Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe Page: <<   < prev  10 11 [12] 13 14   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/12/2010 6:20:54 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I find it hilarious when people claim there is another way of knowing.

If you are going to insist that the only statements about reality that we may consider to be true are those for which there exists scientific proof, please produce the scientific proof for that statement. Otherwise, kindly leave a donation on your way out.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/12/2010 7:13:00 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I find it hilarious when people claim there is another way of knowing.

If you are going to insist that the only statements about reality that we may consider to be true are those for which there exists scientific proof, please produce the scientific proof for that statement. Otherwise, kindly leave a donation on your way out.

K.

Then tell me your alternate way of interacting with reality.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/12/2010 7:21:03 AM   
taleon


Posts: 48
Joined: 4/20/2007
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
If you are going to insist that the only statements about reality that we may consider to be true are those for which there exists scientific proof, please produce the scientific proof for that statement. Otherwise, kindly leave a donation on your way out.

Science is not really about establishing what is true or not. It is about finding the best predictive model.

To continue with DomKen's example, if you start to hypothesize that a given door is actually a gateway of sorts which is usually opened while pressing and pushing a handle, you might predict that other doors exist which are opened in a similar way. And, behold, indeed another door is found with a handle that works on a similar principle. Eagerly you publish your findings and your theory is subsequently validated by peers who report that their doors work on a similar principle, and, for a while, your publication is considered the breakthrough article when it comes to explaining doors.

Then, you find a door which doesn't quite work like that. It has sort of a hole, with quite a particular arrangement inside of it. Now, your theory clearly doesn't explain all doors anymore. It is in need of improvement. After some investigating and playing around, you discover that being creative with a piece of metal gets you to open the door. You revise your theory on the basis of the newly found evidence, publish it for peer reviewing, and you continue to gather more evidence based on this model. And, until a new type of door is found, this is considered to be the most accurate model.

So, science, in my opinion, is not about finding the truth per-se, it is about discovering what ideas work the best. As far as I am concerned, the scientific method is a huge improvement over those religions which simply claim to know the truth, and even go as far as to lay down rules for your life based on those perceived truths.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/12/2010 7:35:09 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You seem to assume science and religion are looking at and for the same thing. Science is looking for the better door where religion is trying to tell you what is behind it.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to taleon)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/12/2010 2:40:49 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Kirata, you will never get an answer from DK, just questions back. He knows he can't answer it.

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/12/2010 6:18:28 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		    Actually Hawkings created his universe, you created yours, and i created mine.  somewhere in your mind this all makes sense, and everyone is right.  all that really exists is the mind, and a "universe" in which the mind creates everything else.  That makes the answer to all of the God questions, as well as the science questions point back to the mind that created all of this.  For good or for bad, that makes the mind that created it all "God", or random chance, or an accident, or inevitable outcome.  Be pleased that all the wonders of the world are the makings of your own mind, or feel guilty that the suffering, questioning or insanity of the world is your own design, therefore your own fault.  Realize, at the same time, that this makes me a figment of your imagination.

corrected by the department of redundancy department. 

< Message edited by atursvcMaam -- 9/12/2010 6:20:39 PM >

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 9:35:53 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
And they get very snotty when it is pointed out.

If that was my thread you're talking about it was the equivocation fallacies and inaccurate word definitions cobbled together into dishonest arguments that were pissing people off.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 1:53:38 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Which thread ended when every alternative word to belief system offered up by the athiests to use instead of belief , was found to contain Belief in the definition.


Scientific Athiests, feel (believe) that thier method of viewing things has been Empiricaly Tested and Proved, as the only valid way. When it hasn't.

And they get very snotty when it is pointed out.


belief and faith are not synonymous. I believe and can prove that 1+1 = 2. There is no faith involved.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 2:07:15 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I thought in the new formulations of quantum mechanics 1 +1=2 would not be valid in all cases...especially when referring to atomic particles....So perhaps you are only proving your ignorance.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 2:08:45 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct


The problem is that God is bound by the limits of space/time. If God is beyond detector range, then he/she is far enough out for the speed of light lag to make he/she impotent for day to day issues. Also the idea that God hears our thoughts- well, he/she would need a very sensitive detector to pick up brain waves- and from how far away? Again, a sensitivity problem- and a massive detector needed.

Sam



I saw this considered a possible answer. Before we learned about things like spy satellites, radio and tv waves and things like this, we would have believed that these things were impossible. (going back far enough)

Now we think we have a good handle on what is possible based on the level of science we have discovered. Yet, we have worked out most of this within the last few hundred years and the majority within the last 100. If we consider what a being that has been around since the beginning of the Universe might know, would what we have learned in the last few years, even have anything to do with what was possible from his perspective? Maybe our laws for science are just laws because we have no idea of how to alter or change something that he learned how to do millions of years ago?

I am just equating the idea of God as if they were equal to someone of today compared to the smartest Neanderthal of the past. And it might be so very much worse in reality. So as we sit around postulating childish silly concepts that we are fully invested in believing, God might be listening, watching, and doing his own things at some range so far beyond us that we have not even discovered the Galaxy he is in at this time.


Now there is no evidence for this obviously, any more than the Neanderthal would have seen any evidence from his beliefs about the world if someone with a video camera was watching him from space or some mountaintop. Yet if we had been sitting there in the past with the Neanderthal we could have interacted by sending a probe, or in a number of ways. Of course we also do not have to. But would that have proven we were not there watching because the Neanderthal did not have a way to detect us? Maybe our ways of detection are just as bad for finding God as the Neanderthal's would have been for finding us?

Just a thought. Oh and I am not claiming this is true, but am willing from history to realize that what we know and believe may not be what really is.

MV



(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 2:10:30 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		ah, but 1+1 can equal "No" or "Off"

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 2:55:28 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

belief and faith are not synonymous. I believe and can prove that 1+1 = 2. There is no faith involved.

Unh, belief and knowledge aren't synonymous either. Arithmetically, 1 + 1 = 2. Period. There is no "belief" involved.

It is important, however, not to extend the scope of what one knows beyond the context in which that knowledge is valid. The fact that something is true arithmetically does not make it true in every context. In a relational context, one plus one can equal one.

K.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 3:02:38 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


In a relational context, one plus one can equal one.

K.

Man, that is so profound.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 3:09:01 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I thought in the new formulations of quantum mechanics 1 +1=2 would not be valid in all cases...especially when referring to atomic particles....So perhaps you are only proving your ignorance.

Butch


No, youre proving yours. There is no such formulation of quantum mechanics.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 3:09:42 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
And they get very snotty when it is pointed out.

If that was my thread you're talking about it was the equivocation fallacies and inaccurate word definitions cobbled together into dishonest arguments that were pissing people off.




What was the word you decided on to use instead of Beielf system, world view, assumptions, ect. there were a whole bunch.

What term did you decide on, that didn't include the concept of belief in it.

We don't need to do the whole thread again. Since you won it, just give me that term.




And there is something so rational and scientific about having to edit quotes for content to make a point.

Darwin would be Proud!!!

< Message edited by luckydawg -- 9/13/2010 3:11:00 PM >

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 3:10:01 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

ah, but 1+1 can equal "No" or "Off"


Not in arithmetic.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 3:12:29 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		MV

Interesting analogy, but check out Taleon's post. He came up with a good reason why we use science- because it works. If our knowledge of fundamental science was rapidly evolving, then your analogy with the Neandertal would be apt. But we've been using Newton's equations of motion for several centuries, and while they've needed some tweaks at the atomic level, they work very well for the macroscopic world we live in. (Additional exemptions for high energy fields observed in the universe noted.)

Here's my problem with your argument (and Icarys's too I think)- you want to create an exemption for God to follow the known laws of the universe. Show me some proof! Otherwise, what you're proposing violates Occam's razor- it's not a parsimonious hypothesis. You've added an extra layer of complexity, but have not gained any new insight as to the nature of the world. If the laws of science were written in that fashion, we'd have science tomes like law books, full of minutiae that accomplish little in human progress- there would always be a God exemption for a result that didn't make sense.

The idea that the creator has to be this mystical being- that's a religious belief with no evidence to support it. Is it really so unnerving to propose that human beings actually could comprehend their creator and his/her motives?


Sam

(in reply to atursvcMaam)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 6:13:14 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Which thread ended when every alternative word to belief system offered up by the athiests to use instead of belief , was found to contain Belief in the definition.


Scientific Athiests, feel (believe) that thier method of viewing things has been Empiricaly Tested and Proved, as the only valid way. When it hasn't.

And they get very snotty when it is pointed out.


belief and faith are not synonymous. I believe and can prove that 1+1 = 2. There is no faith involved.


wrong...1+1=10


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 6:14:32 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I thought in the new formulations of quantum mechanics 1 +1=2 would not be valid in all cases...especially when referring to atomic particles....So perhaps you are only proving your ignorance.

Butch


No, youre proving yours. There is no such formulation of quantum mechanics.


Why don't you look up quantum states and observations...or not... maybe just maybe you will learn something and change the possibilities of reality in your mind.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 6:15:37 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

wrong...1+1=10



<3

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 240
Page:   <<   < prev  10 11 [12] 13 14   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe Page: <<   < prev  10 11 [12] 13 14   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094