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truckinslave -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 7:44:14 AM)

quote:

There really is no comparison to that and a large concentrated amount dumped into a smaller area quickly.


Absolutely right. Until/unless it disperses, of course.




Moonhead -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field say (8/18/2010 7:46:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

trucknslave all defend that company as if they were the CEO's


Huh?

BP is utterly responsible, and not just for the pollution but, quite possibly, for the loss of life on the rig.

I just don't want to see American oil production shut down.

The loss of life was more Transocean than BP by most accounts.
Haliburton hardly seem blameless on that account either, come to that.




Archer -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 7:48:47 AM)

Wish I had seen the original because here Sanity you are showing a real ignorance level.

You're trying to argue the specifics of oil pollution in water with someone who consults for Oil Companies on oil pollution in groundwater and soil for a living. Maybe you should open your mind to the possibilities that your information source is lacking, that your example graphic is faulty beyond belief.

I'm not an over the edge environmentalist looking to crucify BP or overstate the case to run them out of business.






Moonhead -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field say (8/18/2010 7:56:07 AM)

I do wonder how this whole kerfuffle would have panned out if it had been a rig run by an American sounding company (rather than an American company that used to be a British company) that had blowed up. The Kenyan's press frenzy might have been a bit less jingoistic sounding, I suspect.




Sanity -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 8:14:00 AM)


Why dont you enlighten us Archer, and prove how any of the specifics that I have laid out are faulty.

Are you trying to claim that there was more oil than I represented? Are you trying to claim that light sweet crude doesnt break down in environments such as the Gulf of Mexico? Are you trying to claim oil doesnt exist there naturally? Are you trying to claim that the Gulf waters dont mix and disperse with the global oceanic currents?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Wish I had seen the original because here Sanity you are showing a real ignorance level.

You're trying to argue the specifics of oil pollution in water with someone who consults for Oil Companies on oil pollution in groundwater and soil for a living. Maybe you should open your mind to the possibilities that your information source is lacking, that your example graphic is faulty beyond belief.

I'm not an over the edge environmentalist looking to crucify BP or overstate the case to run them out of business.







Musicmystery -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 8:30:17 AM)

Wow. Just wow.

I'll bet that dead wildlife isn't even really dead. Probably just faking it.

Landlubbers have trouble conceiving the reality of depth in an ocean environment. That's going to be the issue.

We know what the Alaska spill did. This one is far larger, with the added factor of large scale addition of chemicals. No one knows what the long term effects of this will be. But that it's so insignificant ignores reality.

At the very least, it's interesting to see you turn to CBS for your data. Quite a switch.




MasterCord -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 8:33:53 AM)

For what it's worth....several of my clients' vessels are operating in the Gulf, not related to the spill. They are transiting the spill site and beyond, moving petroleum and chem products cross-Gulf. Many of the boats have raw water machinery cooling systems. In such a system, the cooling water circulating through the main engines, or generator engines, or air conditioning chllers, etc. is fresh water operating in a closed loop - just like the cooling water in your car engine.

Your car engine circulates that water through your radiator to cool it after it removes heat from your engine. The radiator allows the hot water to be cooled by the ambient air passing through the radiator. Because the air passing over the radiator core is cooler than the water returning from your engine, it cools the water as the water passes through the radiator's many water passages that expose the water to the cool air on the other side. Therefore your radiator, is what is known as a "heat exchanger".

Because the horspower of our main engines and other equipment, radiators to cool that volume of cooling water are impractical. So we use different types of heat exchangers. Sometimes we use what are known as keel coolers of various kinds. But high horsepower engines are generally cooled by what we refer to as a "raw water" or "central" type cooling system. In this type of system, the engine has, just like your car, a closed cooling circuit that circulates fresh water through the engine jacket water and aftercooler circuits, to heat exchangers located in the engine room. Unlike a radiator however, the heat xchanger (plate or tube-and-shell type) relies on the hot fresh water returning from the engine, to flow past sea water on the other side of the surface the fresh water is circulating through. In other words, the hot water in essence passes through a pipe, and that pipe in turn is inside another pipe - with colder sea water passing by going the opposite way between the two pipes. The sea water in the space between the two pipes which is colder, removes the heat from the fresh water inside the smaller pipe. The fresh water returns to the engine cooled now, the salt water returns overboard to the sea at a slightly higher temperature.

That whole explanation is designed to help understand what I'm going to offer about the spill. Over thime, the engineers on these boats have been checking the interiors of the heat exchangers on their vessels, checking the salt water side for evidence of oil that was pulled in with sea water, and cleaning the heat exchangers when it is found because the oil reduces the effectiveness of the heat exchanger. some have installed oil content monitors in the inlet side of the sea water pumps that feed the heat exchangers and these detectors are able to detect oil in concentrations as low as 5 PPM (parts-per-million).  The bottom line is that over time the oil content of the sea water has been declining to the point where there is demonstrably little - or even no oil  - in the sea water, in many places where it "should" be or has been in the recent past, or was predicted by movement models, to be headed. The sea water is pulled into the boats via high sea chests (....perhaps 7 feet below the water surface) and low sea chests (...as deep as 25 feet below the surface), and the vessels are transiting the Gulf pretty much all over the place, and have operated around the Florida Straits, and northeast into the Gulf Stream. Where oil is still being found in the water, I'm told the PPM is lower and lower over time. The reality is the oil is dispersing in some locations previously inundated with it to the point where it is becoming harder to even detect - let alone see.  Of course we see a part of the water column only 25 feet deep....but that is where many predicted the oil would collect.

Even give the size of the spill, it is a microscopic amount of oil compared to the volume of sea water in the Gulf alone, (...there is scientific evidence the Gulf leaches that much oil a year naturally...see below...) let alone in the world's oceans. This is why it is dispersing as it is. I don't blame people for being pissed this happened - and increasingly it is obvious that it was 100% preventable. Thankfully, the permanent damage may well not to be anywhere as near catastrophic as many people believe. The worst damage occurs when the oil gets ashore which of course has no efficient way to disperse the oil or break it up in any quick timeframe.

But a lot of things spew into the oceans every day. Here are a few to learn about for those who are interested....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent

...and something that may well open a few eyes...this is from a National Research Council report.....

"Scientists don’t know yet exactly which bacterial species are present in these plumes. The Gulf has a “leaky” seafloor, populated with natural seeps that discharge between 560,000 to 1.4 million barrels of crude oil every year, according to “Oil in the Sea III,” a 2003 National Research Council report on oil spills. Also hydrocarbons in general are ubiquitous in the ocean and can be found not only in seeping oil but also in plant waxes and lobster shells. Many marine bacteria have evolved to consume these hydrocarbons, and now the spill has allowed these bacteria to follow their food beyond their natural habitat near oil seeps at the bottom of the Gulf."
 
A link to the story.... and a very interesting scientific analysis of the issues.....

http://www.oceanleadership.org/2010/microbes-to-the-rescue/

Just offering some fact-based input...

MC




Sanity -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 8:34:07 AM)


Actual data though, vs the standard obfuscation, personal attacks, red herrings and strawman fare we still see here at  times despite the latest stab at moderation.




Archer -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 8:42:29 AM)

OK I'll bite as I already have Mr Sanity.

No I did not question your volume of oil spilled I did however try to enlighten your mind to the facts about how much water is contaminated by just one gallon of oil
But you ignored that completely because it didn't fit into your canned regurgitated fact sheets.

Light Sweet crude does break down but not as fully as you intimate with your light sweet treatment of the subject matter.
First off "Sweet" has little to do with evaporation or breakdown in water as it relates to sulpher content. But since Sulfer is water soluble what sulpher levels there are will result in acidic shifts localized to the contacted water. dilution will occure
"Light" means lots of fuel level fractions: diesel, kerosene, heating oil and gasoline etc not all of which evaporate quickly, although most do evaporate. However solubility becomes an issue here as well that you ignored completely in your short treatment attempts to understate the impacts. And as you may or may not have knowledge of disolved volitiles don't evaporate the same way or at the same rate as free product volatiles.

Additionally you IGNORE the fact that light means LESS heavies not No Heavies, and you ignore the fact that the lights and the fractions that evaporate do not make up the entire part of Oil that produces toxins in water. In other words many of the carcinogens in oil don't evaporate at all EVER.

Again using your numbers and expanding them to include the potential total gallons of water contaminated to the point where it will that is WILL not may have health effects of fish and other life swimming through it breathing it through their gills. 11, Trillion Gallons (that is one in 60,000 gallons in the gulf) adjust your graphic for those numbers as I suggested earlier. Oh Wait I bet that was just a C&P graphic and thus not something you can do.

Someone with a graphics background want to adjust it.

Oil does not enter the gulf through seeps at the same concentrated rate that it did from the spill. The Spill is similar to an overdose situation here.
400 mg a day over a year of Motrin isn't likely to kill you, however take that same 146,000 mg all at once and it certainly will.

Will the gulf recover, I have no doubt it will.




Musicmystery -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 8:43:55 AM)

I think you're overly sensitive.

I don't see any personal attacks. I do see conclusions being sharply questioned. And that's entirely appropriate.

Nor do I see any fallacies. People are discussing the severity based on available data. They disagree. That'll happen.




Archer -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:15:58 AM)

Master Cord, the question shifts over time as to what one needs to be measuring to determine how quickly the contaminants are breaking down.

Oil down to 5 ppm that'
s great, glad it is breaking down more quickly than expected however oil as oil is not the only concern I am looking at here. At anything over 5 ppb benzene disolved in water is considered a health hazard. Benzene is a breakdown component of an oil spill. So if Oil is at 5 ppm then what would we expect benzene levels in that water to be? Something on the order of 10,000 ppb is the expected benzene concentration in groundwater for wells containing any Free Product Petroleum. I would expect a slightly lower concentration in sea water based on surface area exposed to air.

Don't get me wrong I hope and pray that the impact is less than it could be, I am always impressed with nature's ability to set back right the things we screw up. Nature is a powerful force and does things we can't imagine. I have no doubt that things are dispersing and that when they get to the point where they are fully mixed and uniformly dispersed through the entire ocean the concentrations will be low enough to not be a big deal. However I have seen the video footage of the emulsified oil suspended sub surface taken in the gulf. Oil emulsion slicks that don't seem to be breaking up and dispersing as well as the reports indicate.

The workers are doing a fine job, I have few complaints about that aspect of the efforts, it's a job from hell to be working ( I quit doing Oil Spill Response many years ago last spill I worked was Duncan Oklahoma, 50,000 barrel storage tank explosion back in about 1997) My aversion to dispersants in general is based on the fact that free product is easier to remove from slicks than it is from emulsions where the dispersants have partially broken it down. And that emulsions sometimes tend to go into hiding only to pop up elsewhere.




rulemylife -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:20:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Your first clue should have been the source because "Truthout" is about as Orwellian a name for an organization as there is!

"Truthout" is all about spewing leftist propaganda and lies. Why do they lie? As if its really a mystery - they lie to try to further their political goals. Happily though, in this the Internet age, intelligent people are able to see through them and know them for what they are.

Something thats amusing about this whole blowout aftermath is the way so many of you on the far left are gasping for oil...

You want your oil, you DEMAND your oil in the gulf and the fact that its just not there angers you.

While you would like everyone to believe that your concern here is with the environment, its apparent that the only thing the far left really cares about in this instance is sabotaging our collective ability to enjoy the various fruits of inexpensive and abundant energy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
As the sign asks, why would they lie?

Do they have anything to benefit by claiming oil is there when it is not?

Does BP have anything to benefit by claiming oil is not there?





That was a wonderful rant Sanity and I hope you enjoyed it.

But it did not answer my question why these fishermen would be lying.




THELADY -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:27:23 AM)

sounds like a rag sheet report.
as said by others, in this day of cell phone camara/recorders no one took pics?? no one took samples?

will the left believe ANYTHING they read, so long as it is written by the left?

reminds me of the "racial slurs" thrown at the black cacus that walked thru the tea party crowd in D.C....they were video taping the walk thru, hundreds of tea party goers were taping it, the news was taping it, but noone has a video of any racial slurs......
hummmm.....
someone offered 100 thoudsand for a copy or any proof of racial slurs, no one comes forward to collect? lol because it didn't happen!

amazing




?




truckinslave -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:31:33 AM)

quote:

But it did not answer my question why these fishermen would be lying.

Perhaps he didn't do so because I did:

Who knows? The first possibilities that pop into my mind:

1. Publicity
2. Revenge
3. Work on a BP-funded cleanup boat
3. Increase the strength of some claim against BP.

Why wouldn't they take/post pictures?????


Well, that and the fact that I'm the one you asked. [:D]




Sanity -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:35:37 AM)


[:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think you're overly sensitive.

I don't see any personal attacks....




cuckoldmepls -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:44:40 AM)

You might be interested to know that Obama claiming the Gulf was safe to swim in by making it look like he was swimming in it himself was actually staged in a non polluted area.




Musicmystery -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:48:43 AM)

Still it's interesting to see Sanity and Obama agreeing on something.





cuckoldmepls -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:52:03 AM)

Well I definitely have to oppose conservatives on 'deep' water drilling. They proved quite successfully that they don't have the proper technology yet to ensure that a disaster won't happen again. Maybe in 20 years, they will have the technology but for now, all new 'deep' water drilling should be stopped.




flcouple2009 -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:52:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCord


The sea water is pulled into the boats via high sea chests (....perhaps 7 feet below the water surface) and low sea chests (...as deep as 25 feet below the surface), and the vessels are transiting the Gulf pretty much all over the place, and have operated around the Florida Straits, and northeast into the Gulf Stream. Where oil is still being found in the water, I'm told the PPM is lower and lower over time. The reality is the oil is dispersing in some locations previously inundated with it to the point where it is becoming harder to even detect - let alone see.  Of course we see a part of the water column only 25 feet deep....but that is where many predicted the oil would collect.


So what your actually saying is you took the long way to say you know nothing about anything below 25 feet.  

The basically 500,000 to 1.5 million gallons per year estimate of what leaks in the ENTIRE gulf PER YEAR is much different that the estimated (depending on what set of estimates you use) 200,000 to 2.5 million gallons PER DAY in a SPECIFIC area of the gulf.





rulemylife -> RE: Purple looking jelly stuff, three feet thick, floating all over, as wide as a football field says (8/18/2010 9:59:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

trucknslave all defend that company as if they were the CEO's


Huh?

BP is utterly responsible, and not just for the pollution but, quite possibly, for the loss of life on the rig.

I just don't want to see American oil production shut down.


It never has been shut down.  The moratorium was on new drilling, not existing wells.

Considering the lack of planning to contain what just happened it seems prudent.

BP and the other oil companies thought the likelihood of such an event was so remote they never planned how they would manage it.

Oops!




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