RE: Monogamy Agonistes (Full Version)

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Icarys -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 7:38:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterpdg

Enough time on this nonsense. As I said, good luck to all. I really am surprised I angered people, but some people like to get angry and nothing is more aggravating than the truth. I am not one of them and hope every one on here finds all the joy life has to offer.

Some of the things you've said may or may not be truth but I think it's more how your coming across saying them..Like the dumb submission has no value thing.

Some of the bad remarks stem from that and maybe others stem from people that aren't willing to accept a truth when they see it. Who knows..I haven't read the whole thread so I'm not sure of everything that has been said.

Take care.



Twoshoes -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 7:43:17 AM)

I finally read your detailed views in your profile, masterpdg.

"Hates: Writing"
Well, you hide it very well then. [;)]


Actually, I was going to write something poignant, but I got distracted by the picture of the brown puppy - it's so cute.



sexyred1 -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 7:44:05 AM)

LOL [:D]



susie -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 7:54:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterpdg

Not everyone has to be like me. But if you say you belong or want to belong to a person completely, then you have to. Thats is all.


I belong to someone. I adore him and would do anything for him. But I can assure you that if I catch him cheating he is out of the door, Master or not.

I do not accept anyone lying to me and cheating is just that.



sravaka -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 10:41:49 AM)

quote:

but to be honest when you post some thoughts (at the prodding of a very intelligent and sweet girl who is in real trouble) and get attacked


Sweetie? I didn't prod you... I dared you.

Perhaps now you see why I put it that way.... even apart from the other point I was making about submissives not necessarily being entirely free of sadism. :)


A touch of substance, since this is <cough> all my fault....

As a subly person who aspires intermittently to extremes, I hear this argument all the time-- how can you wish to deny your master pleasures he wishes to seek with others and still call yourself a slave? etc. etc. etc. The demographic part of the argument (that there are not enough decent masters to go around and therefore we are *obliged* to share or be with defective, left over masters) I have not heard in many years. That part I still find quite silly. Even as a prospective slave-y type, I am in no rush and am entirely capable of being happy alone. I'm also committed to remaining happily alone rather than settling for a situation that will surely lead to misery both for me and for prospective partners.

The other part does give me some pause.... (I have heard it stated in less categorical, one-size-fits-all ways, which helps).... but my conclusion is that for me it is damn near pointless to think about these things in abstract, theoretical terms. What could be more personal?? If there is a particular prospective master, with a particular take on polyamory and particular way of relating to me? then, fine, it's entirely worth stewing about it, wondering what I am capable of by way of trust and/or compersion, and what he might be capable of by way of actual, active *mastery.*

I'd love to see further discussion of those angles (there were hints of beginnings many pages ago), but clearly it would require a new thread.

Anyway... sincere apologies to all for being reckless with my dares.

And masterpdg? Welcome to the boards. :)

--sravaka



AquaticSub -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 11:14:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterpdg

I am fairly sure I never used the word fake. Interesting that it should be used repeatedly in response. I fully believe that polygamy is not necessary for a good relationship. I say only that a woman completely serious about belong and being owned should never try to limit her Master's enjoyment and understand that cultural biases should not stand in the way of dedication to service that is all. I hope every young lady on here finds the Master of her dreams, but no one has addressed the substantive arguments.


She isn't limiting his power. She's limiting the men that she is interested in being in a relationship with. Her not being interested in a poly dom is like her not being interested in a man with kids. She just isn't interested.

Just because you want to be with her doesn't mean she has to be with you - no matter how domly you are, you can't just go "Here bitch, this is the relationship I want and I think you're hot so come suck my cock". She gets a say in the relationships she wants.

The idea that poly avoid heartbreak is just utter bullshit - we're poly, I just got my heart broken. Crazy!

The problem with you, OP, is that you jump to assumptions to "prove" your preferences as correct. Women who prefer monogamy are wired to monogamous. It's like being gay or straight. They don't prefer to be liked to, they just like what they like. The same way they seek a dominant instead of a submissive.

I can see where one could feel that, if a slave chooses to belong to someone completely, she would have to obey his every order regarding poly.

But shouldn't that make them more selective regarding who they submit to? Shouldn't that make them more cautious and, if they know there is something they just can't handle, doesn't that put the burden on them to make damn sure that the man they are submitting to will never want that?



NuevaVida -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 11:15:48 AM)

~ Fast Reply ~

Just wow.  The ignorance being spewed by the OP and his subsequent posts is astounding.

My thoughts, in general:

  • I do not live for my Master or agree to virtually everything he wants.  This doesn't mean I don't DO everything he wants, but - by his and my shared moral code - I speak up when what he wants of me would mean not being true to myself or causing me harm.  He wants an individual who wishes to be an individual. In other words, he wants to own an independent human.  He enjoys that.
  • He wishes to own only one person.  If he plays with others, he wants me involved.  He views his life as a shared life with me, and wants to experience his pleasures with me included.
  • Our relationship is the priority here.  He is not.  I am not.  We have come together and created a relationship that he is in charge of, but his charge - by his choosing - looks out for the well beings of the individuals within the relationship, and for the overall health and success of the relationship.
  • There's this thing called human dynamic.  People do not fit into cookie cutters. Not every slave is wired the same, nor is ever master.  Life is kinda cool like that.
  • I know of slaves whose masters have full control over them, and who LIKE them to be feisty and even combative sometimes.  It amuses him to tweak her moods to create just the reactions he wants.  He does it for sport, and she loves it and hates it at the same time.  By your posts, you're saying they're not a "real" M/s dynamic. 
I could go on, but I'm not sure the point.  I've seen this kind of view before, though.  I've lived with it.  And I found the master was so enslaved to his own ideals, he sold himself short. 



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 11:44:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

She isn't limiting his power. She's limiting the men that she is interested in being in a relationship with. Her not being interested in a poly dom is like her not being interested in a man with kids. She just isn't interested.

I think this hits the nail on the head-the OP seems to be muddling up limits within a relationship with criteria for selecting a partner.

A couple of things, OP:

-you said somewhere above that you were surprised that nobody tackled your suggestion that women would be saving themselves a lot of heartbreak if they accepted poly men. The reason nobody spoke about it was basic logic: it only becomes an issue if we accept your initial premise that men who say they want monogamy are lying. This is something that I still haven't seen you present any evidence for.

If men who say they want monogamy are not lying, then going for poly relationships will not stop women's hearts being broken. Until you can prove your initial statement (which most people on this thread seem to disagree with), your second statement is not worth discussing, which is why nobody has really bothered to discuss it.

-you also said that you were surprised you angered people. By saying men are inherently polygamous and that anyone who says otherwise is automatically lying to get into a woman's knickers you have called the present and previous partners of a lot of women on this thread liars. Are you surprised you have annoyed them? (I say annoyed because I think you are seeing anger where there is none-people are irritated, yes, but they aren't angry.)

You have repeatedly implied that having criteria you dislike with which to choose a relationship prevents the relationship from being somehow 'proper' D/s. A lot of women on this thread have criteria you dislike. Are you surprised you have annoyed them?

You have repeatedly condescended and refused to give evidence to back up your points. People don't like being condescended to, and people often dislike random assertions being thrown around with no information to back them up. Are you surprised you have annoyed them?

Because if you really are surprised this thread went badly then I wonder how much empathy you have. This thread does not show you in a particularly good light.



thornhappy -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 12:49:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterpdg
sexyred -

that was silly mischaracterization that was beneath you.

I do not cheat. Cheating involved lying and sneaking around. I think women may have not met the ONE for all sorts of reasons. The vast majority are frauds; Im sure you've picked that up.

I do not think everyone is poly (although it is certainly an older and longer historical norm), only that most men like numerous women (it is amazing this is controversial).

RULES FOR SUBMISSION - that is exactly the kind of thing that undermines what is beautiful about this life.

I may have missed it, but does the wife/slave/sub get to be poly too? 

When blood typing came about, the finding that many women cheated on men was a scandal.  I think it's about 40% in the population at large.

btw, OP, it would be useful to post a question instead of pasting your profile or journal entries to the board.



LaTigresse -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 12:51:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterpdg

Enough time on this nonsense. As I said, good luck to all. I really am surprised I angered people, but some people like to get angry and nothing is more aggravating than the truth. I am not one of them and hope every one on here finds all the joy life has to offer.


So you begin a thread about nonsense then presume to assume the people replying, some sadists like myself that enjoy poking sharp sticks, even when you are too obtuse to recognise the poke, are ANGRY?? Then you behave like a child and flounce off when the thread didn't go the way you had hoped.

Again I say, your posts have certainly not increased the number of men I count as respected. You've allowed yourself to be played by some very intelligent, many of them submissive, individuals. Don't feel special, we get characters like you on a regular basis. You all come, spout off your religioun from your self built pedestals and then disappear.

Your points of view add nothing to the forums other than a temporary bit of entertainment value.



sexyred1 -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 12:55:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterpdg

Enough time on this nonsense. As I said, good luck to all. I really am surprised I angered people, but some people like to get angry and nothing is more aggravating than the truth. I am not one of them and hope every one on here finds all the joy life has to offer.


So you begin a thread about nonsense then presume to assume the people replying, some sadists like myself that enjoy poking sharp sticks, even when you are too obtuse to recognise the poke, are ANGRY?? Then you behave like a child and flounce off when the thread didn't go the way you had hoped.

Again I say, your posts have certainly not increased the number of men I count as respected. You've allowed yourself to be played by some very intelligent, many of them submissive, individuals. Don't feel special, we get characters like you on a regular basis. You all come, spout off your religioun from your self built pedestals and then disappear.

Your points of view add nothing to the forums other than a temporary bit of entertainment value.



This.

It is quite fascinating how many multi-syllabic words the OP used, but he cannot tell the difference between being upset and liking to poke sharp sticks at the self righteous.




Twoshoes -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 12:59:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

quote:

but to be honest when you post some thoughts (at the prodding of a very intelligent and sweet girl who is in real trouble) and get attacked


Sweetie? I didn't prod you... I dared you.
even apart from the other point I was making about submissives not necessarily being entirely free of sadism. :)

A touch of substance, since this is <cough> all my fault....


Twas, you, eh? How devious of you to encourage someone to embarass themselves. [;)]

quote:


I'd love to see further discussion of those angles (there were hints of beginnings many pages ago), but clearly it would require a new thread.


The worst part about threads like these is that even if topics for discussion come up somewhere, it is impossible to explore them.



CeriseNin -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 1:13:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: masterpdg

A few words on monogamy because they seem necessary. It is difficult to think of an idea that has been more damaging to women in this lifestyle particularly. From a theoretical perspective it undermines dominance and submission as it is the slave/sub placing a jealously and selfishness above her owner’s desires. It is an attempt by property to limit her owner’s pleasure, use and training. Indeed, breaking the deeply ingrained societal bias towards this historically recent concept is crucial to the proper training of a woman. Ultimately, a slave lives and wants to live for her owner’s pleasure not to retard that pleasure and when she can accept that it is normal for any man, let alone an owner of women, to seek numerous pleasures and conquests, she will gain a deeper is not broadly appreciated joy of knowing her surrender is without strings and that she did not have to limit her owner’s pleasure to find her happiness.

That was, of course, a theoretic discussion of power dynamics. There are equally important pragmatic concerns. Initially, many men who agree to the idea of monogamy are simply appeasing (a bad quality in Chamberlin or a Master) and will stray when opportunity presents itself (this is not unique to BDSM obviously although as many into the lifestyle are a touch hypersexual, it may have greater frequency although I have not studied the issue). Where as a man who is honest and upfront about requiring the true submission of his slaves, will most likely be much more honest in general. Moreover, a woman understanding her place and properly trained will not suffer the heartbreak extremely common to women who limited their owner and discovered that his honor was lacking (indeed, has anything caused women more emotional pain than this unnatural expectation?)

Another pragmatic concern is desirability of older single men, and this related most directly to women seeking experienced men above 30 or so. Men who have unable to acquire ownership of a woman by this age will often (not always of course) have failed for legitimate reasons. A single man of forty on this site may well be one or more of the following, live with his mother, be unemployed, have an action figure collection, speak Klingon, read comic books or be overwhelmingly unappealing physically (of course, there are exceptions). My general view of this lifestyle has always been because of the extreme vulnerability slaves are always apt to find themselves in, the quality of the owner is paramount and the conventionality of the situation secondary if not tertiary. Often divorced men will have less negatives at least in traditional dating, but in the lifestyle there is the concern that they have had a woman they could not train and that may sometimes speak to their skills as a Master.

I have met some very nice woman among an amazing amount of frauds on this site, but have also been told by those seeking total slavery and submission that they do not do ‘poly’ or want monogamy. They only dilute the pool of potential owners to exclude the most desirable and talented, set themselves up for almost inevitable heartbreak and undermine the thing they think they are offering. I hope these words help woman, even if just a bit, that the quality of the owner is determined by his honestly and his dominance not his conventionality.

Well, I'm a gay submissive woman, so your post isn't aimed at me, I guess. Your only reference to femdoms are those who have male subs. I'll just toss in my two pennies anyway though. =)

I disagree with a lot of your post, but this part specifically. The quality of the owner is determined by compatibility. Maybe to the slave's point of view, her heart revolts from an owner who is poly; it just wouldn't work out because they aren't compatible. Everyone has the right to seek the type of relationship they feel they deserve, will make them happiest. We'll accept nothing less, and we shouldn't. You may think I'm diluting my pool of potential owners, but I don't; that's all that matters. You're just some dude on the internet who seems to think one size fits all. There's plenty of men who are monogamous and search for women who are the same.



naughtysubK -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 1:53:57 PM)

I can't believe I read this whole thing. One thing I have been wondering since the first post. Does the OP understand that there is a difference between submissive and slave? Because from his posts, it seems that he thinks all submissive women are also slaves, or at least that they should be



CeriseNin -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 2:05:43 PM)

I think there's a difference between sub and slave, but I know people who don't.



Lockit -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 2:06:28 PM)

It was a glorious time, filled with anticipation, when I went out to rope a wild beast to become my property. As I was traveling through the majestic mountains and winding valley’s, looking for what was to become my property, I thought of all the wondrous things such property could do for me. I would first capture them, bring them home and then train them to be the perfect little beast properties for me; the superior in all things, whom must be pleased. In all my glory I sat upon my saddle making plans for the future, waiting for a glimpse of the beast I meant to prey upon in my capture of them and bring them home with me to refine and of course give them freedom within my ownership. Knowing I was so wondrous and all knowing, any beastly property would be happy serving my every need and sharing my grandeur and status with the other beast property. I knew that I had created the perfect lifestyle.

As I came around the north side of Whachamanduka Hill and entered a small green valley, I found the heard of beastly property and readily chose those I wished to make mine. It is said that one could entice these beautiful beast with many things that by nature they enjoyed, but I set out to prove that a beast could be captured by other means and this was what they really and truly needed. Some argued my hypothesis, but I knew they could only be wrong, for I had the answer to everything and knew these beastly creatures well. I knew what they really needed to be happy and know my superior presence, to serve lifelong and I set out to establish what I knew had to be established.

An odd thing then occurred. I was a little surprised because when I offered my wondrous presence, they all ignored me! What was the pleasure in capturing these beast properties if they didn’t recognize my worth? So I set out to prove my domly presence by roping a few. They ran this way and that giggling as if they were laughing at me! How dare they? Didn’t they know that I could make them happy in serving me? Didn’t they realize I was the owner of their dreams and that I could bring them all happiness being my property? What was the matter with them?

I had placed my gaze upon a filly with red hair and thought to make her my first. She didn’t even have the presence of mind to know her place and recognize how virtuous it would be to be mine. She ran and I chased her, the other fillies moved to surround her so that I could not place my rope around her neck. Didn’t they see the wonder of it all and how I could free them in my captivity and how great their life would be, to join together in serving me?

I quickly broke through their property ranks and trod within their group as they giggled. I expertly prepared to rope the young filly, when all of a sudden all those fillies closed in on me. I had to prove my dominance over them and I struck out with my whip, which made them laugh even more. I could not believe what I was seeing and the audacity of these beasts. How dare they?!

Before I could do much of anything else, these giggling beasts overtook me. They took my own rope and strung me up as I cried out their failure to recognize what was best for them and that was me. Down I went as they pulled me through the valley, roped and tied securely. I didn’t know where they were taking me, I didn’t really care as my head was filled with the injustice of it all and how dare they think they could do this to me! Finally after about a mile, I would judge from the dust within my eyes, we arrived at a small building in which they threw me.

“We have decided amongst ourselves that you would be most happy serving all our needs. Your brothers in service and our owned property, whom have been properly trained will join you soon. We shall have dinner and you will be prepared for our examination and use to see your worth as our property. You no longer have rights, thoughts or any right to request anything for yourself. Now clean yourself up and be prepared to meet your happiness with gratitude.”

I really didn’t know what to do being forced into this position. I beat at the walls that entrapped me, I tore at what was left of my clothes. Didn’t they see that I was the masterly type and deserved much better treatment than this? How dare they? It was my right as a male to dominate and use them as I saw fit and yet here I was, in a dank building supposedly preparing myself for their use. What nightmare had I awoken to? Where were my truths and plans for the ideal in life? Couldn’t these fools see?

Then I heard these words, seemingly from no where.

“There is no fool like the fool who decides how life should be and how to take the human rights of another. By example, they will have to learn. Therefore in all this foolish glory, you must be taught that the beauty of the precious beasts of the field are to be respected for the beauty of who and what they are. You will first learn your place by serving their needs without a thought to your own. You dared to think of yourself far too highly and being the loving being I am, I will give you opportunity to know that you do not rule this land and have no right to call things as you see them. Prepare to meet your life lessons before you will ever know your freedom and happiness. My fillies will now teach you.”

I couldn’t breath, I knew I had been had, but not by my own doing, but theirs and it was all their fault! Why couldn’t they recognize me?

Again that voice I heard, was heard again. “This one will seem to be tougher to break, but if you look deeply and see what isn’t always apparent, those that scream and protest the loudest are the easiest to break.” I again heard them giggling and knew they were laughing at me. I couldn’t help the tears in my eyes from all my frustrations and the dust in my eye. What would they do to me?!

OP, you have been had. The fillies have had their way with you and have proven that their wisdom is far superior to your own and you still cannot see the truth of the matter, for the dust of your superior understanding and self placement has you clouded in your thinking. Point for point many have matched and superseded you and yet you still cannot see. These are not signs of a leader, but true signs of one who needs to be led. To claim that nature dictates, is a base and hollow notion of which one day we hope you will be free.




VaguelyCurious -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 2:10:39 PM)

Lockit, I love you.

You are made of love and win, to quote LH.



AquaticSub -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 2:11:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CeriseNin

I think there's a difference between sub and slave, but I know people who don't.


I'm one of the ones who think they are relationship terms and should be selected and defined by what fulfills the people in said relationship, not another person's defination. So I don't regard there as having to be a difference but for some people there is one.



sexyred1 -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 2:13:34 PM)

OMG, I think I am in love with Lockit.

Totally brilliant. Also liked the use of a redhead in the metaphor. :)



SorceressJ -> RE: Monogamy Agonistes (8/29/2010 2:15:17 PM)

Lockit: Best. Post. EVER!!1! [sm=applause.gif][sm=champ.gif][sm=hearts.gif]



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