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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 9:40:16 AM   
Mercnbeth


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It makes interesting parlor talk to debate history and the propriety of taking lands from indinginous people be they North American "Indians", Africans, South American "Indians", "Palestinians" or Romanian Gypsies. It's a great method for side with the least valid argument to deflect focus from facts with rhetoric.

Regardless of the "contribution" of taxes never recovered by illegal aliens, it does not offset the cost. You can not consider the non-reimbursement of Social Security taxes as the only effect. If it contributes positively at all, it's minimal. Rather compare it to the closing of facilities in the poorest sections where US citizens reside. Put the downward pressure on wages for low skill jobs directly on the shoulders of illegal aliens setting the "acceptable" wage. The solution is simple. Enforce the employer directed laws that went into effect the last time the citizens of the US were talked into an amnesty program. Does anyone remember that? The "one time" amnesty was going to address those already in the county and stop new illegal entry. It was not effective because the laws, still on the books, were not and are not enforced. Enforce the laws against the employers and the problem is solved. Without a market, there is no illegal alien problem.

But in the true sense even those issues are pure rhetoric. The bottom line is these people are here illegally!

Any factual debate on that issue?

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 10:11:09 AM   
Happilymarried


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To the OP, KUDOS.  The post was very funny, and very sadly...true.  I come from just about every imaginable mixture of people (Cherokee, Irish, African American, English, German)...my friends call me a mutt.    All of my relatives came to the U.S. legally and worked their butts off paying taxes all along the way.  As it stands now, I do not receive any government assistance, nor do I want to.  I pay $600.00 a month for health insurance, but for the past five times that I have been to the doctor, there were illegal immigrants there that didn't have to pay anything because they had medicaid.  How much more can our nation give out before there is nothing left?  This problem is not limited to the American/Mexican border anymore.  I live in KY, and immigration is becoming a horrific problem here.  Neighborhoods have been overrun with crime, social services are being drained, schools are suffering...the list goes on.  We need to secure our borders and send them all back so that they can go through the proper process of obtaining citizenship.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 10:33:21 AM   
MistressDREAD


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quote:

it does not offset the cost.
Nothing can offset its cost Mercnbeth as costs in the country continue to outsourse income.  
Look at the SS system alone. Cant blame everything on the illigals. They cant vote and its the voter that gave finance to the American offspring of illigals as they have the American rights to be here and attend school and get housing and medical assistance. When you think you see an illigal gaining off the welfair system, its not them that they are collecting for, its the American children. When you see an assume illiegals in the Dr.s office getting medical attention its not them its for but those American children that are on the medicad not them. And its the same for about every goverment prograhm. There are litterally millions of children who cross the open boarder every day just to attend school then return across the boarder because thats where their family are and live. Does America compensate Mexico for its American Citizens that use that govemernments resorces as well ? Im sure its no where close to whats used here but lets be just in Our judgements across the board.

(in reply to Happilymarried)
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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 10:39:10 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD


quote:

Of course they don't pay tax
your wrong here. most illigals do pay taxes that they never collect back like Citizens do. AND  emigrants who are shipped into the USA legally to do tempt work for big business also pay taxes from money earned and are never allowed to collect or file for it either from their own countries. Thats a billion dollar enterprize in its self.




Sorree!  I thought I was being sympathetic to your views but I admit to speaking from secondhand knowledge and ignorance and it all sounded like largely the same issues and argunments as Europe.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 10:40:47 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
But in the true sense even those issues are pure rhetoric. The bottom line is these people are here illegally!

Any factual debate on that issue?


I have to work pretty damn hard to find anything in one of your posts that I don't agree with, but I respectfully, have finally found something.
 
Your bottom line, in my opinion, is actually the line above the bottom. The real bottom line is that American businesses are willing to employ these people, in spite of them being illegals ... and is the reason most are coming here.
 
That is my factual debate. We need to police ourselves in order to deal with this problem. While there is a demand, there will be a supply.
 
Supply and demand ... isn't there a country that has that as a cornerstone of an economic system?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 10:56:12 AM   
MistressDREAD


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Damn caitlyn you beat Me to My answer.................. which would of been the same as Ive been debating the last ten posts or so.................. ~ smart purdy gurl. Course beth is purdy to.

< Message edited by MistressDREAD -- 4/24/2006 10:57:07 AM >

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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 11:01:40 AM   
Happilymarried


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Look at the SS system alone. Cant blame everything on the illigals. They cant vote and its the voter that gave finance to the American offspring of illigals as they have the American rights to be here and attend school and get housing and medical assistance. When you think you see an illigal gaining off the welfair system, its not them that they are collecting for, its the American children. When you see an assume illiegals in the Dr.s office getting medical attention its not them its for but those American children that are on the medicad not them.

 
Good point...but if they weren't here illegally, their children would not be citizens. 

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 11:44:10 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Dread: When you think you see an illigal gaining off the welfair system, its not them that they are collecting for, its the American children. When you see an assume illiegals in the Dr.s office getting medical attention its not them its for but those American children that are on the medicad not them.

You forgot a few, here's one...
When you see US children unable to read or spell in basic English, it's because the focus is placed on bi-lingual education versus education in the operating business language used not just by US citizens but the rest of the world. Enabled by a misguided PC focused bureaucracy, and reinforced by parents with no desire to homogenize into the US; we have an entire generation of remedial students "graduated" by a failed public school system.
 
quote:

Your bottom line, in my opinion, is actually the line above the bottom. The real bottom line is that American businesses are willing to employ these people, in spite of them being illegals ... and is the reason most are coming here.

 
caitlyn,
No, the bottom line is it's illegal for them to be here AND it's illegal to hire them. If you read the post you reference in it's entirety, it addresses the issue specifically. It also sites a precedent reason why the amnesty experiment didn't and won't work.

If it brings rhetoric comfort - don't do anything to the existing illegals in the county. The don't do anything includes not giving amnesty or, "a rose by any other name",  'guest worker' status. Police the employers. Fine the employers. Arrest the employers - END of illegal alien problem.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/24/2006 11:45:27 AM >

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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 11:50:20 AM   
MistressDREAD


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quote:

You forgot a few, here's one...
When you see US children unable to read or spell in basic English, it's because the focus is placed on bi-lingual education versus education in the operating business language used not just by US citizens but the rest of the world. Enabled by a misguided PC focused bureaucracy, and reinforced by parents with no desire to homogenize into the US; we have an entire generation of remedial students "graduated" by a failed public school system.

Oh  rhetoric !!!!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 12:27:08 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Oh  rhetoric !!!!

 
Dread,
As much as you'd not like to, you have to either eliminate rhetoric and talk about what occurred 100 - 200 - 2000 years ago, and focus on pragmatic facts; or ignore facts and try to rationalize other people into accepting your position.

The status of the public school system and what it is producing is factually based not rhetoric. Unless you'd care to site the 65% "success" rate of the basic skills test given in the LA school district requiring a 10th grade level as a positive reflection of the public school system. The importance and relevance of knowing how to speak and write proper English in order to conduct business isn't rhetoric; unless you deny that English is the established language of commerce in the world. The refusal of illegals to homogenize into US society isn't rhetoric; unless you believe that Mexican families require English be used in the home as my grandparents did.

Your words in response would be rhetoric unless factual or observational evidence is provided and verified.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 1:23:29 PM   
meatcleaver


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For a President that can fight the wrong war, against the wrong enemy, in the wrong country while seeking an enemy everyone knows to be in another country, I think Bush advocating an amesty for illegal immigrants is pretty damn smart and will work....up to a point.

But hey! What do I know, other than it appears to have worked in Spain.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/24/2006 1:24:44 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 1:26:35 PM   
MasterRenegade77


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Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants

Amen to this! 99 years later.


What a visionary that Teddy R. Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants
and being an AMERICAN in1907.

"In the first  place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes
here in good faith  becomes an American and assimilates himself to us,
he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is
an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or
birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's
becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man  who says he is an
American, but  something else also, isn't an American at  all. We have
room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one
language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for
but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

        -Theodore Roosevelt 1907-

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 1:46:10 PM   
MasterRenegade77


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Take the time to read this; It ought to scare the pants off you!

  We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context
  his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an
  immigration overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to
  capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant
  college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his
  latest book, Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and
  illegal was destroying the entire state of California. He said it
  would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The
  American Dream.



  Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and
  gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat
  spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the
  United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too
  self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that
  hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time.
  Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and
  that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit
  suicide.'"



  Here is how they do it," Lamm said:



  "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or
  multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation
  can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more
  competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual
  to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual.
  The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, ! put it this way: "The
  histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not
  assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada,
  Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence
  in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan
  and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion.
  France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.".



  Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism'
  and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an
  article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no
  cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the
  Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and
  discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of
  bounds.



  Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without
  much effort. The key is to! celebr ate diversity rather than unity. As
  Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent
  success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have
  been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance
  that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an
  American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us
  together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their
  own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor
  with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have
  various cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their
  differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."



  "Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least
  educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated,
  undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this
  second underclass have a! 50% dr opout rate from high. school."



  "My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations
  and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in
  ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I
  would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the
  fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all
  minority failure on the majority population."



  "My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship,
  and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity.
  I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people
  worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they
  are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is
  against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it
  takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The
  Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a
  common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All
  Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy, Persia,
  threatened the ir liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough
  to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions
  that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" --
  From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on
  the 'pluribus'. Instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America as
  surely as Kosovo."



  "Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to
  talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a
  word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped
  discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe'
  halt discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural
  country, having established multi-culturism, havi! ng the large
  foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it
  impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra:
  That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be
  good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the
  cumulative impact of millions of them."



  In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow.
  Profound silence followed. Finally he said,. "Lastly, I would censor
  Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It
  exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America. deserves to
  be destroyed, don't read that book.".



  There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous
  cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that
  room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically,
  quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today.
  Discussion is b! eing su ppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the
  foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even
  barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are
  growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into
  the
  Third World as corporations create a Third World in. America - take
  note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal
  aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book
  "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of
  Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance
  is strength.".



  Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the
  conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is
  deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration
  monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California
  wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American
  Dream.

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 2:02:02 PM   
meatcleaver


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Sounds like paranoia to me but then I'm one of the fifth columnists since I hold dual nationality and one daughter is dual with one passport different to me and my other daughter again dual with yet another different passport.

Lucky for the paranoid, none are American and none of us speak Spanish but...I forgot about my brother and his plans!

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/24/2006 3:17:04 PM   
MasterRenegade77


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Congress is back this week after its two-week recess, and
we expect the battle over illegal immigration to heat up
immediately. Here's what's happening.

The illegal alien rights organizers are continuing their
strategy of public pressure on our Senators. I still
consider it outrageous that illegal aliens have any
influence on our elected officials, but the only way
to counter this is for citizens to take a stand.

Grassfire team members did just that over the break,
delivering 125,000 faxes to their senators' in-state
offices as well as the Judiciary Committee. That brought
our fax campaign total to over 276,000 faxes!

+ + Delivering Petitions to the Judiciary Committee

Now the Senate amnesty bill we helped derail before the
break goes back to the Judiciary Committee. So that's
where we are going with petitions for each member of the
Committee -- personally delivered by Ron De Jong and myself.
We now have over 268,000 citizens on our Secure Our Borders
petition. I'd like to cross 300,000 this week, if possible.

If you have not yet signed this crucial petition,
please go here:

<http://www.grassfire.org/42/petition.asp?RID=5346044>

+ + Next Big Thing from Grassfire

As you may know, the illegal alien rights community
is organizing its next major protest day for next
Monday, May 1. Well, we are finalizing plans to launch
our next major effort in this battle on May 1 as well --
a nationwide "Stop The Invasion" billboard campaign.
Our first billboard will be going up in Dallas on May 1
(today we anticipate getting a firm commitment from the
billboard company). As soon as the details are finalized,
I will be letting you know.

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/25/2006 10:33:39 AM   
MasterRenegade77


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Check This Site out!!!
Support the MINUTE MEN


<http://www.minutemanhq.com/bf/>


Help them build their fence to protect against illegal immigration.
Read all about it!

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/25/2006 4:49:37 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD


 In fact of the posters here just how many of You work out in the sun on a daily basis and how much do you earn doing it ?AND just how many of you are not American. Now Im currious. 


I've worked as both a laborer in a shipyard and roofing houses for around minimum wage several years ago. When I didn't have a regular job, me and my buddies would haul scrap iron to make spending money. Thankfully I don't have to do that kind of work anymore, but I did, and I know quite a few others that have as well.
 
Level

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/26/2006 1:22:48 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

 In fact of the posters here just how many of You work out in the sun on a daily basis and how much do you earn doing it ?AND just how many of you are not American. Now Im currious. 


I'm not American though my brother soon will be but I have absolutely no plans to be one, I'm happy being what I am.

I'm interested in this thread because illegal immigration is a universal problem in the west, the EU having around ten million illegal immigrants, mainly from Africa. I've worked in the fields in south Europe and in coal mines.

I don't see illegal immigration as a problem of what it costs society as I don't think it does, I think society makes a net profit out of them and the real issue is exploitation both from the people who employ them and the people smugglers that charge them extortionate rates with unpayable interest rates to smuggle them into the country. Plus many illegal women end up as sex slaves.

I certainly don't begrudge them free healthcare and social security isn't an issue because most work, being scared to make contact with the state. The problem needs a solution more for the welfare of the illegal immigrants than anything else.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/26/2006 2:10:11 PM   
MasterRenegade77


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From: Upstate N.Y. (Broome Co.)
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Kentucky Drinking Rule....
   A Mexican drinks his beer and suddenly throws his glass in the air,
pulls out his pistol and shoots the glass to pieces. He says, "In Mexico
our glasses are so cheap we don't need to drink from the same glass
twice."
  An Iraqi, obviously impressed by this, drinks his beer, throws his
glass into the air, pulls out his AK-47 and shoots the glass to pieces.
He says, "In Iraq we have so much sand to make glasses that we don't
need to drink  out of the same glass twice either.
  The Kentucky boy, cool as a cucumber, picks up his beer and drinks
it, throws his glass into the air, pulls out his gun and shoots the
Mexican and the Iraqi, and catches his glass. He says, "In America we have
so many illegal Mexicans and Arabs that we don't have to drink with the
same ones twice.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Interesting Perspective on Immigration - 4/26/2006 2:19:27 PM   
meatcleaver


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That speaks for itself.

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)
Profile   Post #: 60
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