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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 2:24:08 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're the one who advocated god of the gaps as a good thing not I. Now correct me if I'm wrong but that does make the god of god of the gaps your god as far as I can tell.

Your conclusions frequently derive from an apparently supernatural belief that whenever an assumption pops into your head it "reveals" to you a logical connection.

K.

Maybe you should brush up on the definition of "your" and stop acting outraged.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 2:26:13 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Your conclusions frequently derive from an apparently supernatural belief that whenever an assumption pops into your head it "reveals" to you a logical connection.


Maybe you should brush up on the definition of "your" and stop acting outraged.

See?

K.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 2:55:05 PM   
Icarys


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 2:56:58 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

I'd love to wager on quiz results against you!

I would say you'll go broke but I think you already are.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 3:18:45 PM   
MstrPBK


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Status: offline 		OK ok ok I have ot respond to this,

So maybe god did not create life in this universe ... it was his son who cut his finger and dropped a single drop of blood in the science test,
They have yet to realize there's a mistake ...

MstrPBK
St .Paul, MN USA

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 3:18:56 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Skepticism is not an act of faith.

When you have doubts that something may be true..that is a belief since you are not sure..

Well you've substituted every term in my position for ones which don't have identical meaning. But setting that aside for the moment could you walk me through your statement?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
Belief in anything whether good or bad is faith. Faith is belief.

Please define these terms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
Do you know God doesn't exist?

Please define God? I need to know what you are even talking about before I can get any father into your position.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 3:37:28 PM   
Icarys


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Status: offline 		I'm not being a smartarse here but one really should occasionally reread the definition for words..It helps to refresh the mind..Sometimes we hone in on one meaning of a word when there can be "slight variations" when applied.


confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: (So you don't get hung up on the lines direction)


How I "define God" isn't important.



< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/14/2010 3:45:37 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 3:39:50 PM   
luckydawg


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Status: offline 		How about instead of getting further into his position, you answer his question.

It is very clear that you know if you do you get checkmated.


Hence the rhetorical trick of trying to turn it around, and ask questions instead of answering them.



this Thread is on a well respected scientist declaring athiesm to be fact.

Hence the postion to be invstigated is atheism

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 4:58:53 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
It is very clear that you know if you do you get checkmated. Hence the rhetorical trick of trying to turn it around, and ask questions instead of answering them.

Please stop lying.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 5:31:15 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
How I "define God" isn't important.

Of course it is, my answer may change depending on your definition. For instance a god who is guaranteed to answer your prayers as claimed by Luke 11:9-10 doesn't exist. No faith required we not only can but have tested for that.



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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 6:44:55 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: (So you don't get hung up on the lines direction)

I assume these are definitions for belief and faith? Where did you get these?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I'm not being a smartarse here but one really should occasionally reread the definition for words..It helps to refresh the mind..Sometimes we hone in on one meaning of a word when there can be "slight variations" when applied.

I agree, I looked up faith and belief with their multiple definitions in a couple of dictionaries before posting my question and noticed that yes they still vary. That when it comes to belief for instance all four of these definitions are belief but express somewhat different concepts:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief
be·lief–noun

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Furthermore going to another dictionary http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belief for instance one finds different definitions.

So the exact definitions of these terms and the validity of the definitions really matters in the argument that you're making. Because when having a discussion like this we do need to hone in on one meaning for a term and stick to it throughout, using different definitions interchangeably even if they are "slight variations" is an equivocation fallacy.




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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:15:02 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.

I'll take door number one willis.
You said "Skepticism" wasn't an "act of faith"..You were wrong.

When you fall under this..
skep·ti·cism noun \ˈskep-tə-ˌsi-zəm\Definition of SKEPTICISM1 : an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object 2a : the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain b : the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism characteristic of skeptics 3 : doubt concerning basic religious principles (as immortality, providence, and revelation)

You then have to have formed an opinion about a particular thing which in this case is something that can't be disproved regardless of what sam has offered up...that then leads you here..

Faith. You then have faith that you are correct. I know that most people tie faith's definition mostly towards religion..It's not the case.

I predict all the science in the world will never negate the existence of God. That's all I have to say.

Maybe one day all the religious people will go to heaven and you atheistic can have the planet :>
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155408


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/14/2010 7:19:25 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:21:00 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		You're substituting your definitions for my definitions, that's not ok, do you understand that?

Oh and I think you substituted one of my terms for a non-equivalent one again.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:39:06 PM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
For instance a god who is guaranteed to answer your prayers as claimed by Luke 11:9-10 doesn't exist. No faith required we not only can but have tested for that.


Has he, now. I wouldn't think anyone familiar with, or supportive of, science would be so limited in their thinking.

Luke 11:9-10 says ask and you'll receive. Luke doesn't say it'll show up by Fedex tomorrow. This little planet is not all there is, by anyone's thinking. Even more blinkered is a complete to failure to understand that God, by definition, even if you don't believe, may not be limited by any one person's provincial views of time and space in this tiny, remote neighbourhood.

All that's proven is that Fedex didn't arrive. Why one would open a religious text about a God's power to reward people in the next life, and then expect God to expedite a promise strictly in the confines of this planet, at this time, in a way that some guy can see, is a bit silly, and doesn't do science any favours, whether or not you have any faith, but then, maybe science isn't actually the cause or motivation for thinking that fuzzy.



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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 9:06:33 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Has he, now. I wouldn't think anyone familiar with, or supportive of, science would be so limited in their thinking.

Luke 11:9-10 says ask and you'll receive. Luke doesn't say it'll show up by Fedex tomorrow.

What about the prayers that it will show up by Fedex tomorrow?


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 11:32:13 PM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Has he, now. I wouldn't think anyone familiar with, or supportive of, science would be so limited in their thinking.

Luke 11:9-10 says ask and you'll receive. Luke doesn't say it'll show up by Fedex tomorrow.

What about the prayers that it will show up by Fedex tomorrow?


You're still hoping to limit God to that tiny slice of the pie that you and I can perceive. Any scientist will tell you our perceptions of, and abilities to perceive, the universe are very, very limited. Fedex may have arrived in any one of a billion ways.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/15/2010 12:22:54 AM   
taleon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
You're still hoping to limit God to that tiny slice of the pie that you and I can perceive. Any scientist will tell you our perceptions of, and abilities to perceive, the universe are very, very limited. Fedex may have arrived in any one of a billion ways.

Take the scenario of a mother praying for her infant child to recover from an otherwise fatal cancer. If the child dies, the above would be your answer to her? "Now, now, don't be angry at God, he never promised that the recovery will be in this lifetime and perceivable by your limited means"? Really?

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/15/2010 1:13:14 AM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taleon

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
You're still hoping to limit God to that tiny slice of the pie that you and I can perceive. Any scientist will tell you our perceptions of, and abilities to perceive, the universe are very, very limited. Fedex may have arrived in any one of a billion ways.

Take the scenario of a mother praying for her infant child to recover from an otherwise fatal cancer. If the child dies, the above would be your answer to her? "Now, now, don't be angry at God, he never promised that the recovery will be in this lifetime and perceivable by your limited means"? Really?


Why would I say that? It wouldn't help.

But you're hoping to limit God, and he or she isn't going to be limited to the rigid linear time notions that you and I know, and God won't limit the mother to it either, so whatever we see or don't see at this moment, it's within the power of an omnipotent God to have taken away that pain already and replaced it with infinite joy.

I'm not interested in selling anyone on God's existence. My point was it's silly to claim there's any scientific basis to conclude those prayers go unanswered, that someone thinks it's somehow disproved, just because we can't see more. 



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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/15/2010 2:17:05 AM   
taleon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Why would I say that? It wouldn't help.

Quite right, it wouldn't.

quote:

But you're hoping to limit God, and he or she isn't going to be limited to the rigid linear time notions that you and I know, and God won't limit the mother to it either, so whatever we see or don't see at this moment, it's within the power of an omnipotent God to have taken away that pain already and replaced it with infinite joy.

Sure, I understand that an omnipotent God is able to replace grief with joy, but such far-fetched solutions to fairly simply problems don't add to the credibility of its existence. Look at the options we have:
- Nobody is answering prayers.
- Someone is answering the prayers, but in a way that is impossible for the rest of us to measure or to detect.

I don't think that I'm being unreasonable, if I find the first option to be far more likely.

quote:

I'm not interested in selling anyone on God's existence. My point was it's silly to claim there's any scientific basis to conclude those prayers go unanswered, that someone thinks it's somehow disproved, just because we can't see more.

If you put God outside the reach of any test, then indeed, it is impossible to disprove its existence. Also, postulating such a God doesn't help us in any meaningful way.

< Message edited by taleon -- 9/15/2010 2:26:41 AM >

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/15/2010 2:28:57 AM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys


I predict we will find other forces that we as humans can't readily quantify.



I know quite a bit more about QP than you do. And there will be no other forces found, rather it is more likely that known forces will be found to be the consequences of a single force. More forces arent necessary. Everything can be explained in terms of 4, so any "new" force will be a combination of the existing forces.


Really, they have actually figured out how to explain everything? That's amazing. Or do you believe that one of the current thoeries is correct?

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