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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 10:43:02 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		I suggest you tally up the deaths of the last week and then consider if 100,000 deaths seem unrealistic in three years.

No one is saying America killed 100,000 people but those deaths are a consequence of an illegal war based on lies.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 10:47:46 AM   
DelightMachine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974
The chance that I'll lose part of my liberty because the US tries to make all countries do as they want (think of the war on drugs, the war on porn, etc.) right now is bigger than the chance that I'll lose my liberty because of some Iranian mollah.


Oh, of course. Ask that Dutch filmmaker who made the movie about Muslims. Oh, that's right, I forgot, he's dead. Perhaps that Dutch politician who railed against Islamic extremism -- or is she still in hiding? Yes, you have so much more to fear from the United States.

We'll take your porn away. Would that be porn involving underage persons? A shocking violation of human rights to take away such valuable stuff!

And no, you have very little to fear from the mullahs. There's hardly any chance that nuclear bombs will ever come from there. They've said so themselves. Ignore them and keep your eyes on dangerous America. That would be a wise move.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 10:51:02 AM   
DelightMachine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I suggest you tally up the deaths of the last week and then consider if 100,000 deaths seem unrealistic in three years.

No one is saying America killed 100,000 people but those deaths are a consequence of an illegal war based on lies.

Here's part of what you originally said:
quote:


Not even saddam was killing people on that scale.

Can't you admit when you're wrong? Or is it hopeless to try to make you admit the facts?

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 11:13:40 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

So it's unfair to ask other people to be sensible? To take the good with the bad when making a judgment about our country?


Keep in mind that there are emotions that burn stronger than common sense ever will.  It's hard, and sometimes damn near impossible, to forgive and forget.  There are things that no one should be asked to put aside, unless they choose to do so of their own volition.

quote:

If you really believe that, well, you're not being patriotic.


So I'm not patriotic if I criticize too strongly, or in a way that makes you uncomfortable, or even a way that hits too close to home?  I'm not patriotic if I believe that people have the right to be unpatriotic?  I'm not patriotic if I criticize the US in a way that you deem "attacking"?  If I take all this at face value, then there really aren't that many "patriots" left.

I will not agree blindly with what our government is doing, and I will not say I agree just to look better in your eyes.  I would rather be labeled "unpatriotic" by you than accept something for no other reason than because someone tells me I should.  The fact is, I do not agree with you, nor do I have to.


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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 11:17:29 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

The real weakness of the US citizen is that he or she wants to be loved.  It ain't gonna happen.


You're making a classic reasoning error that I never expected you to make (considering your posting record). Criticising a country and it's politics hasn't got anything to do with liking or not liking the citizens of that country. I think the US as a country is heading in the wrong direction at the moment and quite fast. The chance that I'll lose part of my liberty because the US tries to make all countries do as they want (think of the war on drugs, the war on porn, etc.) right now is bigger than the chance that I'll lose my liberty because of some Iranian mollah. But that doesn't mean I dislike "US citizens". There's lot's of nice, friendly US citizens that do not try to control my life. I just hope they'll vote Bush out soon.



Ok, the average US citizen wants to be loved.  It ain't gonna happen.

Better?

That statement has nothing to do with how you feel.  The first sentence is an observation about our populace that dates back to Alexis de Tocqueville; the second is one about human behavior and richer countries that preceeds Niccolò Machiavelli.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 11:25:32 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
One of the reasons for the Marshall plan was the American worry over the strength of the communist parties in some western European countries such as France and Italy where the communists had played major roles in the resistance movements. The idea was to stop the spread of Russian influence, the Russians being by many Europeans as the country that had played the major contribution in defeating the German army.


Really ... you mean we weren't just bing nice?
 
I guess you're just being master of the obvious today.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 11:42:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
One of the reasons for the Marshall plan was the American worry over the strength of the communist parties in some western European countries such as France and Italy where the communists had played major roles in the resistance movements. The idea was to stop the spread of Russian influence, the Russians being by many Europeans as the country that had played the major contribution in defeating the German army.


Really ... you mean we weren't just bing nice?
 
I guess you're just being master of the obvious today.


Governments aren't nice, they deal in 'realpolitik'. They operate in their own interests. Sometimes those interests benefit others but it has nothing to do with being nice.

Individual citizens are irrelevent unless they can't be manipulated to support a government decision, then they become relevent and are often the target of negative propaganda.

Why do you think the term 'unAmerican' exists?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/23/2006 11:43:59 AM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 1:43:24 PM   
DelightMachine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

So it's unfair to ask other people to be sensible? To take the good with the bad when making a judgment about our country?


Keep in mind that there are emotions that burn stronger than common sense ever will.  It's hard, and sometimes damn near impossible, to forgive and forget.  There are things that no one should be asked to put aside, unless they choose to do so of their own volition.


Are those people justified in being anti-American or not? If not, they're wrong. If they're right, then join them and wear your anti-Americanism proudly. If you have some middle position, you'll need to spell it out more clearly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain
quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine
If you really believe that, well, you're not being patriotic.


So I'm not patriotic if I criticize too strongly, or in a way that makes you uncomfortable, or even a way that hits too close to home?

Obviously, I didn't say that. You're twisting words to make a straw man. I've said repeatedly that criticism is acceptable. I'm sorry you just don't want to accept that I believe that.
quote:

I'm not patriotic if I believe that people have the right to be unpatriotic?

Where did I say that?
quote:

I'm not patriotic if I criticize the US in a way that you deem "attacking"?

Absolutely. Now, patriotism in actions taken for the benefit of your country is much more important, but one lesser part of patriotism is in refraining from attacking your country in words. Personally, I'd be careful about making judgments about whether something you or anyone else said is either just a criticism or is an attack, but that doesn't mean I can't make the judgment. Do you think there's anything wrong with what I said in this paragraph?

If you can say anything at all about your country and still be a patriot, that's an extremely weak definition of patriotism, don't you think?

I'm going to repeat myself to each one of you deaf and blind contributors to this thread until I make myself and everyone else sick of it, but I'm gonna drill it into your heads either way:
1. Someone who can't admit that this nation has done enormous good in the world isn't looking at the facts.
2. Anyone who can't admit that we have done enormous good in the world is anti-American, and if they're American, they're unpatriotic. (I'll accept that some are stone-cold ignorant, but not when they seem otherwise well informed.)  
3. A lot of people who are unpatriotic or anti-American like to pretend they're only "critics" and that their attacks are only "criticism." One way of smoking them out is by seeing if they can admit that the United States has done enormous good in the world. My way of getting them to do that was writing the provocative original post to this thread. Actually, if you look at it, it shouldn't look that provocative, I think.
4. I readily accept the fact that if you wanted to judge what nation is "the best in the world" you'd look at both the good things that nation has done and the bad. The purpose of this thread was not to prove we're the best. The purpose of this thread was to see who would admit that we've done a lot of good and who wouldn't admit it (and who would admit it only grudgingly). Another purpose was to refute attacks on America.

We have had plenty of examples of people posting here who have offered up attacks on America, and many of them have insisted on calling it "criticism."

We also have plenty of examples of Americans who criticize the very notion that America could possibly have done more for people outside its borders than any other country. It's not that they dispute this as a matter of fact -- facts have little to do with what they've been writing about here. They just think it's boastful. Maybe so, and I don't really care, because I think it's more important to smoke out the anti-Americans.

I think it's incredibly interesting that there are some people posting here whose only criticism is of the pro-Americans and patriots and who ignore the bigotry and rudeness of the anti-Americans. The response of people like you is even more interesting -- you excuse their bad behavior and pick over the behavior of me and other pro-Americans with a fine-toothed comb.   
quote:

I will not agree blindly with what our government is doing, and I will not say I agree just to look better in your eyes.  I would rather be labeled "unpatriotic" by you than accept something for no other reason than because someone tells me I should.  The fact is, I do not agree with you, nor do I have to.

And who said you had to? When you're finished knocking down that straw man, feel free to join the real discussion. My point hasn't been to stiffle debate but to increase it, and what I wanted to accomplish was to show the anti-Americans for what they are, by looking at their own words.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 2:09:05 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Why is not agreeing with the ideologies of the state anti-American? Did Moses come down from the mountain with tablets of stone defining what being American was?

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 2:11:26 PM   
DelightMachine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

For all those critics of America and U.S. policies, perhaps you could list here those nations that have been more beneficial to people outside their borders than the United States has been.


Your absolutely right that the US have been very beneficial to lots of people outside its borders, probably more than most other countries. However, that is only half the picture, as on the other hand, I can also think of hardly any country that has been more detrimental to people outside its borders. The fact that the US have done many good things does not erase the bad, it merely means that it's not all completely black and white.


I think your logic in this post is fine, but your facts are wrong.
quote:

I can also think of hardly any country that has been more detrimental to people outside its borders.

That's worth a reply.
I can think of plenty. Just in the 20th century: Germany, the Soviet Union, Afghanistan (terrorism and heroin), Colombia, Saudi Arabia (terrorism, intolerance, and especially gas prices, especially as they affected the Third World), Iran (the Iran-Iraq war, support for terrorism, support for higher gas prices), Iraq (same reasons -- Iraq started the war, both sides kept it going), Japan (World War II), North Vietnam (bringing tyranny to South Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos), China (supporting dictators wherever they have oil or other raw materials to sell to China, supporting left-wing militants), East Germany (for acting like a cat's paw of the Soviet Union), North Korea (for starting the Korean war), Italy (World War II), and Cuba (for supporting revolutionaries in many places who either did set up dictatorships or wanted to). 

You say that the U.S. has been "plenty beneficial to many people outside its borders" but one of the most "detrimental" to people as well.

In this and in your other posts, you emphasize the detrimental over the beneficial. You're also very vague.
So I've got three questions for you:
1. What have been the major ways the U.S. has been beneficial to the rest of the world?
2. What have been the major ways the U.S. has harmed the rest of the world?
3. Please show how the harm done by the U.S. has been worse than the benefits the U.S. has given the world. Or how the harm has equaled the benefits. Or how the harm has come close to the benefits.

I don't think the facts are with you, but I'd be interested to hear how you come to your conclusions.

I completely agree with your statement that "it's not all black and white."

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 3:04:14 PM   
DelightMachine


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quote:


For many people outside the USA, this bitterness towards Cuba is seen almost pathological with the added cynicism of money buying policy in Washington. Whatever the reason for it, whether its because a little country thumbed its nose at the US and got away with it, the USA's blockade is seen as mean and an attack on the poor as much as the regime. Castro and Guevara weren't even communists until the USA forced them to choose between capitulation and seeking sanctuary under the protection of the USSR

PATHOLOGICAL? The only evidence of pathology here is your deranged defense of a murderous regime that enslaves its citizens. YOU were the one who brought up AMERICAN civil rights and AMERICAN slavery. HAVE YOU NO DECENCY?

Tens of thousands have rotted in Castro's jails over the past 46 years. His regime has tortured and murdered prisoners. Now you're spreading lies about a vicious dictator.

At some points in the past, when the United States felt it had no choice, it supported dictators in order to prevent worse regimes from taking power. It was an ugly thing to do, but it was defended because it was believed to serve the greater good. But you don't even have that excuse.

How dare you spout that filth. You're spitting on the graves of people whose feet you're unworthy to kiss.

And then you, who attacked the U.S. over civil rights and slavery, have the nerve to call us hypocrites:

quote:

The list is endless and you might say other countries are just as guilty and probably that is true but the USA is the world's only superpower and has a profile to match so when it spouts about freedom and democracy and its hypocrisy is exposed and when it goes into a country in an illegal war with all guns blazing, people judge it.
This is what an anti-American sounds like. You are a prime specimen. You believe anything and everything said against this country, no matter how ridiculous, and you have a lot of trouble recognizing the obvious good this country has done. You also insult good people and support vicious people, all while proclaiming that your heart is with the oppressed and against the oppressers. And then you have the nerve to shout "Hypocrite!" 
 
You're able to do this only because you have no respect for the truth. People who aren't bothered by your mendacity either don't know the facts or also don't respect the truth.

quote:


Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knew the WMD issue was trumped up lies, everyone knew that bad as Saddam was, he was no friend of Islamic terrorists and never helped them and wasn't a threat to the west. Everyone who takes a slight interest in politics knew Rumsfeld and co had written about invading Iraq before 9/11.

Everyone except the German, French, Italian, British and Russian intelligence services. Jacques Chirac's government didn't dispute that there were WMDs in Iraq until we couldn't find any. Saddam Hussein had a policy of suggesting to the West that there WERE WMDs in Iraq. Bad policy on his part.

quote:


Another issue that creates negative feelings towards the USA is its uncritical support and bank rolling of Israel even though Israel indulges in as much terrorism as the Palistinians.


quote:

Take for examples, Israels use of assinations with missiles, killing what they call a militant and half a dozen innocent civilians at the same time.


"WHAT THEY CALL" a militant? What evidence do you have that Isreal lies about that? Examples of Palestinian mendacity are legion. You don't have one fact to back up the idea that Israel is as terroristic as the terrorists of Palestine. Not one fact. There's an odor of bigotry and prejudice about you.

The Israeli government has not targeted civilians and has even prosecuted soldiers and others who it believed killed or hurt civilians unecessarily. The Palestinian terrorists have targeted civilians. And they have openly celebrated that fact.

U.S. support of Israel has never been uncritical. Our State Department has criticized them many times. Including the time they bombed the Iraqi nuclear plant.

quote:

Also the USA's hypocracy of trying to prevent everyone but Israel from having nuclear weapons.

We didn't prevent the United Kingdom or France from having nuclear weapons either. Nobody has a problem with that because nobody thinks those countries are going to misuse them. If you think it's all right for every other dictator on the block to have nukes, please say why.

quote:


The USA's use of power to force people to open its markets while protecting its own.

This is often a matter of interpretation, but where it occurs I hate it too.



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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 3:09:36 PM   
DelightMachine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Why is not agreeing with the ideologies of the state anti-American? Did Moses come down from the mountain with tablets of stone defining what being American was?


My answer to that was staring you in the face. I said I'd repeat it again, and here it is:
quote:


1. Someone who can't admit that this nation has done enormous good in the world isn't looking at the facts.
2. Anyone who can't admit that we have done enormous good in the world is anti-American, and if they're American, they're unpatriotic. (I'll accept that some are stone-cold ignorant, but not when they seem otherwise well informed.)  


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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 3:10:38 PM   
IronBear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine


quote:

I'm not patriotic if I criticize the US in a way that you deem "attacking"?

Absolutely. Now, patriotism in actions taken for the benefit of your country is much more important, but one lesser part of patriotism is in refraining from attacking your country in words. Personally, I'd be careful about making judgments about whether something you or anyone else said is either just a criticism or is an attack, but that doesn't mean I can't make the judgment. Do you think there's anything wrong with what I said in this paragraph?

If you can say anything at all about your country and still be a patriot, that's an extremely weak definition of patriotism, don't you think?



I'd just like to address this issue of patriosm.... Now bear with me and if i get off the mark I'll stand corrected... There have been cases of people who were extreemly patriotic and had an undieing love for their country and yes worked and spoke out against their country's leadership and the direction their country was going.. In some cases they were killed for their patriosm and became martyres for the cause of the betterment of their country (Ok so I cant think of any examples right now), however I would sugest that mandela was a patriot who spent many years in jail in South Africa for opposingf the officiel discrimination against non whites;  Ghandi worked to get rid of British rule in India; both of these great men were patriots.... When it is the will of the people to change the country to something diffrent to what they have loved, I have no issues with a patriot pulling up stakes and leaving for the country hr loved and believed in is dead and changed for all time.. I understand a number of pro-British citizens, borne and bred in the US at the conclusion of the War If Independence moved to Canada because they fervently believed in the British Crown.. They were too patriots.... Patriotism doesn't necessarily entail loud spruking or chest thumping or even flag waving. these are emotional signsa of the moment and yes often an emotional out pouring of patriotism but patriotisn lives in the heart of people.....

<<<Errors, typos and just bad spelling accepted ~ I'm exhausted and out of morphine, ergo no rest>>>

< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/23/2006 3:12:08 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 3:36:51 PM   
DelightMachine


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Status: offline 		I completely agree. That was a beautiful post.

As I said, the patriotism of words is something less than the patriotism of deeds.

And there's a big difference between criticizing your country (which a patriot does) and attacking it (which a patriot doesn't do).

I hope your rest is as peaceful as it can be.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 3:44:24 PM   
pekusa


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Status: offline 		I find that DelightMachine articulated what a majority of Americans feel, although we hear from the Media is anti sentiment. With that said..........

I for one don't understand why anyone would come across so unprincipled to bring up politcal idealogy on a sight about and concerning BDSM. DeMach defended it greatly. It is troubling that there is this anti sentiment and doubly troubling to see it undermine America.

If political rhetoric is spouted, one is open for a countering defense, however vitriolic it may be. We in America are given the chance to enjoy this lifestyle because of our FREEDOM as laid down in our constitution. I don't feel that this forum is such a place for insane blogging material.

As I always say, we should just beat their asses!     

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 3:50:54 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

I can think of plenty. Just in the 20th century: Germany, the Soviet Union, Afghanistan (terrorism and heroin), Colombia, Saudi Arabia (terrorism, intolerance, and especially gas prices, especially as they affected the Third World), Iran (the Iran-Iraq war, support for terrorism, support for higher gas prices), Iraq (same reasons -- Iraq started the war, both sides kept it going), Japan (World War II), North Vietnam (bringing tyranny to South Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos), China (supporting dictators wherever they have oil or other raw materials to sell to China, supporting left-wing militants), East Germany (for acting like a cat's paw of the Soviet Union), North Korea (for starting the Korean war), Italy (World War II), and Cuba (for supporting revolutionaries in many places who either did set up dictatorships or wanted to). 

You say that the U.S. has been "plenty beneficial to many people outside its borders" but one of the most "detrimental" to people as well.

In this and in your other posts, you emphasize the detrimental over the beneficial. You're also very vague.
So I've got three questions for you:
1. What have been the major ways the U.S. has been beneficial to the rest of the world?
2. What have been the major ways the U.S. has harmed the rest of the world?
3. Please show how the harm done by the U.S. has been worse than the benefits the U.S. has given the world. Or how the harm has equaled the benefits. Or how the harm has come close to the benefits.

I don't think the facts are with you, but I'd be interested to hear how you come to your conclusions.

I completely agree with your statement that "it's not all black and white."


You are being selective here. Germany, you are right.

The USSR was terrible to people inside its borders. Incidently the USA has been terrible to people inside its borders too. Namely native American Indians and Ulyses Grant's program to starve them off the plains. Outside its borders the USSR was no more guilty than the USA in the cold war. 

Saudi Arabia has every right to charge what it wants for its own natural resources so has Iran, Iraq and any other country and free from interference from outside its borders. What would the USA's reaction be to an outside country demanding it lowers the price of its own resources?

As for terrorism, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The USA threatened to invade Canada for harboring a terrorist i.e. Sitting Bull.

The Vietnam war started out as a war against the French colonists and  was a civil war in which the USA decided to take sides.

Korea, ditto.

What did East Germany do to people outside its borders?

Japan is a good one. Why did it militarise? Because of the demands to open up its ports and make concessions to imperial powers. America were the first country to force Japan into what is known in Japan as the unfair treaties by making it clear in no uncertain terms what the uS would do if Japan didn't fall into line. That is why they militarised

Oh and Cambodia and Loas. Whose fault was it that Cambodia and Loas became chaotic? You have conveniently forgot Kissenger and American carpet bombing. Kissenger was a war criminal and if he came from any other country you could bet America would also be calling him one.

Cuba had barely got its independence from Spain when the USA took control and had a puppet government in place. The revolutionaries over threw a dictator supported by the USA. Democracy never was given a chance because of the US blockade. However, the poor people of Cuba did get an educxation and access to healthcare under Castro but their economy is in ruins because of the US blockade and the threat by the uSA to any other country or company that gives aid to Cuba. Cuba is fucked upo not because it had a revolution but because of interference by the USA.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/23/2006 3:58:24 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 3:59:39 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine
Absolutely. Now, patriotism in actions taken for the benefit of your country is much more important, but one lesser part of patriotism is in refraining from attacking your country in words. Personally, I'd be careful about making judgments about whether something you or anyone else said is either just a criticism or is an attack, but that doesn't mean I can't make the judgment. Do you think there's anything wrong with what I said in this paragraph?
Very much so. I have not followed this thread and I do not intend to do so. It would serve no purpose. When I read the opening post I decided to mind my own business, as you clearly have issues and I most certainly consider it a waste of time to try to straighten you out.
 
However, the quoted paragraph accidentally caught my eye, and since you ask the question so well, I decided to spend some time on an answer anyway: the paragraph is very much wrong. You talk like someone who has been brainwashed.

There is not such a thing as patriotism. In whatever country one lives, there are good people and there are evil people and the latter nearly always rule the former, whether they are blue or red or yellow with black polka dots. Anybody who is 'patriotic' always supports the evil people. And often those who are 'antipatriotic' also have their strings pulled by the evil people.
Anybody who truly wants to support his people, his country, is wise to mind his own business and to do good and be a positive force in his own life and in his own local community.
 
What your opening post does is creating division and flame wars and thus it is not constructive, but to be regretted.
 
You say 'I want to build a mountain in this country' and you cry foul when other citizens say that they want to dig a valley. What makes you right and them wrong? Why are you a true citizen and why are they not? You would be wise to put this 'mountain-valley' conflict out of your mind and make sure that the village has a water pump or a library or whatever. Ignore those who have power and their agenda; do something good for your local community yourself instead.

(in reply to DelightMachine)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 4:13:12 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Why is not agreeing with the ideologies of the state anti-American? Did Moses come down from the mountain with tablets of stone defining what being American was?


My answer to that was staring you in the face. I said I'd repeat it again, and here it is:
quote:


1. Someone who can't admit that this nation has done enormous good in the world isn't looking at the facts.
2. Anyone who can't admit that we have done enormous good in the world is anti-American, and if they're American, they're unpatriotic. (I'll accept that some are stone-cold ignorant, but not when they seem otherwise well informed.)  



Actually I meant unAmerican. Meaning, how can an American be unAmerican?

I asked this because it there is a flaw in your logic about how good the US is. A Frenchman can't be unFrench, a German can't be unGerman, a Brit can't be unBritish etc. even if they don't believe in the ideologies of the state. The ideologies are a human construct and do not prempt someone being a member of the nation so its impossible to be un-whatever. The very fact that an American can call another American unAmerican, exposes an intolerence that exists within the US's borders.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/23/2006 4:14:14 PM >

(in reply to DelightMachine)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 4:16:54 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Are you using a random essay generator to write your posts that hinges around the words "straw man", "unpatriotic", "anti-American", and "attacking"?

Seriously, though, the point where you begin to patronize me and treat me with condescension is the point where this argument ends on my part.  If you have nothing better to do than attack those you don't agree with, then it's time for me to bow out of this thread.  It's really starting to become redundant anyway.  I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me.  That's good.  That's what this country is based on.  Let's leave it there.

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(in reply to DelightMachine)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 4:37:15 PM   
DelightMachine


Posts: 652
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline 		Oh, one other untruth that needs to be corrected (you have so many, meatcleaver):

quote:

everyone knew that bad as Saddam was, he was no friend of Islamic terrorists and never helped them and wasn't a threat to the west. Everyone who takes a slight interest in politics knew Rumsfeld and co had written about invading Iraq before 9/11.


The evidence of contact between Saddam and Al Qaeda has been out there for some time. From a July 18, 2005 article in The Weekly Standard ("The Mother of All Connections" by Stephen F. Hayes & Thomas Joscelyn):

quote:

Indeed, more than two years after the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein was ousted, there is much we do not know about the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. We do know, however, that there was one. We know about this relationship not from Bush administration assertions but from internal Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) documents recovered in Iraq after the war--documents that have been authenticated by a U.S. intelligence community long hostile to the very idea that any such relationship exists.

We know from these IIS documents that beginning in 1992 the former Iraqi regime regarded bin Laden as an Iraqi Intelligence asset. We know from IIS documents that the former Iraqi regime provided safe haven and financial support to an Iraqi who has admitted to mixing the chemicals for the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center. We know from IIS documents that Saddam Hussein agreed to Osama bin Laden's request to broadcast anti-Saudi propaganda on Iraqi state-run television. We know from IIS documents that a "trusted confidante" of bin Laden stayed for more than two weeks at a posh Baghdad hotel as the guest of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.

We have been told by Hudayfa Azzam, the son of bin Laden's longtime mentor Abdullah Azzam, that Saddam Hussein welcomed young al Qaeda members "with open arms" before the war, that they "entered Iraq in large numbers, setting up an organization to confront the occupation," and that the regime "strictly and directly" controlled their activities. We have been told by Jordan's King Abdullah that his government knew Abu Musab al Zarqawi was in Iraq before the war and requested that the former Iraqi regime deport him. We have been told by Time magazine that confidential documents from Zarqawi's group, recovered in recent raids, indicate other jihadists had joined him in Baghdad before the Hussein regime fell. We have been told by one of those jihadists that he was with Zarqawi in Baghdad before the war. We have been told by Ayad Allawi, former Iraqi prime minister and a longtime CIA source, that other Iraqi Intelligence documents indicate bin Laden's top deputy was in Iraq for a jihadist conference in September 1999.



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(in reply to meatcleaver)
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