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Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 3:07:03 PM   
lalleee


Posts: 36
Joined: 7/8/2010
Status: offline 		I tried a scene for the first time. The first time was fine. was slapped, hair pulled and pinched. But on the second date,  it got too rough. I should have guessed when he suggested to set a safe word. I was smacked whole a lot, my head yanked and my back arched far back from some hard hair pulling, pinching, spanking and tickling.   He ordered me to do things i dont like and when I hesitated, all the punishment fell and  pain kept comming and I really didn't enjoy them, wanted to stop but for the life of me, I could not say the safe word. I don't know why. But it wasn't because I wanted to please him. 
I couldn't cope with the pain and didn't know how to stop them because asking to stop brought more punishment. But could not say the word and instead, cried. I broke down and cried 3 times in the duration of an hour and half. 
But crying didn't stop him. He rather got more excited.  
When he softened up a bit I asked him if I could go home and he finally came down to earth and asked me why I wanted to go home. And I said I wanted to stop. So it stopped that way. Thank, god.
 I know it was all my fault. I was really being stupid not being able to say the word, putting myself in danger. I know. I'll do better next time - if there is next time. So please don't yell at me, please. 
  
Ok, here goes my question.  
Do you always only operate on safeword or do you read some other signs when sub doesn't seem to enjoy what's going on? Like crying?
How does sub crying make you feel and react? I mean not the kind of crying when she comes. Or are you unable to tell the difference between crying out of pain or orgasm? Or for some there is no difference that both are pleasurable and you don't bother to distinguish?
And when the sub has limits that are too tame and lame do you still respect them or just ignore and push it? 
Then what happens when the sub says the safe word everytime she doesn't like what you are doing to her?
I have very perversely tame and lame limits, even for a vanilla, like... giving and receving orals. But I did accept these when forced and beaten. 
But I wonder if I can say the safe word instead? That would be insanely annoying and a deal breaker?

And for the sub sisters,
Do you find the level of submission increase when you truly like someone? For me, I really didn't feel like doing the things I dislike for the guy. 
on the first day,  the coersion was pleasurable and I did like the things he forced but they were very brief. The second day it got intense and I had to stretch my limits further and did not like it one bit. 
Does that say I have no submissive bone in me or was it because I didn't like the person enough to submit to him?             
 
  

< Message edited by lalleee -- 8/21/2010 3:15:11 PM >
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 3:25:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		A valuable lesson for you, you are one of the people who cannot play with a safeword. It is an important bit of self knowledge..

My first play experiences revolved around using "green, yellow, and red" as a form of communicating how I was doing, so that I could be conditioned to tell him via color how I was feeling. It seems that was a good way to approach it, conditioning the part of my mind that is dealing with pain to respond this way.

I do not know how well you knew this person who did this to you, but it sounds like the problem wasn't safewords themselves, but playing with someone that does not know you well

_____________________________

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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 3:32:55 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		Wow, ok that was alot of questions.

First of all, if you are going to play with someone, it helps if you know each other at least a bit.

If you cannot use a safeword, then use a hand gesture or something agreed upon.

Some people like crying, so it won't stop them, some would stop immediately if someone was crying because it would indicate distress. But some subs cry when happy.

I don't have a level of submission; I can only submit to someone I am really, really into.

I have a pain arousal threshold, the more sexually aroused I am, the more pain I can deal with, but I am not a masochist.

You need to discuss this with someone prior to playing.

Also, your limits are your limits, no one but you can define them as tame or lame. Some limits can be pushed with the right person. I would not think limits would be pushed the first or second time around though.

Whether you are submissive or not is up to you to define; I would not go freaking out about it at this juncture after such a short time. Give yourself time.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 3:37:50 PM   
texangael


Posts: 167
Joined: 12/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I know it was all my fault.
No, it was not.  You have a lot of emotions to sort through right now, but do not fall into the trap of blaming yourself entirely.  Whenever you find yourself thinking/saying "it was all my fault" take a moment to tell yourself that no, it was NOT all your fault.  And keep doing that until you believe it.
quote:

I was really being stupid not being able to say the word, putting myself in danger. I know.
From what you describe, I would not say you were stupid, either.  The question you should ask yourself is why could you not use the safeword?  What about the scene or the moment or your own mental/emotional state kept you from using it?  Something was holding you back; understanding that something is the order of the day.
quote:

Do you always only operate on safeword or do you read some other signs when sub doesn't seem to enjoy what's going on? Like crying?
I don't use safewords at all.  I don't use them for reasons that parallel the experience you had.  Merely having an agreed-upon safeword is no guarantee that the submissive will use it, or be in a frame of mind to use it.  Moreover, no safeword absolves the top in a scene from ultimate responsibility to not do any lasting harm.

The person you were with failed to spot the signs, failed to see that you were in distress and that the scene was not going well.  That happens.  I've had play moments that have derailed without warning--some little thing triggered a bad reaction in my slave.  The challenge for both parties is to recognize when those bad reactions occur and to respond appropriately so as not to hurt one another.

Yes, if you have a safeword, you should be willing to use it.  If you are going to have difficulty using it, then don't have a safeword--and make sure the top knows and accepts that he needs to pay attention.

However, I repeat what I said at the very beginning of this: This is not all your fault, and you were not stupid.  Mistakes were made by you and by him.  Learn from those mistakes, but don't berate yourself over them.


_____________________________

"Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no Try."
Corny movie cliche that just happens to be true.

(in reply to lalleee)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:25:29 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lalleee
I couldn't cope with the pain and didn't know how to stop them because asking to stop brought more punishment.


Hi lalleee,

This quote stood out for me. Why would asking someone to stop, in plain English, bring punishment? You are two people engaging in a game. Safewords can be useful during scenes, but some near-stranger has no business allowing strict protocol to trump common sense.

Your play partner strikes me as a sadist, or a dumbf**k. Either way, your play with him will get even more uncomfortable. Take a break from this person. The responsibility for your safety and pleasure rested with him--not you.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to lalleee)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:25:32 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I am paraphrasing DG here.....

People confuse a safe words with seat belts and fire extinguishers.

If your house is on fire, you can yell Fire extinguisher! at it till you are blue in the face. The fire may or may not go out.

If you yell "seatbelt!" just before you crash you may or may not be hurt.

The yelling will have had nothing to do with it.

If you don't know your partner and your partner doesn't know you, safe words are worse than meaningless.

You think you have a way out, but you have no way of being sure.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:30:17 PM   
texangael


Posts: 167
Joined: 12/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Why would asking someone to stop, in plain English, bring punishment?

Because they had agreed to a safeword.  Paradoxically, within the scene she wasn't asking to stop, and it's quite possible the top may have felt she was asking for more.

quote:

The responsibility for your safety and pleasure rested with him--not you.
That's not exactly true.  Everyone ultimately is responsible for their own safety and their own pleasure.

< Message edited by texangael -- 8/21/2010 4:33:34 PM >

_____________________________

"Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no Try."
Corny movie cliche that just happens to be true.

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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:32:02 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: texangael

quote:

The responsibility for your safety and pleasure rested with him--not you.
That's not exactly true.  Everyone ultimately is responsible for their own safety and their own pleasure.



I totally agree with that. More people should realize that.

(in reply to texangael)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:43:08 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Because they had agreed to a safeword.


So an agreement to a safeword means humanity flies out the window? Not if the Top wants to continue the relationship with a real girl--not a fantasy. Short sighted of him.

quote:

Everyone ultimately is responsible for their own safety and their own pleasure.


During a scene? When the poor girl couldn't even utter a safeword? Hardly.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:46:28 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		January, someone should not be in a scene where they are unable to leave, or speak, with someone they don't know very well. That is just stupid.

I understand your point about how HE should be listening, but we all know that you cannot predict the behavior of someone you don't know well or trust.

I would never let someone tie me up or gag me who I had not already scened with a ton of times.

(in reply to January)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:51:48 PM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

Because they had agreed to a safeword.


So an agreement to a safeword means humanity flies out the window? Not if the Top wants to continue the relationship with a real girl--not a fantasy. Short sighted of him.

quote:

Everyone ultimately is responsible for their own safety and their own pleasure.


During a scene? When the poor girl couldn't even utter a safeword? Hardly.

January


This is where it is vital a good deal of trust needs to be built between the dom and sub. It is a fine line to walk when we feel it is time to push our sub's limits a bit more and crossing that line into breaking trust. I have played with a dom whom I trust implicitly and yes, I asked to have my limits pushed back as much as possible and they agreed. Yes we had a safe word set out and yes I could have used it at anytime yet I wanted and needed to push a few limits back and even have some broken; which that goal was achieved. I don't recommend doing what I done for everyone though there are exceptions to anything and in my case, I had the trust, the dom pulled an unexpectyed surprise and in the end there was no negative repercussions on my part or theirs.


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Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

(in reply to January)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:54:30 PM   
texangael


Posts: 167
Joined: 12/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

So an agreement to a safeword means humanity flies out the window? Not if the Top wants to continue the relationship with a real girl--not a fantasy. Short sighted of him.
It's called mis-communication.  Happens all the time.

By your logic the safeword is meaningless--which would leave the top free to disregard it because she didn't say "stop" in plain English.

As I said previously--I don't use safewords, and what the OP related is a good example of why.  However, when people do, they become part of the communications between top and bottom.  From what the OP recounted, the top greatly misread the situation.  That doesn't make him a sadist or a dumbfuck any more than her not using the safeword makes her stupid.  It makes him imperfect.  It means he made a mistake.  What that mistake is is for the top and the OP to work out.

quote:

During a scene? When the poor girl couldn't even utter a safeword? Hardly.

Before, during, and after a scene.  Before, during, and after a vanilla date.  Before, during, and after meals even.  Every damn time, without exception.


_____________________________

"Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no Try."
Corny movie cliche that just happens to be true.

(in reply to January)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:58:07 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with you red. Knowing your partner is a good idea.

However, to my mind that wasn't the poster's question. The OP didn't ask about the wisdom of meeting with this person.. (That's why she asked us... "don't yell at me").

She asked about safewords and when to use them.

If she can't use a safeword because of some block, I want to try to reassure her that her partner isn't permitted to beat her because she uses plain English--by virtue of some mythical uber BDSM scene rules and regulations. Neither can every possibility be negotiated beforehand. Some decency and empathy in the Top--even in a straight up sadist--is required.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to sexyred1)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 4:58:27 PM   
texangael


Posts: 167
Joined: 12/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

January, someone should not be in a scene where they are unable to leave, or speak, with someone they don't know very well. That is just stupid.
As I understand the OP, she was not gagged or otherwise silenced, but was psychologically unable to use the safeword.  Indeed, much of the confusion expressed in the OP stems from that unexpected inability on her part.

She reacted in an unexpected way to the scene, the top failed to spot the signs of that reaction, with some pretty negative consequences for her.

It happens.  It's where the "risk" aspect of play rears its ugly head. 

That's several miles from "stupid".


_____________________________

"Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no Try."
Corny movie cliche that just happens to be true.

(in reply to sexyred1)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 5:08:52 PM   
texangael


Posts: 167
Joined: 12/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

If she can't use a safeword because of some block, I want to try to reassure her that her partner isn't permitted to beat her because she uses plain English--by virtue of some mythical uber BDSM scene rules and regulations. Neither can every possibility be negotiated beforehand. Some decency and empathy in the Top--even in a straight up sadist--is required.

Nothing is "required" in a top but that a bottom is willing to play with him.  Everything else is luck of the draw.  To pretend otherwise is dangerously naive.

For the OP, what matters most is the learning--which is a part of dealing with the experience and healing the hurt it caused.  She needs to understand why she could not utter the safeword, or understand at a minimum that she could enter a headspace where that is possible. That understanding will affect how she scenes and plays in the future--and that is exactly what should happen.  One would hope that the top in this situation will learn to read things better, but he's not here to present his side so there's little we can comment on about that.

Mistakes were made.  People tend to do that now and again--make mistakes.  What makes them tolerable is that people learn from them so as to prevent the negative outcomes in future situations.


_____________________________

"Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no Try."
Corny movie cliche that just happens to be true.

(in reply to January)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 5:09:14 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: texangael
By your logic the safeword is meaningless--which would leave the top free to disregard it because she didn't say "stop" in plain English.


No, dude, that would be your mind inventing my logic.

Oops. Must be an example of your mis-communication.

January


_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to texangael)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 5:12:14 PM   
texangael


Posts: 167
Joined: 12/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Oops. Must be an example of your mis-communication.
Miscommunication certainly.  I won't bother educating you on whose.

_____________________________

"Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no Try."
Corny movie cliche that just happens to be true.

(in reply to January)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 5:20:03 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		Shame that the OP has not been back. This debate could go on and on.

(in reply to texangael)
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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 5:40:38 PM   
Mistletoe


Posts: 288
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline 		As a new sub myself, finding my limits and pain threshold is something I had to rely on my Dom partner to help me with. There is no way without some experimentation that I would have known that info beforehand. I know in my case it went fairly well and I learned much from the experience. I also found out that I must connect and like my partner to be able to submit on any level. The more I like him the easier it is to allow him to push my limits. I at first questioned my judgment as to if I picked the right person to play with for the first time. You will never really know until you are in the scene.

This advice really hit a note with me... this indeed was a valuable learning experience for you hon so remember that...
"This is not all your fault, and you were not stupid. Mistakes were made by you and by him. Learn from those mistakes, but don't berate yourself over them."

< Message edited by Mistletoe -- 8/21/2010 5:41:58 PM >

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RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits - 8/21/2010 7:01:21 PM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		People misunderstand safewords a lot. But I don't get that analogy above. Few if anyone actually thinks a safeword acts like a fire extinguisher or a seat belt - that is an obviously foolish idea.

First of all, the word "STOP" is a perfectly acceptable safe word. So is "If you hit me one more time I will fill your car with concrete."
Secondly, from a legal point of view, if you don't operate with any safe word at all, it is rape. No ifs, no ands, no buts. That is, if you will continue to do what you want, no matter what you victim says or tries to communicate, then that is rape. But there are many default safe words, including the two I mentioned in the First point above. Most people use them even if they don't realize it.

But that is generally not what BDSM people mean when they talk about safe words. There are three commonly used safe word methodologies.

1. For SAM's (Smart assed Masochists - people that like pain but don't submit) They use Red/Yellow/Green (or similar) safeword methods to control the scene. They do this even if they are a 300 lb body builder, totally un bound, being flogged by a 90 lb woman. Safewords let them keep control, which they insist on. It doesn't matter if they have been playing with the same person for 50 years and that person knows everything aboutr them - they STILL want the control, so they use safewords to keep it.

2. For Role players. This group of people are the main reason why safe words became popular. They want to be able to say "No, stop, please don't hit me with that red flogger." and have you pick it up and use it on them. To enable them to role-play and avoid legal charges or 'mistakes', they use safe words. This way they get to 'lie' to their Dom without having to worry about their Dom misinterpreting them. The better they are at playing means they can even fool someone that knows them for 50 years, so again, no matter how well you know the Dom, you still want the safewords because you think you are good enough actor to fool them. This may be arrogance on the part of the sub, but just as pain sluts brag about how much they can take, slave subs brag about how good they are at fooling Doms.

3. Non-verbal signals. These are used when the sub is unable to speak. Many times people think the Dom knows the Sub well enough to do without these. Sometimes, they are even right. But so what? There is no good reason not to use something like this. Doing so is not an indication of skill or knowledge, just of arrogance - of showing off. It's kind of like doing a trapeze act without a net - you do it to prove something to other people, not for yourself. Me, I have nothing to prove, so I use non-verbal signals whenever I gag someone. If you don't think I have skills, then put your ass where your mouth is. Or is that the other way around?


(in reply to Mistletoe)
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