RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits

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juliaoceania -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/21/2010 7:14:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 Shame that the OP has not been back. This debate could go on and on. Yes, and I am thinking it will in a way that will not help her... people are already sniping about whether or not safewords work or they don't.... it did not work for her, and this is what the issue is. This is not a theoretical thread, this is about a real experience. Just an opinion, but if people want to snipe on each other about safewords they should go and create that thread.... I hope the OP comes back

CaringandReal -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/21/2010 7:18:10 PM)
"But I wonder if I can say the safe word instead? That would be insanely annoying and a deal breaker? " I think you need to try to figure out why you didn't use the safeword. Think about the feelings you were having each time you decided not to say it--they should give you some clues. In general, lots of new submissives who play casually have this particular problem. Some people who prey on this type of person know about this problem, and use it to their advantage. I've seen it in person at public scenes any number of times. You can tell when a sub is either too proud to safeword or too scared of displeasing her partner whom she looks up to by using it, or she's afraid her rep as a "fun" bottom will be ruined if she does, and you can tell when someone ruthlessly uses this vulnerability for their own satisfaction. I have never been in a safword situation, but I understandbeing proud and wanting to prove to someone you are a good submissive or not displease them. You need to figure out what your own motives were here. They may have been quite different from what i stated above, although this is a pretty common situation. Once you understand your own motives during that event, you can work on devising ways to thwart them so they don't lead you into increasingly dangerous or unpleasant situations.

juliaoceania -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/21/2010 7:23:42 PM)
I have been in the situation where I called colors.... I was rather new at this getting tied up and beaten thing.... As I got more experienced with the same partner I needed to call them and couldn't. My mouth wouldn't work, and I couldn't say it. I cried instead. He hit me a couple more times and I cried harder. He looked into my eyes and then he stopped because he knew I wasn't doing so good. So it is not only new subs that can have trouble with saying a safeword, but it can happen anytime. Which is why they can be good tools, but they are only one of many tools a dominant should be using to keep you safe. I hope the OP comes back and reads this thread

mstrjx -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/21/2010 7:40:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I hope the OP comes back and reads this thread As the OP's profile shows Korea as her home, it could very well have something to do with time zone differences and it being Sunday during the day by this point. Jeff

juliaoceania -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/21/2010 7:43:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I hope the OP comes back and reads this thread As the OP's profile shows Korea as her home, it could very well have something to do with time zone differences and it being Sunday during the day by this point. Jeff I just realized I am blowing my position on LP's thread, sometimes I do care when I give out advice after all. It is really hard to be a new at play and have the situation that came up for the OP... this is why I need to feel really comfy with people who I allow to use pain play on me.

mstrjx -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/21/2010 7:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I just realized I am blowing my position on LP's thread, sometimes I do care when I give out advice after all. It is really hard to be a new at play and have the situation that came up for the OP... this is why I need to feel really comfy with people who I allow to use pain play on me. It's okay to care, Julia, just don't do it so often it tarnishes your reputation.[:D] There was a time when I played with a lot of new people. I can't say they all knew me all that well, but I can probably say that they liked me and trusted me enough to play with them, and yes that did involve bondage, gagging, painplay, etc. We would go over safewords, and I would even go so far as to use the safeword as a question during play. Invariably, each person understood what I was asking and shake their head 'no'. I also knew to pay close attention to the reactions of what I was doing and to stop when I thought it was appropriate. That I've probably heard a safeword in all these years fewer than the fingers of one hand could mean that I stopped too early, but for me I always took receiving a safeword as an indication that I 'wasn't' paying enough attention. I'm not saying this to boast I'm a model top, but if anyone reads this and it resonates positively with them on some level, then it's worth it. Jeff

laurell3 -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/21/2010 8:14:41 PM)
I don't agree that you were stupid. I do agree that it's possible you didn't really think this through or communicate enough with him. I personally don't usually tend to play full out on a second meeting most of the time. He doesn't know you well enough to know what and when he is pushing and he should. Crying is not necessarily indicative of only just orgasm or pain. Crying can be an emotional release that occurs spontaneously and isn't indicative of anything other than an intense reaction. I discuss this with my partners prior to play so they know it can happen and what it means when it does. I suggest if you're going to play with this guy again, you do the same and let him know that for you, crying means stop and ask me what's going on. The problem is that our responses when we are enjoying something and processing pain and when we are not and really having a hard time can be rather similar. I think it's silly to assume there's any fault here or that a dominant is a mind reader. I think the focus on the safeword is not really the issue here and a safe word shouldn't be the catchall for communication about play. Don't worry about the fact that you didn't use it. Do worry about how you're going to talk to him about what happened and communicate what this scene was to you. If someone is interpreting your rules as tame or lame, they may not be compatible with you. Not all D/s relationships involve heavy bdsm pain, it's certainly not an indication that you're bad, not submissive or wrong that you had a bad scene. I think you really need to sit down with this guy and talk to him openly and honestly and be prepared to really ask questions to determine if you really are compatible and accept that it's not an issue of fault if you are not. Good luck to you and hang in there, I believe you will find there are varying approaches to bdsm all over the spectrum, you may have just picked someone that's on the opposite end that you are.

aldompdx -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/21/2010 10:51:09 PM)
I hear a TOTAL lack of consent in your interaction. That makes it abuse, which is a criminal offense. Consent is about establishing the extent of boundaries and limits in advance. It is not: "I am going to narcissistically start doing whatever the hell I want to you, and it is your responsibility to stop me." The purpose of a safeword is not to set a limit, but to enforce those which have already been set, or to reset a limit to a lower level due to an unanticipated bad experience. A limit is a limit. PERIOD. A limit is not a preference, which may be pushed or explored. Until you have more experience with a particular partner, it is good to set your limits low. There is absolutely no need to "max out" right from the start. As both of you learn more about each other's methods and styles of communication, both verbal and non-verbal, then you gain confidence to appropriately change your limits. Extreme examples would include: (1) you set a limit against getting married on the first date, you don't need to use a safeword at the alter; (2) you set a limit against getting pregnant on the first date, you don't need to use a safeword during unprotected penetration; (3) you set a limit against skydiving, you don't need to use a safeword after you have been pushed out of the airplane, and the existence of a ripcord does not constitute consent. (You don't need to use a safeword in these examples, because your limit has already been violated, you have taken personal responsibility for your safety, and you have abandoned a clearly abusive partner).

texangael -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/22/2010 6:28:47 AM)
quote: I hear a TOTAL lack of consent in your interaction. That makes it abuse, which is a criminal offense. I suggest you work on your listening skills.

crazyml -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/22/2010 6:35:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lalleee I know it was all my fault. I was really being stupid not being able to say the word, putting myself in danger. I know. I'll do better next time - if there is next time. So please don't yell at me, please. Tell ya what, I wont yell at ya this time - but if you say it's all your fault again, I'll come a yellin ;-) Seriously - First, reluctance to use a safeword isn't that unusual - sometimes it's a desire not to disappoint, sometimes it's pride but I've played with subs who really struggled. Having multiple levels of safeword as julia mentioned can be useful. Secondly, while I don't expect Doms to have telepathic powers (and I certainly don't have any myself), I simply wouldn't play that hard with a sub unless I felt I knew her well enough to read her reactions and react appropriately. I'm not going to say your D-type is a "dangerous dom" but, he's either going too fast for you and (since he couldn't tell your distress) too fast for him. OR... he really fucking got off on abusing you. You need to check with yourself which of the two you think it is. If it's the former - then I'd recommend having a good natter with him, explain your concerns, and explain that perhaps you both need to move up the intensity scale a little more slowly. I have to say (and I'm probably being way too concerned) but when you said - quote: my head yanked and my back arched far back from some hard hair pulling I did go "eek" - having your head yanked, and your back arched over much can be potentially quite dangerous - do a search on here for one of the threads on face slapping - It's not necesarily dangerous, but it can be if done recklessly. quote: Ok, here goes my question. Do you always only operate on safeword or do you read some other signs when sub doesn't seem to enjoy what's going on? Like crying? Bluntly - only a total jackass would operate solely on a safeword. I try to read all the signs, and will err on the side of caution. So .... I've played with girls who have cried, screamed, sobbed and whimpered - and not stopped, but NEVER on the first couple of dates and only ever when I was completely confident that they would be pissed if I stopped. quote: How does sub crying make you feel and react? I mean not the kind of crying when she comes. For me it's an incredibly intimate thing. quote: Or are you unable to tell the difference between crying out of pain or orgasm? Or for some there is no difference that both are pleasurable and you don't bother to distinguish? In my (by no means extensive) experience, with some gals the two are impossible to separate. With others there's a clear difference - and yes, I'd tend to pay very close attention to the amount of pain my playmate is feeling. quote: And when the sub has limits that are too tame and lame do you still respect them or just ignore and push it? Limits are limits. Hard limits are hard limits - end of story. Yes, when I know someone I'll push their limits (more often than not only after discussing it), and with two partners I've had an agreement to "push" when they safeword - in other words to get them to withdraw it momentarily on the basis that they can use it again in a second if they want to - but it's a sign that I really do understand were they are (Green , Amber, Red works in the same way I guess) - but I'd really stress these were people I knew very well. quote: Then what happens when the sub says the safe word everytime she doesn't like what you are doing to her? Well - it may very well be that she'd just not right for me, or that she needs more confidence, reassurance - I'd talk to her about it. quote: I have very perversely tame and lame limits, even for a vanilla, like... giving and receving orals. But I did accept these when forced and beaten. Hmm... how do you feel about being forced now - do you feel violated? Was oral expressed as a serious, hard limit - or more of a preference? quote: But I wonder if I can say the safe word instead? That would be insanely annoying and a deal breaker? That's what safewords are for - and they have hugely important ramifications - a safeword is an unambiguous withdrawal of your consent. Once you've used it, unless you retract it then he's not got your consent.... If I absolutely had to have oral, then being safeworded every time I asked for it would be a deal breaker - sure... but if my goal was a full long term relationship, I'd be willing to do a lot of talking and working on it first. quote: And for the sub sisters, Do you find the level of submission increase when you truly like someone? For me, I really didn't feel like doing the things I dislike for the guy. on the first day, the coersion was pleasurable and I did like the things he forced but they were very brief. The second day it got intense and I had to stretch my limits further and did not like it one bit. Does that say I have no submissive bone in me or was it because I didn't like the person enough to submit to him? I'm not a sub sister but I'm gonna pitch in anyways ;-) - In most of my relationships my partners limits have flexed as we got to know and trust eachother - and quite a few times we've ended up enjoying things that might have been limits (or even hard limits) for one or other of us at the beginning. It doesn't say you have no submissive bone in you at all, nor that you didn't like the person enough to submit to him - I think it just means he went too far too fast. A good talk about it could very well solve the problem... if he eases back a bit now - you might be surprised at the things you're letting him do to you - and loving - in six months time ;-) So my advice fwiw - Have a talk, and good luck!

crazyml -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/22/2010 6:48:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit Secondly, from a legal point of view, if you don't operate with any safe word at all, it is rape. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Alas, a good lawyer would spin up plenty of ifs and buts - "So the defendant was used to spanking you so hard that you yelled 'stop'... I put it to you Ms X that when you said 'stop' it was merely an extension of your perverted sado-masochistic game, which as we've heard from LordUberdomX and MasterMegaCaneY you've been indulging in for quite some time...<meaningful glance towards jury box>" The only way to make it utterly unambiguous is to agree a safeword (which could very well be "Stop") before hand - and then to be able to prove that you'd agreed it, and then to prove that you'd used it.

DesFIP -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/22/2010 7:02:53 AM)
I can't use a safe word. I can tell him if I have a cramp, but emotional distress? No way. So tell the guy this. Tell him that if you stop communicating with him, that means there's a problem. Tap out instead of speaking. Lots of us find gestures easier than speech. Tell him what you do and don't want to try. But for a newbie, I suggest inclusion instead of exclusion. Meaning he can only do the things you list as doable instead of saying he can do anything except what's on the list. And start with stuff you know you'll like, stuff you've always dreamed of. Start with sensual and fluffy, fun, not painful and enduring.

Twoshoes -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/22/2010 1:56:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lalleee I couldn't cope with the pain and didn't know how to stop them because asking to stop brought more punishment. 'Play punishment' or 'funishment' is supposed to be enjoyable on atleast some level (pleasing your partner/liking pain and endorphines/liking the physical control, etc). quote: I'll do better next time - if there is next time. [...] Does that say I have no submissive bone in me or was it because I didn't like the person. enough to submit to him? After you recover from this (however long that takes), I recommend you start from the beginning, because you don't know what kind of submissive you are. It's possible to simply want to be lead by your male partner or to enjoy rough sex without handing over control or taking away the ability to give your own directions/input. It is actually pretty common to like 'rough sex' with no power exchange which is all I'm personally willing to do with someone I don't know well. It's still a good idea to communicate throughout. ___ For power exchange situations, I suggest you talk to other submissives to figure out what your personal motivations are: being lead, being controlled physically or mentally, resistance, pain, pleasing your partners, etc. I like StrongSpirit's post on safewords. They are most useful if you're supposed to be resisting. In your case, it might be useful to tell your partner he should keep asking for your feedback.

sinandhoney -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/22/2010 4:02:05 PM)
I think since you know you mentally couldn't say your safeword that you negotiate for the time being that stop and no means EXACTLY that. You know you can mentally think and say Stop when that is what you need. So for you that should be all the safeword you need. When you've grown enough with the partner you are with to want to try and play where stop and no doesn't mean for things to stop you can try it, but for now I'd stick with it ending the scene.

HisEvelyn -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/22/2010 11:19:01 PM)
I'm a slave who occasionally has trouble with the idea of safewording. I hate the idea of disappointing my Master by pulling him out of a scene when he is enjoying himself. A lot of that went away when Master explained to me, however, that he would be very angry with me if I did not safeword when I felt I needed it. That his mood would be far more ruined by knowing he was harming me beyond what I could take, than he would be by having to stop for a while and ensure my safety. We also have two levels of safeword, which also helps a lot. We have what we call a 'slow word', which I can use to let him know I'm getting close to what I can handle at that time and I need him to slow down just a little. That word is 'careful', and it's something I can easily remember to say if something hurts too much. So I don't feel like I'm 'ruining' the scene or stopping us cold, but it lets him know without a doubt where I'm at. And he also reads me very well. He knows the difference between my cries of pain in blissful ecstasy and my cries of just... PAIN. To this day, I've never completely had to safeword. I've slow-worded a few times, and it's been a really good experience. It makes me feel very connected to him. I feel safe even when he is beating my ass red and making me cry, because I know that beyond all the kink, he wants me safe and unharmed. :) I hope you figure this all out, because I think that unless true fear is your particular kink, feeling safe during a scene is paramount.

aldompdx -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/23/2010 12:31:00 AM)
This situation exemplifies how people who are relatively new or inexperienced could be inappropriately and adversely influenced by those here who profess to have "no limits." Everybody has limits. The important thing is gaining greater awareness of what one's limits really are, and how to express that awareness. Surrender is not by default, but by ongoing free choice from self will. The fundamental tenets of BDSM cannot be repeated enough: SSICK -- safe sane informed consensual kink.

lalleee -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/23/2010 1:50:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: January quote: ORIGINAL: lalleee I couldn't cope with the pain and didn't know how to stop them because asking to stop brought more punishment. Hi lalleee, This quote stood out for me. Why would asking someone to stop, in plain English, bring punishment? You are two people engaging in a game. Safewords can be useful during scenes, but some near-stranger has no business allowing strict protocol to trump common sense. Your play partner strikes me as a sadist, or a dumbf**k. Either way, your play with him will get even more uncomfortable. Take a break from this person. The responsibility for your safety and pleasure rested with him--not you. January January, I like the idea of using the plain english STOP as safeword. Good one. It's the easiest word to say at the moments when all I could think is to stop. Thanks. The guy is not so bad. He is nice. It was just that he isn't very experienced either.

lalleee -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/23/2010 2:29:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 January, someone should not be in a scene where they are unable to leave, or speak, with someone they don't know very well. That is just stupid. I understand your point about how HE should be listening, but we all know that you cannot predict the behavior of someone you don't know well or trust. I would never let someone tie me up or gag me who I had not already scened with a ton of times. Red, I didn't appreciate you calling me stupid. Sorry, but I'll have to flip. [sm=fingers.gif] Please kindly refrain from commenting on any of my posts from now on, thanks

lalleee -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/23/2010 2:33:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: January I agree with you red. Knowing your partner is a good idea. However, to my mind that wasn't the poster's question. The OP didn't ask about the wisdom of meeting with this person.. (That's why she asked us... "don't yell at me"). She asked about safewords and when to use them. January That's right! thanks January.

lalleee -> RE: Safe word and pushing sub's limits (8/23/2010 2:43:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit People misunderstand safewords a lot. But I don't get that analogy above. Few if anyone actually thinks a safeword acts like a fire extinguisher or a seat belt - that is an obviously foolish idea. First of all, the word "STOP" is a perfectly acceptable safe word. So is "If you hit me one more time I will fill your car with concrete." Secondly, from a legal point of view, if you don't operate with any safe word at all, it is rape. No ifs, no ands, no buts. That is, if you will continue to do what you want, no matter what you victim says or tries to communicate, then that is rape. But there are many default safe words, including the two I mentioned in the First point above. Most people use them even if they don't realize it. But that is generally not what BDSM people mean when they talk about safe words. There are three commonly used safe word methodologies. 1. For SAM's (Smart assed Masochists - people that like pain but don't submit) They use Red/Yellow/Green (or similar) safeword methods to control the scene. They do this even if they are a 300 lb body builder, totally un bound, being flogged by a 90 lb woman. Safewords let them keep control, which they insist on. It doesn't matter if they have been playing with the same person for 50 years and that person knows everything aboutr them - they STILL want the control, so they use safewords to keep it. 2. For Role players. This group of people are the main reason why safe words became popular. They want to be able to say "No, stop, please don't hit me with that red flogger." and have you pick it up and use it on them. To enable them to role-play and avoid legal charges or 'mistakes', they use safe words. This way they get to 'lie' to their Dom without having to worry about their Dom misinterpreting them. The better they are at playing means they can even fool someone that knows them for 50 years, so again, no matter how well you know the Dom, you still want the safewords because you think you are good enough actor to fool them. This may be arrogance on the part of the sub, but just as pain sluts brag about how much they can take, slave subs brag about how good they are at fooling Doms. 3. Non-verbal signals. These are used when the sub is unable to speak. Many times people think the Dom knows the Sub well enough to do without these. Sometimes, they are even right. But so what? There is no good reason not to use something like this. Doing so is not an indication of skill or knowledge, just of arrogance - of showing off. It's kind of like doing a trapeze act without a net - you do it to prove something to other people, not for yourself. Me, I have nothing to prove, so I use non-verbal signals whenever I gag someone. If you don't think I have skills, then put your ass where your mouth is. Or is that the other way around? Thank you StrongSprit for explaining all the safewords. Very educational. awesome! [sm=yourock.gif]

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