DelightMachine
Posts: 652
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline
|
meatcleaver indicates he's proud of his ability to spew out arguments to attack anyone's patriotism. It's one thing to spew out an argument, another to construct one that actually rests on facts and reality.
quote:
ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
quote:
ORIGINAL: DelightMachine
I can think of plenty. Just in the 20th century: Germany, the Soviet Union, Afghanistan (terrorism and heroin), Colombia, Saudi Arabia (terrorism, intolerance, and especially gas prices, especially as they affected the Third World), Iran (the Iran-Iraq war, support for terrorism, support for higher gas prices), Iraq (same reasons -- Iraq started the war, both sides kept it going), Japan (World War II), North Vietnam (bringing tyranny to South Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos), China (supporting dictators wherever they have oil or other raw materials to sell to China, supporting left-wing militants), East Germany (for acting like a cat's paw of the Soviet Union), North Korea (for starting the Korean war), Italy (World War II), and Cuba (for supporting revolutionaries in many places who either did set up dictatorships or wanted to).
You say that the U.S. has been "plenty beneficial to many people outside its borders" but one of the most "detrimental" to people as well.
In this and in your other posts, you emphasize the detrimental over the beneficial. You're also very vague.
So I've got three questions for you:
1. What have been the major ways the U.S. has been beneficial to the rest of the world?
2. What have been the major ways the U.S. has harmed the rest of the world?
3. Please show how the harm done by the U.S. has been worse than the benefits the U.S. has given the world. Or how the harm has equaled the benefits. Or how the harm has come close to the benefits.
I don't think the facts are with you, but I'd be interested to hear how you come to your conclusions.
I completely agree with your statement that "it's not all black and white."
Germany, you are right.
[SNIP] ... Outside its borders the USSR was no more guilty than the USA in the cold war.
The Soviet Union invaded nations and set up oppressive regimes over their people, denying them not only freedom of speech and the ability to elect their own governments, but even freedom of religion. It helped the Chinese Communists come to power, and tens of millions of people in that country alone were killed by the Communists. Brutal regimes were set up by the Soviets in Mongolia, Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania and Bulgaria. The Soviets also provided support to the brutal regimes that came to power in Yugoslavia, Cuba, Ethiopia, Laos and Cambodia. The Soviet Union also supported brutal regimes in Libya, Yemen, Syria and Iraq.
Many of these nations supported terrorism, massacred people within their own borders, started wars, imprisoned people who wanted freedom for their countries and supported other brutal, unfree regimes. In terms of death alone, tens of millions of people lost their lives as a result of the Soviet Union's actions.
Nothing the United States has done, anywhere, at any time, comes close to this. To even suggest this is obscene. I can't understand how anyone who actually wants to get their facts straight would say what you did.
And meatcleaver is the person Cloudboy thinks is so informative.
quote:
Saudi Arabia has every right to charge what it wants for its own natural resources so has Iran, Iraq and any other country and free from interference from outside its borders. What would the USA's reaction be to an outside country demanding it lowers the price of its own resources?
Like typical leftists that I've been hearing for decades (whether you are one or not, you take most of your arguments from them) you make a fetish out of national borders and the rights of individual countries, even when those countries are ruled by bullies who oppress their people. The only time I ever see the word "bully" used by people who argue like you (and I believe you've used the term in the same way) is to say that the U.S. or its allies are being bullies. The people you defend always seem to be dictators or dictatorial regimes that oppress their people. Are you proud of that?
I was listing countries that have hurt others. It doesn't matter if they did so under the rule of international law or not. It doesn't matter whether or not I think we should interfere to make them lower their prices. Actually, I probably wouldn't favor that, but it's not something I've thought about. And it's certainly beside the point of what those nations have done to hurt others.
quote:
As for terrorism, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The USA threatened to invade Canada for harboring a terrorist i.e. Sitting Bull.
You really will take any stick at all to beat America with, even that tired, old, meaningless left-wing catch phrase. So what if one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. That isn't the way people with brains judge who is or is not a terrorist. "Another man" could be Hitler. Is his opinion just as good as anyone else's as to who's a terrorist and who's a freedom fighter?
quote:
The Vietnam war started out as a war against the French colonists and was a civil war in which the USA decided to take sides.
Korea, ditto.
Entirely beside the point. You know what the point of that list was. Stop trying to blow smoke in every reader's eyes.
quote:
Japan is a good one. Why did it militarise? Because of the demands to open up its ports and make concessions to imperial powers. America were the first country to force Japan into what is known in Japan as the unfair treaties by making it clear in no uncertain terms what the uS would do if Japan didn't fall into line. That is why they militarised
You blow more smoke than Cheech & Chong. The issue was which states or countries hurt more people outside their borders than did the United States. Japan did. If your point is that Japan did not, then argue it. Anything else is beside the point. Or are you trying to argue that America bears most of the blame for atrocities the Japanese armed forces committed?
quote:
Oh and Cambodia and Loas. Whose fault was it that Cambodia and Loas became chaotic? You have conveniently forgot Kissenger and American carpet bombing. Kissenger was a war criminal and if he came from any other country you could bet America would also be calling him one.
More claptrap. My point is the same as before: You're blowing smoke, you're getting off the point. By promoting the communist revolutionaries in Cambodia, Vietnam is enormously responsible for the massacre of more than 1 million Cambodians. Nothing Kissinger ever did can remotely compare to that. It's not hard to see. It's very hard to blame Kissinger but ignore, as you do, the prime groups responsible for it -- the Cambodian communists first and foremost, and Vietnam secondarily. The Soviet Union also had quite a bit of responsibility, and China quite a bit more than the Soviets. At some point the Cambodian communists broke with Vietnam, but before that point, Vietnam helped bring them to power.
quote:
Cuba had barely got its independence from Spain when the USA took control and had a puppet government in place. The revolutionaries over threw a dictator supported by the USA. Democracy never was given a chance because of the US blockade. However, the poor people of Cuba did get an educxation and access to healthcare under Castro but their economy is in ruins because of the US blockade and the threat by the uSA to any other country or company that gives aid to Cuba. Cuba is fucked upo not because it had a revolution but because of interference by the USA.
You mean the U.S. is more responsible for lack of freedom in Cuba than the Cuban communists who actually run that country? You'll have to explain that one a bit better.
I can see why cloudboy is a great fan of yours. You're so much more articulate than "You're fucked up in the head." That doesn't actually mean you've successfully made an argument that has any sense to it.
Yet again.
_____________________________
I'd rather be in
Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
|
RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 
Profile
ThankYou for the Laugh.
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread