This is what made me pro-mosque (Full Version)

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VioletGray -> This is what made me pro-mosque (9/11/2010 9:57:25 PM)

I'm sure you all heard about the showdown this Saturday on the anniversary of September 11th over the mosque, so I'll cut right to the chase and explain why I'm 'pro-mosque' by using the following scenario:

Imagine that a black person buys a house, and begins to move his stuff in.  As he's doing so, the next door neighbor walks up to him and says "Please don't move in here."  When the man asks why, she says,

"Because a black man robbed me once in my house."

Would she be justified?  Would it sound reasonable for her to try to take legal action to restrict him from moving in?  How do you think he would feel?  What do you think he would say?   Let's say, for the sake of argument that he says this:

"I'm sorry that happened to you, but I'm nothing like that man, and I don't know him.  Besides, I've already paid for the house, so legally I can move in."

Now imagine her frowning and saying "Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean that you should.  You KNOW that being mugged by a black man was a traumatic experience for me, so moving in next door would be insensitive."

Now what is the problem here? The problem of course is that the trauma of the past is clouding her judgement to the point where she has lost the ability to determine between who is and is not her enemy.  Would he be justified in calling her a racist?  What if she said this:

"It's not that I'm racist against black people, it's just that ever since a black person robbed me I don't want any of them near me.  Decent, reasonable black people should surely understand why I wouldn't want any of them to live near me."

Now of course, we can understand why she wouldn't want to live next to a black person who happened to be a criminal.  But since she doesn't want ANY black people to move next to her, it is because the entire black race now holds some sort of negative connotation.

Likewise, we can assume that if you don't want ANY  'mosque' near ground zero, not just a radical Islam mosque o' terrorists, we can assume its because you have issues with Islam as a whole.  Which you're entitled to, you just have to understand when people call you a prejudiced person.



BKSir -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/11/2010 10:13:24 PM)

I like you already.  [:)]



Termyn8or -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/11/2010 10:32:32 PM)

You don't mean,,,,,,,, someone can think this through ? Wow. You may have stopped today's blow of the hammer to the chisel which chips away at my confidence in humanity nearly every day.

Your statement can be applied to many "groups" for lack of a better term. Just insert ugly people, fat people (or skinny), motorcyclists, people with goatees, just about anything will do. I think we all hold some sort of prejudice in our minds, but not acting upon it and rather acting rationally is a sign of maturity. This is something sorely lacking today.

Unfortunately society seems to be wrapped up in knee jerk reactions. Some are so immature that if they knew someone who got killed by a red Lincoln, they will hate anyone with a red Lincoln. Maybe things are not all that bad all over, but some are like that.

I don't care where they put a mosque, church, synagogue or whatever any other religion calls their meeting place. In fact, personally I believe that they should've immediately began construction on a new WTC set of buildings, in a way to stick it up the radicals' dupas. You don't keep us down.

Speaking of which, was the WTC so useless that they can simply get along without it ?

But then things are mostly done for show, because symbolism seems to be so important today. Let them put up a mosque and you are a Quisling, put up a synagogue and we are kotowing to the Jews, put up a church and you support those who would burn the Koran. Instead prime real estate in NYC sits there for nine years.

When I build that ship and find a decent planet somewhere you're welcome to come along.

T



SorceressJ -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/11/2010 10:53:42 PM)

Yep, she's a keeper. Wow. Thank you very much, and I sincerely mean that Violet, for making this thread and being a voice of reason (of which we have pitifully few) in the midst of all the mudslinging hatemongering foofooraw.
Termy, if I offer to bring good books and cheescake, can I go on the mothership too?



MistressRosalyn -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/11/2010 11:39:16 PM)

Violet, thank you for coming up with an analogy that I can now use with those of my acquaintance who just don't "get" the mosque issue.  



WhipsAndGiggles -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 12:31:30 AM)

Thank heaven for YOU. I wish this would go viral. Mind if I send this example to some judgmental people that might benefit from it?



popeye1250 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 12:55:29 AM)

"A black man robbed my house."
"Members of the muslim faith hyjacked four planes, crashed two of them into the WTC towers and collapsed them killing three thousand people then crashed a third into the pentagon killing scores more then crashed the last one in a field in Pa. killing all onboard."
Yeah, that's pretty close I guess.



maybemaybenot -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 1:13:58 AM)

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how a robber of one individual is analagous with a group of terrorists who have killed thousands.

I'm having trouble understanding how the purchase of a home is analagous with building of a Cultural Center and Mosque. I'm even having trouble understanding how the purchase of a home is analagous with the building of any commerical building.

Maybe... and it's a strech for me.... if you used the former president of the Bloods vs a random robber... I * might* see it closer to an analogy. But probably not.
  
                           mbmbn



Elisabella -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 1:19:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how a robber of one individual is analagous with a group of terrorists who have killed thousands.


Tens of thousands of black men have joined gangs, killed for a block, carelessly shot bullets into the head of children. Is that enough to condemn them all, as well?



maybemaybenot -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 1:25:30 AM)

I'm not condeming anyone. I am pointing out that the analogy is weak at best.
If you read further down my post, I mention I would have a hard time if the OP had used a gang president vs a robber as well.

                     mbmbn



NorthernGent -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 1:34:25 AM)

Isn't the United States supposed to be the freedom of religion and the right of a private organisation to fund its operations free from government intervention?

Seems to me it's a case of hypocrisy....and prejudice.....

As the OP said.....people are entitled to oppose it....but be honest about it.....it's discrimination on religious/cultural grounds.....and the only conclusion you can draw is that the principles of freedom of religion and private enterprise apply only to the majority.....



maybemaybenot -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 1:49:35 AM)

NG:
I am not commenting on the Cultural Cneter and Mosque, I am commenting on the analogy. Period.

I am on record here < CM > as saying I defend their right to build it, but I find it insensitive on their part to do it. Just as I find the Westboro Baptist Church insensitive and * Pastor * Terry Jones insensitive. So if I am prejudiced, it's a pretty wide net of prejudices I have. I can live with being prejudiced against insensitivity.

             mbmbn



Lordandmaster -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 2:41:21 AM)

mbmn--Would you accept this analogy?

White man wants to build a house near Little Big Horn.  Some Indian says, "No, white man, you can't build your house here--you white people destroyed my entire tribe!  We used to number in the thousands!  But you attacked and annihilated us only because you wanted our land."  White man says, "I'm sorry for that, but it wasn't this white man who did all that to your people.  And anyway I bought this house, and I'm not violating any zoning restrictions, so I can legally move in here.  And as a matter of fact, I've had the deed to this house since before Little Big Horn even happened.  You've never objected before."  Indian says, "But it was a very traumatic experience for me!  You white people should respect our feelings and go build your house somewhere else."

Actually, it's not a valid analogy, and I'll tell you why: the people who are objecting to the mosque aren't from New York.  They're from no-fucking-where (like Wasilla, Alaska).  Hell, they couldn't even find Ground Zero with a map.

Otherwise, it's a valid analogy.



Elisabella -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 2:54:01 AM)

Just out of curiosity where is the line drawn between insensitivity and oversensitivity?



maybemaybenot -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 3:07:48 AM)

Yes LAM, that's a decent anaolgy. I still struggle with building a home vs building a commericial property however. If this Cultural Center and Mosque were going to be apartment complexes, then I would see a closer analogy. Or if in your example, the White man was building center dedicated to General Custer.

Elisabella:
Good question. I'm not so sure there is a line to be drawn. What may be sensitive to me, may be overly sensitive to another and vice versa. I think it has to do with one's own life experiences as opposed to a set point that can be used as a measuring stick.

                    mbmbn



hertz -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 3:11:31 AM)

VioletGray  is right.



WhipsAndGiggles -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 3:15:58 AM)

popeye1250 and maybemaybenot: I don't think closeness is a necessary prerequisite for an analogy. "Resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike." Its unlike because of the amount of loss of many lives vs. possessions, among other things. It resembles the situation in the particular sense of assigning blame and judgement to all people of a certain group because of the actions of a few isolated members is happening in both examples.

The fact that some people who identify as an extreme, minority, version of Muslim committed evil acts doesn't indicate those activities are accepted or endorsed by Islam or most Muslims in general. And in fact, they are not. They are offshoots and interpretations, as far as I am aware. Maybe we could debate THAT, in which case I'd like to see some of the majority moderate Muslim spiritual leaders weigh in on that. Oh wait. They actually did. ... And it turns out they aren't remotely the first to do so, even.

If you keep acting like all or most of the Muslims really are terrorists then yeah, maybe it seems insensitive that terrorists would want to build a terrorist endorsing place of worship near a site that was terrorized. The reality is though... Muslims were also terrorized on that day. They also lost people who were precious. They were also killed. How can it be insensitive for our fellow, terrorized Americans to build a place of worship near a location that they were also terrorized at? They're people too, with feelings, needs and loss. They're not being insensitive to the victims, they were victims too and they have every right, just like anyone of any faith to build anything on property they are legally entitled to have. If it forces people who have issues with Muslims in general to confront their misconceptions, become more accepting and tolerant individuals, it seems like it would be a painful but necessary thing. We've got to grow up. This irrational blame-game is a major part of the problem happening in the world.



WhipsAndGiggles -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 3:25:34 AM)

Lordandmaster: My slave (raised in a Catholic family) said that he heard this analogy: This is as insensitive as building a Catholic church next to a playground. [sm=whoa.gif]



maybemaybenot -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 3:48:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipsAndGiggles

If you keep acting like all or most of the Muslims really are terrorists then yeah, maybe it seems insensitive that terrorists would want to build a terrorist endorsing place of worship near a site that was terrorized. The reality is though... Muslims were also terrorized on that day. They also lost people who were precious. They were also killed. How can it be insensitive for our fellow, terrorized Americans to build a place of worship near a location that they were also terrorized at? They're people too, with feelings, needs and loss. They're not being insensitive to the victims, they were victims too and they have every right, just like anyone of any faith to build anything on property they are legally entitled to have. If it forces people who have issues with Muslims in general to confront their misconceptions, become more accepting and tolerant individuals, it seems like it would be a painful but necessary thing. We've got to grow up. This irrational blame-game is a major part of the problem happening in the world.


Please find me something I have said that brings you to the conclusion that I think or act like all or most Muslims are terrorists. You could not be farther from the truth in that statement.

I have repeatedly said I stand by their right to buiild the Mosque.

Where is there a blame game ?  By saying that I believe it to be insensitive is not putting blame on anyone. It's an opinion.

You do realize that there is a population of Muslims here in the USA who believe exactly as I do ? 

Building a Cultural Center and Mosque is not going to force anyone to become more accepting and tolerant. I suspect it will do just the opposite to those your example applies to. I fear that if this Mosque is built that some wingnut or group of wingnuts will take it into their own hands to commit a terrorist act against the Center and Mosque. That is not a arguement against bulding it, just a commentary and something I  find a very real probablility and horrifically sad.

                       mbmbn



StrangerThan -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 5:24:44 AM)

I'll give you a scenario that makes more sense to me.

There's an internet group called XYZ. They are comprised of every race on the planet. A group of them come in your neighborhood and kill all the children in a school. A few years later, a member of XYZ moves in next to the school with the intention of tearing the house down and erecting a structure that is both a monument to XYZ and is open for you to come see how nice they really are.  Some in your neighborhood think it is insensitive for him to do so even though he says he is nothing like the others and we can agree he doesn't have the same type of background.

A few weeks later, he goes and hangs out with more members of XYZ, comes back and tells you that if he doesn't build it there, it may cause them to come kill more kids in your neighborhood. In fact, some of the more militant members of XYZ publicly state the monument should go there or there will be a backlash that you will have to deal with.

That makes more sense to me, but you can be pro mosque all you like. Hell, I'll be pro mosque with you if they move it. And no where is there any debate on the right.



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