RE: List of countries that put America to shame (Full Version)

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wytchywoman -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 1:38:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine


I'm not that familiar with Nietsche or Ayn Rand, but I think they believed something similar to "might makes right."


I think you might find Ayn Rand interesting, DelightMachine. But you're wrong about her philosophy if you interpreted her to say "might makes right".

I've read nearly everything she's written, but if you'd like a short synopsis of her objectivist philosophy, here's a link for you:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_intro

Note that she specificaly states this: The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others.



Level -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 1:58:10 PM)

I enjoyed Rand's Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead quite a bit, I think more for her intensity of ideas than overly brilliant writing. I have to give her a nod for helping spark my interest in libertarianism, as well.



meatcleaver -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 2:01:11 PM)

There is a big problem with laissez faire capitalism which the British found out to their cost. Apart from the industrial slums it created, the dogma of laissez faire capitalism was at the root of the Irish famine. Ireland at the height of the famine was exporting food, the ideology of laissez faire capitalism was firmly rooted in the psyche of the government in London at the time who thought that interference in the markets would make the famine worse. The British did eventually learn that laissez faire capitalism was an evil but too late for the Irish but they learnt from their bad governance to prevent a similar famine in India. They also realised that organised labour had its place and was a safety valve preventing revolution. Organised labour being another anthema to laissez faire capitalists but an essential element in a just economy.



wytchywoman -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 2:18:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I enjoyed Rand's Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead quite a bit, I think more for her intensity of ideas than overly brilliant writing. I have to give her a nod for helping spark my interest in libertarianism, as well.


I agree with you, Level. Ayn Rand is redundant in her writing to say the least. She hammers the same idea onto every page over and over. What I enjoy about her books is  the fact that she is so is articulate and clear (aside from repetitive). I don't think it's possible to live in a black and white world like she depicts in her fiction, but I admire her ability to be so firm and clear in her beliefs.



Level -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 2:28:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I enjoyed Rand's Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead quite a bit, I think more for her intensity of ideas than overly brilliant writing. I have to give her a nod for helping spark my interest in libertarianism, as well.


I agree with you, Level. Ayn Rand is redundant in her writing to say the least. She hammers the same idea onto every page over and over. What I enjoy about her books is  the fact that she is so is articulate and clear (aside from repetitive). I don't think it's possible to live in a black and white world like she depicts in her fiction, but I admire her ability to be so firm and clear in her beliefs.



Same here, w.... I have tons of passages in Atlas Shrugged highlighted, but after that initial rush wore off, I saw the difficulties one would have living that way, and I saw some flaws (or what I consider flaws anyway).... worth the read though [;)].
 
Level



wytchywoman -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 2:42:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level



Same here, w.... I have tons of passages in Atlas Shrugged highlighted, but after that initial rush wore off, I saw the difficulties one would have living that way, and I saw some flaws (or what I consider flaws anyway).... worth the read though [;)].
 
Level


Just out of curiousity, Level? Did you catch the same BDSM undertones in Atlas Shrugged (in particular) that I did. [8D]




DelightMachine -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 2:47:02 PM)

I'll probably look into Rand more later. One of the books that, to me, seems like it may refute the general idea that might makes right is "The Sea-Wolf," a novel by Jack London.



DelightMachine -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 2:54:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There is a big problem with laissez faire capitalism which the British found out to their cost. Apart from the industrial slums it created, the dogma of laissez faire capitalism was at the root of the Irish famine.

Laissez faire capitalism is only to blame if you leave out the fact that the English government so oppressed the Irish for so long beforehand. I'd call the famine a delayed symptom of that oppression rather than blame it on laissez faire capitalism.  

Edited to add: Just look at the bottom of this page on the Web. The final section goes into detail about English suppression of free trade for the Irish, which helped impoverish the country (along with the anti-Catholic laws that helped impoverish the vast majority even further).
http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_1.html



Level -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 3:59:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level



Same here, w.... I have tons of passages in Atlas Shrugged highlighted, but after that initial rush wore off, I saw the difficulties one would have living that way, and I saw some flaws (or what I consider flaws anyway).... worth the read though [;)].
 
Level


Just out of curiousity, Level? Did you catch the same BDSM undertones in Atlas Shrugged (in particular) that I did. [8D]




*laughing*....... it's been years and years since I read it, but I do remember things like "He took her wrist and threw her inside his room, making the gesture tell her that he needed no sign of consent or resistance....".... lots of alpha types in her books, hmm??



wytchywoman -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 4:03:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level



*laughing*....... it's been years and years since I read it, but I do remember things like "He took her wrist and threw her inside his room, making the gesture tell her that he needed no sign of consent or resistance....".... lots of alpha types in her books, hmm??


Yeppers. Remember when Hank Reardon put the bracelet of Reardon Steel on Dagny's wrist and Ayn Rand described it this way:

"It gave her the most feminine of looks. The look of a woman in chains".

Nuff said. [8D]



meatcleaver -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 4:34:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There is a big problem with laissez faire capitalism which the British found out to their cost. Apart from the industrial slums it created, the dogma of laissez faire capitalism was at the root of the Irish famine.

Laissez faire capitalism is only to blame if you leave out the fact that the English government so oppressed the Irish for so long beforehand. I'd call the famine a delayed symptom of that oppression rather than blame it on laissez faire capitalism.  



Once again your history fails you. While I won't defend the British record in Ireland because their bad governance is indefensivable, a lot of history about oppression was propaganda that can be traced to the birth of nationalism in the 18th century.

For example: the masacre at Drogeda by Cromwell. Drogeda was an English Royalist garrison town at the time under the governor Sir John Aston so the 3,000 put to the sword were English Royalist soldiers and not civilians as the nationalists claimed 150 years later and which is still seen as fact to many nationalists.

Another is the Battle of the Boyne which was more to do with Loius XIV extending his power through James, there were more French than Irish in the army of James and more Germans and Dutch in the army of William than English. William was reluctant to use his English soldiers because he thought they mightn't fight against the Irish which at the time were seen as fellow countrymen. The battle through myth is now seen as protestant oppression of the catholic Irish which it wasn't.

You are very good at broad sweeps with little regard to the facts. Like the little fact earlier in this thread about Pol Pot suddenly arriving on the scene with total disregard for US carpet bombing!



meatcleaver -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 4:45:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

Edited to add: Just look at the bottom of this page on the Web. The final section goes into detail about English suppression of free trade for the Irish, which helped impoverish the country (along with the anti-Catholic laws that helped impoverish the vast majority even further).
http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_1.html


Even the evidence you put forward is nonsense and pays little regard to historical fact. The Normans initially invaded Ireland from England, the English at the time being a race conquered by the Normans. It serves the purpose of the nationlists to claim the English invaded Ireland at that point.

Actually if I was receiving education that is of the standard of that website I would ask for my money back because it shows little regard for objective fact and is completely and utterly subjective propaganda and would do a history scholar little good. If they spouted such subjective nonsense in a seminar they would be laughed at.

I don't defend the British role in Ireland but at least put forward something other than propaganda. The website quotes totally out of context and without historical background. The relationship between England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales discussed outside the context of the European power chess game is a nonsense. For example most of the homestead in Ulster were Scottish, a country the website seems to forget exists.

A quote from the website - 'From the 15th through the 19th centuries, successive English monarchies and governments enacted laws designed to suppress and destroy Irish manufacturing and trade.'

Just a little extra information forgotten about by the author of the site. The last English dynasty ended in 1066, the Stuarts were a Scottish dynasty, William was Dutch and Britain as a state is about 70 years older than the USA. To smoothly talk about English power from the 13th century to the present just shows the uselessness of the eductaional value of the website.



meatcleaver -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/6/2006 6:02:26 PM)

I also notice the website conveniently forgets to mention the repeal of laws and reforms which would paint a rather inconvenient picture for the author of the website.



DelightMachine -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/7/2006 10:44:18 AM)

quote:

meatcleaver:
I don't defend the British role in Ireland but at least put forward something other than propaganda.

The Web site you're calling "propaganda" appears to be a teaching site put up by some state education program in Nebraska. If you bothered to look a little harder, you'd see that it's made up of summaries of books, with ample quotes. I'm not claiming to be an expert and I'm not claiming anything for that site, just that it doesn't appear to be propaganda to me. In fact, if you'd bothered to look, you'd find that the Web site itself backs up much of what you yourself said.

I got curious about the Irish famine and did a bit more reading, and what you say about laissez-faire policies of the British government at the time (specifically, the administration of Prime Minister Russell, and even Peel) seems to have a lot of evidence to back it up: British office-holders (appointed and elected) seemed to have a dogmatic interpretation of laissez-faire policies that led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands and possibly more than a million poor people in Ireland.

I don't think laissez-faire policies work well in disasters, particularly those that affect poor people. Where they work well is over the course of decades. For instance, over the course of even the 19th century, laissez-faire policies took hold in Ireland and potato blights in the later decades of that century resulted in no mass starvation whatever.

And it's been said that if British policy hadn't been to oppress and impoverish Ireland for the previous many decades, the island would have been wealthy enough for people there to buy their own food or deal with the smaller number of local poor who would have been dependent on potatoes.

Laissez-faire is the best economic policy for the long term -- which has been proven by many, many examples over time. It isn't a defense policy, a welfare policy or a cultural policy.

meatcleaver, notice how I am able to be open-minded enough to find some truth in what you say and admit it in a subsequent post. I think I may have seen you do that once, but I can't even recall the example. I've never seen some people on these boards do it. Getting a political discussion closer to the truth, particularly when it concerns serious things like poverty, oppression and violence, is something more important than nurturing your ego or mine.



meatcleaver -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/7/2006 12:00:18 PM)

Thanks for your reply DM

I think the British role in Ireland was shameful and not to be defended. It is complex history and should be resisted into reducing it to English v Irish nationalism or Protestant v Catholic as both those interpretations are wrong. But it is a good lesson in blind dogma, prejudice and misunderstanding.

I guess I was a little touchy.



meatcleaver -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/12/2006 5:29:55 PM)

With Germany having a female Chancelor, Britains having had a female Prime Minister and its third most powerful politician being a woman and even a possibility that France might have a female President next. If Hilary does decide to run and becomes President, will it show that American women have eventually caught up with European women in regard to their position in society? Or is this another area where America will trail in the wake of other countries? 



Level -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/12/2006 5:36:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

With Germany having a female Chancelor, Britains having had a female Prime Minister and its third most powerful politician being a woman and even a possibility that France might have a female President next. If Hilary does decide to run and becomes President, will it show that American women have eventually caught up with European women in regard to their position in society? Or is this another area where America will trail in the wake of other countries? 


I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a female president, I just hope like hell it isn't Hillary. I like Condeleeza Rice, but that would mean "more of the same", and though I voted for W twice, I think we need to get some change going. Hmm...... Susan Collins is a solid thinking, decent sort.... surely there are more women who would fit the bill, but I don't know who, off the top of my head.



DelightMachine -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/12/2006 9:21:54 PM)

1. No, if Hilary does decide to run and becomes president, it will show that Americans no longer care that terrorists could get WMDs, and Americans aren't that dumb. If I'm wrong and Americans are that dumb, then at least the first cities to go would be D.C. and NYC, in which case the average intelligence of the American voter would rise through the process of elimination. And, obviously, who we chose as president depends on our perception of the worthiness of the few who run. Sometimes we luck out and get a great president, like George W. Bush.

2. I hope it's an area where America will trail in the wake of other countries, with the exception of Condoleeza Rice, who might make a good president (I don't yet know enough about her). I'd have to know more about what she thinks on domestic issues. I don't see a single other woman out there that's both presidential material and capable of getting nominated.

Hilary Clinton? She could get nominated, but she's corrupt as hell. If I agreed with her about every issue, I'd still think she's corrupt as hell.





Tantalus42 -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/13/2006 3:03:49 PM)

1.  Americans were dumb enough to vote for Bush twice, so I guess they could be slightly smarter and vote for Hillary.

2.  There are plenty of other women with the smarts and integrity to make great presidents (Olympia Snowe hasn't been mentioned and she is the senior senator from Maine over Susan Collins, and tons smarter).  But this is still a routinely sexist society, so it's no surprise that, with very few exceptions, everyone looks at the male politicians instead of the female ones.



Level -> RE: List of countries that put America to shame (5/13/2006 3:11:39 PM)

Yep, Senator Snowe does indeed seem sharp. Not being from up there, I don't know how I would rank her versus Collins.
 
Level



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