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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 4:28:20 PM   
brainiacsub


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Status: offline 		Julia, once again you are engaging in equivocation fallacy. You are arguing that faith is on parity with logic and reason and that for all intents and purposes they should be treated as equal belief systems. Lack of belief is not equivalent to belief. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 4:47:21 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I think the majority of people know this now and it’s time we speak up and rid ourselves of this irrational fairy tale we call religion which they use to pollute minds with lies like if you blow yourself up you go to heaven and will be with 50 virgins.


It never says you will be with 50 virgins of the opposite sex.


It also doesn't say you will be alone with those 50, you may end up sitting at the end of a very long line waiting your turn.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 5:06:40 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
However I disagree. Electrochemical processes and complex biological systems are physical.

I'm not sure who you're responding to. Did someone said they weren't?

I'm taking the position that consciousness isn't a valid example. While we can conceptually separate consciousness from the biological components from which it emerges we don't know of a consciousness where that can actually be done. Consciousness as far as we know requires a brain i.e. has to "have mass/energy, in order for it to exert any influence on the physical world." (and to even exist).

P.S. I'm also skeptical that the "emergent quality" of consciousness is actually non physical but I think I'm going to be waiting a while before that one is resolved.

P.P.S. When you use the word epiphenomenon, I assume that isn't actually what you mean because epiphenomenon don't exert any influence on the physical world. 


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 5:34:48 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

I just looked into the sky, the clouds looked kind of like an elephant, does that count?

That may be the difference between you and I in a nutshell. While I'm looking to the stars, deep in thought, pondering the complexities of the universe..your mind is busy with animal shapes in the sky.




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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 5:39:45 PM   
GotSteel


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Actually I was making a point about how we are wired to see patterns even when there aren't any. But damn, that was a good insult.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 5:42:02 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
People need to speak up and rid themselves of atheism... we need to destroy it at its roots. We need to take this message everywhere GET RID OF ATHEISM TODAY.... (wonders, how does that statement feel to atheists if they heard it?)

It feels like I'm talking to an evangelical christian, i.e. same old same old. But how it makes people feel would seem to be a different issue from whether or not it's a slippery slope.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 5:49:14 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


Actually I was making a point about how we are wired to see patterns even when there aren't any. But damn, that was a good insult.


Thanks

Good nature jab..


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 8:36:07 PM   
samboct


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AFAIK- it's possible to have energy sans mass- what is an electrical field after all? (Although electrons have mass come to think of it...) But in practice, we know of no cohesive or organized energy sans mass.

In terms of consciousness- you just made my point. Consider if consciousness would exist independent of the brain. Let's say that consciousness is independent of the brain so that when your physical being dies, your consciousness carries on. Well, to date, we have no evidence whatsoever of these conscious entities affecting the physical world. How could they? What's the coupling between consciousness and the physical world? So if God is disembodied consciousness- how does he/she affect or intuit the physical world? To read human thoughts requires some ability to detect brainwaves and while it might be possible to do that with only an energy field, it seems highly improbable. Plus- how close would the energy field have to come? Furthermore, for an energy field to affect physical objects is tricky- what forces could it apply? Electric fields, and magnetic fields all require mass to be generated AFAIK. The jury is still out on gravity because we don't understand that force well at all. Strong and electroweak nuclear forces? Don't think they do much outside a nucleus, but again, this chunk of physics is way over my head.

In terms of the question you posed- what is consciousness? Damn good question and I haven't got an answer. It's not merely neural connections, because the 'net has passed the number of connections in the human brain and thankfully, it still seems to be asleep. (I agree with Harlan Ellison- the concept of a self aware silicon based life form on this planet is terrifying.) So clearly, there's some structure in the human and animal brains that allows consciousness to develop. Well, at least we've got something over the machines, but I don't know what it is. It's clear that it's a function of genetics and organization- humans are not the only self aware species. However, I see no reason to break consciousness away from unconscious thought- both exist in the brain, and neither exists independently. One question tangled with by sci fi writers is- can consciousness be transferred from one location (i.e. brain) to another? Answer that question and we'll have a better idea of the nature of consciousness.

Back to religion.... The first step for religions to have a more positive impact on the world is to reconcile with science. Rather than fantasy, a religion which would involve veneration of the creator might get a lot more traction if the creator was actually believable to people with an education. Even if God created the universe we live in, that does not make him/her above its physical laws. Defining the possible parameters of God's existence would change religion from fantasy to having at least some grounding in reality. A religion more grounded in reality might actually acknowledge that other individuals on this planet have the same set of rights as followers. Hmm, think I should start a religion? Isn't that what L. Ron Hubbard did to make a buck? I just don't think I could stomach it though...


Sam

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 10:08:55 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

What's the coupling between consciousness and the physical world?

That's the question every quantum physicist is asking these days, eh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Rather than fantasy... A religion more grounded in reality might actually acknowledge that other individuals on this planet have the same set of rights as followers.

Virtually every religion I know holds as a primary imperative that we must not treat others as we would not wish to be treated ourselves. In my view, the problem lies with "believers" who are more grounded in fantasy than religion.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/8/2010 10:17:02 PM >

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 10:23:23 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 10:32:25 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
People need to speak up and rid themselves of atheism... we need to destroy it at its roots. We need to take this message everywhere GET RID OF ATHEISM TODAY.... (wonders, how does that statement feel to atheists if they heard it?)

It feels like I'm talking to an evangelical christian, i.e. same old same old. But how it makes people feel would seem to be a different issue from whether or not it's a slippery slope.



I find it a slippery slope, you don't... gotcha... not arguing with you over this because I know I am right. Language is used in specific ways to get certain reactions and to get people to take action... I wonder why they came up with "hate speech" laws if that were not true

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/8/2010 11:44:47 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Julia, once again you are engaging in equivocation fallacy. You are arguing that faith is on parity with logic and reason and that for all intents and purposes they should be treated as equal belief systems. Lack of belief is not equivalent to belief. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Julia's post was about how it makes people feel when some asshole gets in their face and tells them that all their most sincerely held beliefs are nothing but crap, and that what's wrong with this world is people like them. The clue to this was her question: "how does that statement feel to atheists...?"

Now it may be your view that an atheist who does that sort of thing is motivated by reason, logic, and the good of the world, while a religious person who does it is a bigot. But that would not be on point even if it was true. So in fact, it is your response to her post that is irrational and illogical.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/8/2010 11:55:55 PM >

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/9/2010 12:05:51 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Julia, once again you are engaging in equivocation fallacy. You are arguing that faith is on parity with logic and reason and that for all intents and purposes they should be treated as equal belief systems. Lack of belief is not equivalent to belief. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Julia's post was about how it makes people feel when some asshole gets in their face and tells them that all their most sincerely held beliefs are nothing but crap, and that what's wrong with this world is people like them. The clue to this was her question: "how does that statement feel to atheists...?"

Now it may be your view that an atheist who does that sort of thing is motivated by reason, logic, and the good of the world, while a religious person who does it is a bigot. But that would not be on point even if it was true. So in fact, it is your response to her post that is irrational and illogical.

K.


I missed this post, but you said what I would have....

Edited to add, I wanted to point out when that sort of language is used about any group of people it feels threatening. If someone said "We need to rid ourselves of the ideas that those professors are teaching in colleges"... I would feel threatened by that statement. It is statements like these that cause people do to whacky things, like targeting people who perform abortions, or targeting people who are a different race. It is a short step from we need to rid ourselves of an idea, to we need to rid ourselves of the people who have those ideas...

When people say that our ideas are dangerous, it is a short trip to trying to control our thoughts, and I don't want to live in a world where thought is controlled... not by a religion or those who are anti religion

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/9/2010 12:12:00 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/9/2010 9:10:46 AM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		I agree Kirata's response on this one.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/9/2010 9:20:24 AM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Julia, once again you are engaging in equivocation fallacy. You are arguing that faith is on parity with logic and reason and that for all intents and purposes they should be treated as equal belief systems. Lack of belief is not equivalent to belief. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Julia's post was about how it makes people feel when some asshole gets in their face and tells them that all their most sincerely held beliefs are nothing but crap, and that what's wrong with this world is people like them. The clue to this was her question: "how does that statement feel to atheists...?"

Now it may be your view that an atheist who does that sort of thing is motivated by reason, logic, and the good of the world, while a religious person who does it is a bigot. But that would not be on point even if it was true. So in fact, it is your response to her post that is irrational and illogical.

K.

K.,

I understood Julia's post and my point was 'I ain't buyin it.' I do not engage in nor do I condone Pogo's militant style of antitheist rants. I find them childish and unproductive and did not mean to imply that they were in any way reasoned or logical. However I tired long ago of Julia's personal philosophy that 'when dealing with the unknown, everyone's belief system is equally valid and those who dare to question others beliefs are intolerant biggots.' She applies this standard unequally and biased against atheism, although she claims to be agnostic. Of course I understand that language matters, but Julia lacks credibility when delivering that message. She is inconsistent at best and often just as hypocritical as those she criticizes.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/9/2010 9:36:18 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I find it a slippery slope, you don't... gotcha... not arguing with you over this because I know I am right.

Julia, what you've presented is a slippery slope argument which isn't necessarily a fallacy if you actually demonstrate the causal relationship between brain's statement and your claim. When instead of doing that you inform us that you find it a slippery slope, yes you are committing the fallacy by that name and backing up your position with an appeal to emotion and by begging the question is just adding more fallacies to the mix.



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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/9/2010 9:41:01 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

However I tired long ago of Julia's personal philosophy that 'when dealing with the unknown, everyone's belief system is equally valid and those who dare to question others beliefs are intolerant biggots.' She applies this standard unequally and biased against atheism, although she claims to be agnostic. Of course I understand that language matters, but Julia lacks credibility when delivering that message. She is inconsistent at best and often just as hypocritical as those she criticizes.


I should show my Fundie brother this response...He thinks I am "anti-Christian", and "intolerant" to Christians because I am not one. If there were people posting on these forums that everyone who wasn't a Christian sucked, was stupid, was going to hell, etc etc etc... I would post to them the same way I post to atheists. In fact there is a thread about the Koran in which I am denouncing those who would justify burning one holy book because they believe in another.

Here is what you are tired of, which you articulated partially in an accurate way, I am of the opinion that atheism and theism are equal. You are tired of the fact I won't say they are not because you have your One Twue Way of believing, which precludes you from respecting other views. I could care less what you think if you think I am a hypocrite, because I think you are someone who has extreme opinions based upon some sort of wounding you received from religious people. Most extreme atheists feel wounded by religious people when you sit down and talk to them about the subject.

I pity that, I really do, because I do not feel wounded by religious folks. Some of the people I love most dearly in the world are religious folks. The person I love bestest in this planet is more of an Atheist than I am... and we have deep conversations on this topic. My son said this to me about Atheism a few months ago...which nailed it for me.

"I find religious people and atheists share something in common, they both need to believe in something. Religious people need to believe in a god, atheists need to believe there is no god. Neither group can withstand the uncertainty of not knowing whether there is a god, or there is no god. At least if you believe there is nothing after you die, that is an answer of sorts, because being unsure is not an option for most people"

My son is about 99% sure there is no god, but it is that 1% uncertainty he is willing to live with. He says it keeps him humble and respectful of other people and their views on the subject. I was so proud when he told me this recently. He had a hard time taking Christians seriously, and respecting them, and not laughing at them because he wasn't raised in a religious household where he was taught such things. I am really proud of him that he is able to respect that which he does not believe.

Do I laugh at those who think the world was created in 6 days? Well, yeah, i think this is silly logically. Do I respect their right to believe it without some jackass telling them how silly they are whenever presented with that opportunity... yes!

_____________________________

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/9/2010 9:47:11 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I find it a slippery slope, you don't... gotcha... not arguing with you over this because I know I am right.

Julia, what you've presented is a slippery slope argument which isn't necessarily a fallacy if you actually demonstrate the causal relationship between brain's statement and your claim. When instead of doing that you inform us that you find it a slippery slope, yes you are committing the fallacy by that name and backing up your position with an appeal to emotion and by begging the question is just adding more fallacies to the mix.





Brain has a long and detailed posting history rife with his intolerance toward religious people, I could go back and rehash every other post he has made on the topic, and in aggregate he has made it loud and clear that he thinks religions need to be stopped, ended, disbanded, etc etc etc. His language on the topic is always extreme.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/9/2010 9:59:22 AM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


[...]
Brain has a long and detailed posting history rife with his intolerance toward religious people, I could go back and rehash every other post he has made on the topic, and in aggregate he has made it loud and clear that he thinks religions need to be stopped, ended, disbanded, etc etc etc. His language on the topic is always extreme.

And this is EXACTLY my objection to your posts. This knife cuts both ways, Julia.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/9/2010 10:32:32 AM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


[...]
Brain has a long and detailed posting history rife with his intolerance toward religious people, I could go back and rehash every other post he has made on the topic, and in aggregate he has made it loud and clear that he thinks religions need to be stopped, ended, disbanded, etc etc etc. His language on the topic is always extreme.

And this is EXACTLY my objection to your posts. This knife cuts both ways, Julia.


Actually, she explained him pretty well. It's not a secret that he feels anyone with a belief system is ignorant, but then again it's not a secret that you do also. So I am not surprised you are here defending him.


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