Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

America is strong when our unions are strong


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> America is strong when our unions are strong Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
America is strong when our unions are strong - 8/31/2010 8:09:27 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline
Even though Americans have held the right to unionize since the National Labor Relations Act was signed into law in 1935, the working class has become less likely to pursue the option. The reason - increased corporate intimidation, scare tactics, combined with anti-union rhetoric from the right.

Since the 1970s, employers have generally chosen to violate the National Labor Relations Act, as penalties for doing so are negligible, rather than have their workers unionize.

As a result, the quality of life for the middle class has been in steady decline.



America is strong when our unions are strong

What difference can unions make? In 1945 labor unions represented about 1/3 of all workers. When American unions were strong, working people got the minimum wage, the 40-hour week, weekends off, paid vacations, health insurance, pensions, dignity and respect. This was when America built the middle class that everyone has been taking for granted since. Even the wealthy benefited greatly over the long run as more consumers with more money to spend lifted the whole economy.

But what has happened to us since the Reagan Revolution, when concentrated power of the big corporations weakened America’s unions? Since the days of FDR membership in unions has fallen, but in 1980 unions still represented 24 percent of American workers. The Reagan administration famously launched an all-out assault on organized labor, resulting in membership falling to 16.4 percent by 1989. And the trend continued: by 1998 union membership fell to 13.9 percent. By 2009 that had decreased to 12.3 percent, but only 7.6 percent in the private sector. And here are the results:

When you hear someone complain about unions and complain that people in unions are paid better than the rest of us, let them know that they are reaching the wrongest conclusion. They shouldn’t resent union members and complain about their pay, they should join a union and support unions, so they they and everyone else can come out ahead.

http://aworldofprogress.com/politics/2010/08/31/america-is-strong-when-our-unions-are-strong/

This is a chart of working people’s share of the benefits from our economy. Note the brief return to normal under Clinton, erased by Bush II. But the assault on working people has recently been bipartisan. Clinton pushed to pass the Bush I-negotiated NAFTA treaty which hammered the bargaining position of workers, while Bush II consolidated the practice of “outsourcing” labor competition from non-democratic countries where workers didn’t have rights or protections.





Attachment (1)
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 8/31/2010 8:27:45 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
In the modern age strong unions are good for the union members in the medium term, no-one else. If you want to help the working class have a decent minimum wage, strong set of employment laws, and a progressive tax system, strong unions just fuck their industries. Unions insist on wage rises matching inflation or higher. Doesn't take a genius to see that's unsustainable.


(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 8/31/2010 9:18:07 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Unions insist on wage rises matching inflation or higher. Doesn't take a genius to see that's unsustainable.

A situation in which wages don't keep pace with inflation isn't sustainable either.

K.

(in reply to DCWoody)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 8/31/2010 9:59:58 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
Workers are strong when America is strong. Some unions are progressive and understand business, some are there to rape their employers and the taxpayers.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 4:52:16 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

When American unions were strong, working people got the minimum wage, the 40-hour week, weekends off, paid vacations, health insurance, pensions, dignity and respect.


Yes, they did. And then there were laws passed that established a minimum wage and other laws that covered how many hours could be worked before overtime had to be paid. Laws about child labor and all the things that unions used to be needed for. So why should I pay some idiot to protect me from something that the employer can't do anyway?

I worked at a company where they decided to go union. The union got them a 25 cent raise across the board. Of course before the union, workers were getting anywhere from 25 cents to a dollar an hour depending on their performance, but a firm 25 is better than a possible dollar, right? They also got the day after thanksgiving off and management had to write it down in the calender. Of course they had always been given the day off, but now it was written down, so that was good, right? There three men who originally brought in the union because they thought their jobs would be safer. All three were fired within 3 months of signing up for the union for tardiness. Now before the union came in, they were late and got spoken to about it, but no one suggested they would be fired. With the union, managements hands were tied because according to union rules if you are late 3 times you are let go. And for all that, they got to pay the union every month to have the things that they would have gotten anyway. Ya, go union.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 6:49:37 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline
I was fortunate enough to be in a union ( CWA ) that understood basic business principles. If you put your company out of business, everyone loses. The Teamsters and auto workers unions never seemed to figure it out untill it was to late, for them and the companies they worked for. SEIU is next in line to get a dose of reality.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 8:42:54 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
Sure the OP is true, but like anything else people screw it up. Supply and demand still apply here, nd when the unions had the upper hand eventually they abused it.

Think of the dawn of the sales of Japanese cars here. Now tell me how it is cheaper to ship all the raw materials there and ship the finished product back here. Shipping was never free, especially across the Atlantic. So how did this happen ?

Well a long time ago I had an "in" at Ford, and I could've gotten a job sweeping the floor at $18 per hour with full benefits. Mind you this is about 30 years ago, what was the minimum wage back then ? What's more what was the payscale for a first year qualified engineer ? It was tempting but I would either have to drive 30 miles each way or move. I turned it down. Now I am probably better off because I was unlikely to become management and would be in the same boat as all the ex-autoworkers are now.

Back to supply and demand. The fair payscale for a job is inversely propotional to the availability of people who can and/or are willing to do the job. If that maxim had been held, all this import trouble we are having would not have happened, at least not as quickly or severely. And this applies to the executives as well.

Our problems are all caused by human nature, part of which iis greed, or in a lesser quantity, desire. Anyone who gets the upper hand will eventually abuse it, and eventually if they don't understand the way things work will price themselves out of the market or a job. And that is exactly what happened.

This has been forgotten but a long time ago a McD's was paying a very good starting wage in a town somewhere down south. It made the news, I remember. Know why ? Because there was alot of new construction going on at the time and all the local labor was eaten up in the trades. This particular franchise saw fit to pay double what their counterparts in other areas were offering. Again, supply and demand.

Then the educational system started breaking down, and employers were complaining that they had to have remedial reading courses because the employees couldn't even read the warning signs posted in dangerous areas of the plant. You think this was free ? In the end, as usual, the customer paid for everything and even disregarding the greed involved the bottom line was creeping.

And then we grew out of the time when a hard day's work had value to those who did the work. Parents wanted to give their kids a better life than they had had, and came born a sense of entitlement. As time went by, this seed grew into a mighty weed and that is a big part of what destroyed us.

Real market forces spoke to correct this situation as the US consumer voted with his wallet. Foreign manufacturers prevailed because they eventually met then exceeded the actual quality of many US goods.

A union is nothing but a group, much like a group of stores operating under franchise. Just like Walmart and Kmart. Look what happened to Kmart.

The only union(s) to which normal market forces do not apply is the government workers' union(s). The reason is obvious.

Now we are in a rut so deep there is practically no way out. Solve that and you'll have quite the feather in your cap.

T

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 8:43:40 AM   
brokedickdog


Posts: 114
Joined: 8/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Unions insist on wage rises matching inflation or higher. Doesn't take a genius to see that's unsustainable.

A situation in which wages don't keep pace with inflation isn't sustainable either.

K.



Kirata,

I doubt that could have been stated any better.

It does, however, beg the question of what the causes of inflation are.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 9:11:03 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I was fortunate enough to be in a union ( CWA ) that understood basic business principles. If you put your company out of business, everyone loses. The Teamsters and auto workers unions never seemed to figure it out untill it was to late, for them and the companies they worked for. SEIU is next in line to get a dose of reality.


How did the Teamsters get their "dose of reality"?

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 9:16:11 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline
I am almost sure that the federal government still has oversight of what that union does. They were the absolute worst when it came to stealing from their members.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 9:25:02 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
Unions just like any other group in America: Some are really good and others not so good. Some become antagonistic (like some of you posters), simply seem to hold a vendetta with management. But most unions, do work with the companies they are around. Since, a union allows an employee to state a process or concept is not well thought out to management, and not being put at risk for a firing. It also helps protect workers from abusive policies, or create unsafe workspaces (physically, mentally, spiritually, oh yes, even morally). Almost every labor practice Americans enjoy today, has its roots in the labor union as a concept. Just as the concept of 'the corporation' has given Americans benefits and abilities that did not exist before. But to make a blind, sweeping arguement of hatred towards unions is rather silly.

Traditionally, the labor union has voted Democrat, and executives and higher level salaried employees (non-union members), voted Republican. As such, most seem to accept that putting political pressure on unions, was the result of Republican action(s), while a great emphasis on the American worker, was by actions of labor unions. Yes, there has been conflict, and usually for the most part, it has been a good thing.

How many of those people unemployed right now, would like to have had a say, in their job being laid off, and the company moving production to another country? That is the principle reason for a union: to give the worker a fair say in the operation, and not as a slave. That is, when you think about it, a pretty American concept: every person is an equal; and some are not considered 'more equal' then the rest. And as we've seen, some union officals, believe they are 'more equal' then others, and try to exter their influence on the company for personal reasons. Its when a select few union and management guys get in to a serious set of arguements, that drags the rest of the company in to the problem; and some of those, have nothing to do with the company (like being members of two different gun clubs).

For the most part, I stay neutral on disputes between a company and union, until I have a better sense of the issues and motives. Some unions make good arguements, and sometimes the executives put forth good arguements. Sometimes they both do, and others, neither. But if your going to bash one or the other, because of your political philosophy; then its fair to say, you have a bias and would not make a good judge in the debate.

(in reply to brokedickdog)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 9:59:03 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I am almost sure that the federal government still has oversight of what that union does. They were the absolute worst when it came to stealing from their members.


That's a different issue than your claim that the Teamsters has put companies out of business.

The Teamsters represent workers at some very profitable companies including UPS, where they represent everyone from the drivers and dockworkers to the pilots and aircraft mechanics.

I would also question your claim about the UAW.  The so-called legacy costs that it has become common to blame were not the cause of the problems at the automakers.  These benefits were deferred compensation that the companies had already calculated into their projections. The problem was poor management and a focus on selling the larger, more profitable vehicles.  Then when gas prices spiked to $4 a gallon no one was buying  the Hummers or the Escalades anymore, and that was the core of their profits.  

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 10:02:56 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
America is strong when our unions are strong? It therefore follows that creating more strong unions in America would make America stronger. It therefore follows that creating a new strong automotive mechanic/technician union would make America stronger. But let's not tell anyone that doing so would at least double the labor-rate for automotive repairs until after we've created the union and bought off enough politicians to force all non-union garages to close up shop.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 10:07:12 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline
The problem of causality....Was the US strong because we had strong unions? Or were the unions strong because the economy was growing in a real way- in contrast to the past decade where US economic growth seems to have been smoke and mirrors based on a fallacious assumption that financial services could represent up to 1/4 of the economy.

I suspect what's harder to deny is that the demise of unions has had a great deal of impact on the wealth distribution of the country, allowing wealth to be distributed in too few hands, much like the gilded age of 1880-1912. (The Titanic sinking really marks the end of an era....) But a badly flawed tax system and neither party taking responsibility for our current economic calamity doesn't help either.

Overall- while it's always tempting to blame our current malaise on a single event or organizational failure, the reality is that we've got a good system of government which requires multiple simultaneous failures to have our current economic failure. And like I've said before, our major educational deficiency in this country isn't math or science- it's history, because we seem to keep repeating our mistakes. Like a strong Republican presence in Congress in this upcoming election seems very similar to the Congress of Herbert Hoover's time with fiscal restraint and trying to belt tighten their way out of a depression. But the Democrats haven't realized that Social Security/Medicare/etc also needs to be on the table- especially with how its funded.

Sam

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 10:08:07 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

America is strong when our unions are strong? It therefore follows that creating more strong unions in America would make America stronger. It therefore follows that creating a new strong automotive mechanic/technician union would make America stronger. But let's not tell anyone that doing so would at least double the labor-rate for automotive repairs until after we've created the union and bought off enough politicians to force all non-union garages to close up shop.


Joether's whole post was about making broad, sweeping generalizations and you respond to it by making a broad, sweeping generalization.

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 11:09:14 AM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
"Think of the dawn of the sales of Japanese cars here. Now tell me how it is cheaper to ship all the raw materials there and ship the finished product back here. Shipping was never free, especially across the Atlantic. So how did this happen ?"

Atlantic? :)


@Inflation, jobs...overtime...do keep up with inflation, by default...it's not avoidable in the modern employment lawed times. But individual companies/industries won't......if an industry can't keep up with inflation/wage levels it will eventually die off in that nation as no-one will want to work there....if an industry goes ahead of inflation/wages that's all well and good, unless it can't afford it.....then the workers lose their jobs and realise they won't get other jobs that pay that much for their skill levels. So they bitch and moan about it.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 11:35:43 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


The Teamsters represent workers at some very profitable companies including UPS, where they represent everyone from the drivers and dockworkers to the pilots and aircraft mechanics.

I would also question your claim about the UAW.  The so-called legacy costs that it has become common to blame were not the cause of the problems at the automakers.  These benefits were deferred compensation that the companies had already calculated into their projections. The problem was poor management and a focus on selling the larger, more profitable vehicles.  Then when gas prices spiked to $4 a gallon no one was buying  the Hummers or the Escalades anymore, and that was the core of their profits.  



UPS has withdrawn from the Teamsters pension fund which is generally the first step toward decertifying the union.

There is plenty of blame to go around on UAW legacy costs. Yes, they are deferred compensation, and the deferral during times of overfunded pension plans and slowly rising retiree medical premiums were an easier pill to swallow than the strikes and loss of business that the UAW threatened if those benefits were increased beyond what is actually REASONABLE compensation.

The statement that management is poor because they focused on more profitable vehicles is ludicrous on its face. Thats what companies do, and the car companies would have had no problem shifting production to more fuel efficient cars if it werent for the inventory in the larger vehicles that stagnated due to the economy.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 11:35:52 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Even though Americans have held the right to unionize since the National Labor Relations Act was signed into law in 1935, the working class has become less likely to pursue the option. The reason - increased corporate intimidation, scare tactics, combined with anti-union rhetoric from the right.

Since the 1970s, employers have generally chosen to violate the National Labor Relations Act, as penalties for doing so are negligible, rather than have their workers unionize.

As a result, the quality of life for the middle class has been in steady decline.



America is strong when our unions are strong

What difference can unions make? In 1945 labor unions represented about 1/3 of all workers. When American unions were strong, working people got the minimum wage, the 40-hour week, weekends off, paid vacations, health insurance, pensions, dignity and respect. This was when America built the middle class that everyone has been taking for granted since. Even the wealthy benefited greatly over the long run as more consumers with more money to spend lifted the whole economy.

But what has happened to us since the Reagan Revolution, when concentrated power of the big corporations weakened America’s unions? Since the days of FDR membership in unions has fallen, but in 1980 unions still represented 24 percent of American workers. The Reagan administration famously launched an all-out assault on organized labor, resulting in membership falling to 16.4 percent by 1989. And the trend continued: by 1998 union membership fell to 13.9 percent. By 2009 that had decreased to 12.3 percent, but only 7.6 percent in the private sector. And here are the results:

When you hear someone complain about unions and complain that people in unions are paid better than the rest of us, let them know that they are reaching the wrongest conclusion. They shouldn’t resent union members and complain about their pay, they should join a union and support unions, so they they and everyone else can come out ahead.

http://aworldofprogress.com/politics/2010/08/31/america-is-strong-when-our-unions-are-strong/

This is a chart of working people’s share of the benefits from our economy. Note the brief return to normal under Clinton, erased by Bush II. But the assault on working people has recently been bipartisan. Clinton pushed to pass the Bush I-negotiated NAFTA treaty which hammered the bargaining position of workers, while Bush II consolidated the practice of “outsourcing” labor competition from non-democratic countries where workers didn’t have rights or protections.






Very nice post. The words are very true..

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 12:24:24 PM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Workers are strong when America is strong. Some unions are progressive and understand business, some are there to rape their employers and the taxpayers.


You speak as if management has no free will. I know that most are brainless hacks that are only interested in what the stock price is doing on a given day....but there  is a word....I think it is NO. Can always use it.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: America is strong when our unions are strong - 9/1/2010 12:35:02 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Workers are strong when America is strong. Some unions are progressive and understand business, some are there to rape their employers and the taxpayers.


You speak as if management has no free will. I know that most are brainless hacks that are only interested in what the stock price is doing on a given day....but there  is a word....I think it is NO. Can always use it.


You speak as if the union doesnt have the ability to cripple the employer by striking. I know that many union leaders are greedy fucks looking to line their own pockets at the expense of the company and their members...but there is a word....I think it is REALISM. Can always try to introduce it to the bargaining process.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> America is strong when our unions are strong Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109