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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:37:47 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

ah, but 1+1 can equal "No" or "Off"


Not in arithmetic.


Brilliant.  simply limit your parameters, and continue to refine your limitations and it is quite possible that God does not exist in a limited and constricted universe of your own design.

My understanding has always been that the universe is without limits (therefore allowing for all things).  I could be wrong, but then what is the universe a part of?


Your understanding is wrong on both counts. The universe has limits, but isnt "part of" anything, at least nothing that is ever observable nor interacts with the universe in any way, which is the same as "nothing".

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:40:46 AM   
Icarys


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How does one prove the non-existence of Pink Unicorns?

Just say you can't and be done with it....

I could probably go to the internet and grab a picture of a pink unicorn just to be a smartarse but I won't this time


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:45:00 AM   
Icarys


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ORIGINAL: samboct

Because there is nothing in the known universe that violates the law of conservation of momentum.

Yes yes and every time science has come up against something that didn't fit into the last law we've had to make a new field of science to explain it. It gets a little more muddled when you get into quantum physics doesn't it? Things act stranger and stranger the further we get.

Maybe one day you guys will get one ring to rule them all Frodo. That is your quest.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:46:05 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

How does one prove the non-existence of Pink Unicorns?

Just say you can't and be done with it....

I could probably go to the internet and grab a picture of a pink unicorn just to be a smartarse but I won't this time



So your belief in God rests on the same underpinnings as your belief in Pink Unicorns. Awesome way to think.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:51:52 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Because there is nothing in the known universe that violates the law of conservation of momentum.

Yes yes and every time science has come up against something that didn't fit into the last law we've had to make a new field of science to explain it. It gets a little more muddled when you get into quantum physics doesn't it? Things act stranger and stranger the further we get.




Wrong again. Things get simpler the deeper you get into quantum physics. 4 forces, 3 of which have been unified and 1 on the verge of being unified. Everything in the universe can be explained in terms of those 4 forces. You may describe 11 dimensions are strange, but only because you are unwilling to think beyond your everday experience. From a 100 yards away a garden hose appears to be 1 dimensional. The better your observation abilities the more you realize that is two and then 3 dimensional. There is no reason to think that the existence of the 4th through 10th space dimensions is anything but an observation problem.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:03:40 AM   
Icarys


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Wrong again. Things get simpler the deeper you get into quantum physics. 4 forces, 3 of which have been unified and 1 on the verge of being unified. Everything in the universe can be explained in terms of those 4 forces. You may describe 11 dimensions are strange, but only because you are unwilling to think beyond your everday experience. From a 100 yards away a garden hose appears to be 1 dimensional. The better your observation abilities the more you realize that is two and then 3 dimensional. There is no reason to think that the existence of the 4th through 10th space dimensions is anything but an observation problem.


Your wrong..You obviously don't know everything about quantum physics or you'd know there are some pretty strange things in it. Oh and because I call something strange doesn't mean I don't believe in it. Just a descriptive term. Loosen your panties willber so we can dance together.

I predict we will find other forces that we as humans can't readily quantify.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:08:09 AM   
Icarys


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I see a future for you two.

K.

He wants to be my daddy but it isn't happening...He's a terrible dancer.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:08:27 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Oh, I'll agree that quantum physics is really weird. The idea that a lot of transitions are quantized just flies in the face of our everyday experience. However, the point you seem to be ignoring is that science isn't overturning a lot of fundamental theories anymore- and one of the most basic of physical laws is conservation of momentum. It's never been tweaked either- quantum physics hasn't changed it. Yet religious miracles require it to be suspended- and that's when I say that the God postulated by religion cannot possibly exist. Otherwise you get into a reductio ad absurdum- the Bishop Barclay Brain in a jar.


Sam

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:09:50 AM   
Icarys


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So your belief in God rests on the same underpinnings as your belief in Pink Unicorns. Awesome way to think.

Did I answer Hippie's question?


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:12:03 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys


I predict we will find other forces that we as humans can't readily quantify.



I know quite a bit more about QP than you do. And there will be no other forces found, rather it is more likely that known forces will be found to be the consequences of a single force. More forces arent necessary. Everything can be explained in terms of 4, so any "new" force will be a combination of the existing forces.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:12:39 AM   
taleon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Do you know God doesn't exist? Can you prove it if you don't? If the answer is no then you have participated in faith.

Put it like that, I have "faith" that the solar system will still be around this time tomorrow. I have "faith" that there is no tooth fairy going about the place exchanging children's teeth for a trivial amount in the local currency. You might call that "faith", but I find those reasonable statements about the universe, given our current understanding and the evidence presently available us.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:17:18 AM   
Icarys


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ORIGINAL: samboct

Oh, I'll agree that quantum physics is really weird. The idea that a lot of transitions are quantized just flies in the face of our everyday experience. However, the point you seem to be ignoring is that science isn't overturning a lot of fundamental theories anymore- and one of the most basic of physical laws is conservation of momentum. It's never been tweaked either- quantum physics hasn't changed it. Yet religious miracles require it to be suspended- and that's when I say that the God postulated by religion cannot possibly exist. Otherwise you get into a reductio ad absurdum- the Bishop Barclay Brain in a jar.


Sam

I'm not ignoring it..I just think it's weird as well for one science to work in one area and then it has to be tweaked to work in another area. It seems like it would make more sense if it worked across the board..Why does it change when it comes into contact with the quantum..

As for God by religious standards...I don't know...My idea of God and how everything has come to be is a mix of science and God so I don't fit into "standard" in this case.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:20:02 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

I know quite a bit more about QP than you do.


That may or may not be true but I have more common sense than you do.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:23:08 AM   
Icarys


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Put it like that, I have "faith" that the solar system will still be around this time tomorrow. I have "faith" that there is no tooth fairy going about the place exchanging children's teeth for a trivial amount in the local currency. You might call that "faith", but I find those reasonable statements about the universe, given our current understanding and the evidence presently available us.

I have faith that there is not a tooth fairy as well as the solar system will be here tomorrow too..Yes we can safely say that because it's been here for a minute or two yet it's faith irregardless no matter how one wants to minimize the term.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/14/2010 8:38:02 AM >

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:39:56 AM   
taleon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I have faith that there is not tooth fairy as well as the solar system will be here tomorrom too..Yes we can safely say that because it's been here for a minute or two yet it's faith irregardless no matter how one wants to minimize the term.


So you agree that it is more reasonable to have "faith" in the statement that there is no such entity as a tooth fairy, rather than the statement that there is such a creature fluttering about. But, based on what principle did you decide that?

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:43:32 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taleon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I have faith that there is not tooth fairy as well as the solar system will be here tomorrom too..Yes we can safely say that because it's been here for a minute or two yet it's faith irregardless no matter how one wants to minimize the term.


So you agree that it is more reasonable to have "faith" in the statement that there is no such entity as a tooth fairy, rather than the statement that there is such a creature fluttering about. But, based on what principle did you decide that?

Never a single dollar on my pillow.....Therefor I refuse to believe.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 8:58:41 AM   
taleon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Never a single dollar on my pillow.....Therefor I refuse to believe.


Lol, okay, fair enough. I know you said in that in jest, but still I can't help but to finish the thought I was aiming for. So let's go on with the idea that you don't believe in the tooth fairy, because it apparently didn't pay you the courtesy of visiting you. Well, I have never been "visited" or "touched" by God, as some would call it. I don't feel the presence of a creator around me, and even worse, I don't see any evidence for it. As you put it, there is no dollar under my pillow either. So, why should I entertain the assumption that there is a God as a likely one, if there is nothing out there (which we presently know of) to convince me otherwise?

< Message edited by taleon -- 9/14/2010 9:00:34 AM >

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 9:17:09 AM   
Icarys


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Lol, okay, fair enough. I know you said in that in jest, but still I can't help but to finish the thought I was aiming for. So let's go on with the idea that you don't believe in the tooth fairy, because it apparently didn't pay you the courtesy of visiting you. Well, I have never been "visited" or "touched" by God, as some would call it. I don't feel the presence of a creator around me, and even worse, I don't see any evidence for it. As you put it, there is no dollar under my pillow either. So, why should I entertain the assumption that there is a God as a likely one, if there is nothing out there (which we presently know of) to convince me otherwise?

It was in jest.
I entertain many things because I know I don't have all the answers and what I think to be true may not be all that is.

I understand some of the reasons why people don't want to believe in God because I used to be the same way. People have different life experiences much like Hawking's..He at one time had a different view and may have that view again.

My reason was I was young and thought I knew everything but as I've gotten older I've realized I know way less than I originally thought..I thought because I was "smarter" than most of the people around me..I had better insight into the possibilities but again I realised it always depends on how you allow your intelligence to manifest itself. I don't let my logic get in the way nor do I let my imagination soar without being grounded. What I have leanred is there are many more possiibilities out there than we may first have a glance at and it takes a well balanced mind to see more of them.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 10:01:55 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"I just think it's weird as well for one science to work in one area and then it has to be tweaked to work in another area."

The science works- it's a matter of human perceptions that makes it tough to explain. Energy is quantized. Period. But when you add enough energy quantu up, they appear continuous to us humans. We don't think in terms of quantum phenomena because it's not our direct experience of the world. So we use classical mechanics even though we know its not a perfect description- its just a more useful simplification of most of what we see.

Sam

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 10:26:16 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Icarys, you are gonna have some real trouble watching movies, projected, dvd, vhs and how can you hang with a computer?   Discrete signal events  (quanta) analog or digital occur in such serial speed that we percieve them as continuous.  An atom is mostly empty space, as is our universe, and we can shoot our hand out into the stars without hitting a damn thing.........here is where this gets bizzare...........you can (someone can given the correct time and circumstance, something god talks about in Job, when discussing the branch that fell on a mans head and killed him, and the man was not guilty or in a position of sinning against god........(gods bottom line?  shit happens. its there for you to read)) stick your hand thru a coffee table.........because its mostly empty space, being constructed of atoms........its a certainty, just not your certainty....talk about the matrix, huh?      

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