RE: This is what made me pro-mosque

RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 4:42:06 AM)
The constitution is not subject to popularity. Thank God.

VioletGray -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:24:43 AM)
::facepalm:: Wow. So many of you STILL don't get it. Popeye, I'm not saying this in an angry way but I'm convinced that you have given up on reasonable dialog so, Please don't be offended but I've done the mental equivalent of patting you on the top of the head and sending you to play with your crayons. My original post is about the concept of being wronged, how we deal with it, who we assign blame to and why. About how emotional and traumatic events can affect people, and what they do as a result. In that way at least, it is EXACTLY like what's happening now. People keep saying things like, "This is a symbol of their victory!" If so, it's a pretty strange one. I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but it's 2 floors out of what, 20? How many monuments to victory have a basketball court and a culinary school? DEATH TO INFIDELS!!!! ALSO, TRY THESE CREPES!!!!! Maybe I'll add more after work.

Owner59 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:40:05 AM)
For a number of CM members,mostly conservative,this subject(and most every subject of import) is a play toy, to abuse.

thishereboi -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 6:31:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray ::facepalm:: Wow. So many of you STILL don't get it. Popeye, I'm not saying this in an angry way but I'm convinced that you have given up on reasonable dialog so, Please don't be offended but I've done the mental equivalent of patting you on the top of the head and sending you to play with your crayons. Don't be offended if I say this has to be one of the most condescending things I have ever read on CM[8\|] My original post is about the concept of being wronged, how we deal with it, who we assign blame to and why. About how emotional and traumatic events can affect people, and what they do as a result. In that way at least, it is EXACTLY like what's happening now. Actually it was comparing two situations that had nothing to do with each other, which several people pointed out. People keep saying things like, "This is a symbol of their victory!" If so, it's a pretty strange one. I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but it's 2 floors out of what, 20? How many monuments to victory have a basketball court and a culinary school? DEATH TO INFIDELS!!!! ALSO, TRY THESE CREPES!!!!! They keep saying things like that because for whatever reason they believe it. Is it so hard to try and understand why they may feel that way just because you don't understand it? Is it really that important to the other side that the center be built in that exact spot? Maybe I'll add more after work.

GotSteel -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 9:27:11 AM)
I enjoyed your OP, the analogy I've been using involves catholic churches and playgrounds but I think yours may be better.

MastrVran -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 10:27:24 AM)
Ok lets look at something very similar in concept. A Member of a Christian Church, blows up an abortion center. 5 unwed teen mothers, 4 teachers walking by, 3 children playing, 2 nurses and 1 Doctor all die in the bombing. The Church he belongs to claim this is terrible that he killed these evil people whose souls were already damned to Hell. Most of them make this claim in Public anyway. Oh and the innocents who also died from being nearby were tainted by even having such a den of iniquity near them. They should have been elsewhere. Then a year later the same Church buys the land and decides to build a center for unwed mothers and a day care center there. (Yes its right on the spot, not just nearby, but since so many focus on it being at ground zero is there really enough distance to argue about?) For some reason the people who lost family here have an issue with this church being allowed to build here. The church says that are just building this to help the poor unfortunate girls not have to make such a damning decision that effects their eternal souls. Its not really trying to show the abortionists that they were wrong and the church was right. Or any other political or religious statement. Just a friendly act of compassion. MV

tazzygirl -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 10:30:30 AM)
~FR Guess the fact that we, as a nation, were threatened with violence if the mosque isnt built or is forced to move doesnt seem to phase anyone?

rulemylife -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 10:39:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I like this analogy better: A group of religious men who hate the US and everything it stands for decided that they could best insult and damage this country by destroying some symbols of things that they hate. This included the White House, the Pentagon, and the World Trade Center (Political, Military, Cultural and Economic symbols). They were partial successful and killed thousands in addition to completely destroying the WTC. Some members of their religion around the world praised them and their accomplishments. Years later, on the ashes of the location of the murder of thousands of those Americans, other members of the same religion who destroyed this symbol of American Economic and Cultural power decided to build a structure to commemorate their religion near the site of the first groups "success". To some members of this particular religious group, this will seen as a confirmation of the success and correctness of the original murder and destruction. A symbolic "Victory" memorial, so to speak. To some citizens of the United States, this building will also be seen as a symbolic "Victory" memorial by this religious group, in their attempts to destroy the United States and kill American citizens. These American citizens, and others who see this building as an "in your face" affront oppose the building of this structure at, or near this location for the symbolism that it inspires. I think this analogy fits the situation much better. Firm Let's break down your analogy into its simplest terms. You've taken great pains to use the phrase "some members" in an apparent attempt to show your lack of bias. But then you go on to condemn those who had nothing to do with the terror attacks, and who have in fact vociferously denounced them, as somehow reveling in the success of those attacks.

rulemylife -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 10:42:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~FR Guess the fact that we, as a nation, were threatened with violence if the mosque isnt built or is forced to move doesnt seem to phase anyone? Is that how you interpreted what Rauf said, as a threat?

tazzygirl -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 10:53:48 AM)
"My major concern with moving it is that the headline in the Muslim world will be Islam is under attack in America," he said. "This will strengthen the radicals in the Muslim world, help their recruitment." Did i misread something? Or should we simply give in because of a possibility of what may happen based upon the words of the man speaking with such certainty? Im not against the mosque being built where they want it. What i am against is being told we better not move it because the backlash in another country should take precedence over the backlash in our own country.

BoiJen -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 10:54:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 The constitution is not subject to popularity. Thank God. Tell that to the queer folk. boi

BoiJen -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 10:55:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl What i am against is being told we better not move it because the backlash in another country should take precedence over the backlash in our own country. Like.

Archer -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 11:01:03 AM)
I'm in that Obama zone when it comes to the mosque in question. I find it in poor taste that when told it comes across as a slap in the face they want to continue to push the issue, but they have every right to be in poor taste. I don't advocate any Government sponsored preventative measures when it comes to the mosque. To compare the slap in the face to just being racist falls short for me it rings as a hollow attempt to paint the opposition into a corner. When I look at things with as fair a judgement as I can muster (and that may not meet your standards of fair) I find the mosque to be an insult at that location, a placement in poor taste, lacking compassion. I am not convinced either way as to the Imam's intent, I find his closeness to the project to be as likely to color his vision on the mosque. It's his project I'm sure he will say most anything to make it happen, not in any real way unlike anyone else who has a project they are trying to get done. He's going to advocate for his position and he can't be considered unbiased. His goal may have been healing, the unintended consequences have been more division. The idea that this couldn't be considered a "victory mosque" ignores centuries of history in which mosques have been erected in the locations of Muslim "victories". Not too unlike Christian history of churches and holidays being built on top of pagan holidays and sacred sites. The intent again may not be the whole story, intent might be tolerance and interfaith dialog, the reality is there will be those Islamists who will see it as a victory mosque and a monument to the terrorists. Now since words tend to be interchanged so easily let me be clear in my use of the words Islamist and Muslim. An Islamist is a Muslim who's primary interest is in spreading the fundamentalist Muslim faith, the same way that Fundamentalist Christians are interested in actively trying to spread their faith. Fundamentalist sects contain most of the radicals in both the Christian and the Muslim religions. So when I talk about Islamists I am not talking about the majority of Muslims, but that subset that is the rough equivalent of the Christian fundamentalist evangelical movement that produces most of the radicals in the Christian world. Islamists will see the mosque as a victory mosque regardless of the intent of the Imam.

Politesub53 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 11:14:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl "My major concern with moving it is that the headline in the Muslim world will be Islam is under attack in America," he said. "This will strengthen the radicals in the Muslim world, help their recruitment." Did i misread something? Or should we simply give in because of a possibility of what may happen based upon the words of the man speaking with such certainty? Im not against the mosque being built where they want it. What i am against is being told we better not move it because the backlash in another country should take precedence over the backlash in our own country. Indeeed you did misread something. The first three words "MY MAJOR CONCERN" Dont let that get in the way of your self righteousness though. You are claiming his concern was a threat, the two words are very distinct.

tazzygirl -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 11:18:55 AM)
First, i never said the man threated us directly. Second, read his statement again. Is he not in a position to declare, with some certainty, what may happen within that movement? Third, my righteous indignantion? Umm.. lets see... i have already said i have no problem with where they intend to build the mosgue. I have pointed out before exactly what else is located within the same area. I have not declared myself dead set against the building. Explain to me what is righteous about my position?

rulemylife -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 11:28:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl "My major concern with moving it is that the headline in the Muslim world will be Islam is under attack in America," he said. "This will strengthen the radicals in the Muslim world, help their recruitment." Did i misread something? Or should we simply give in because of a possibility of what may happen based upon the words of the man speaking with such certainty? Im not against the mosque being built where they want it. What i am against is being told we better not move it because the backlash in another country should take precedence over the backlash in our own country. Yes, I think you did. Saying that other countries will see this as hypocrisy, considering our professed dedication to freedom of religion, is not a threat. Saying that extremists will point to that hypocrisy and use it as a recruiting tool is just facing reality.

Politesub53 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 11:29:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl First, i never said the man threated us directly. Oh yes you did " Guess the fact that we, as a nation, were threatened with violence if the mosque isnt built or is forced to move doesnt seem to phase anyone? " << Taken from post 67 quote: Second, read his statement again. Is he not in a position to declare, with some certainty, what may happen within that movement? He can make an educated guess, but speak with some certainty....hardly. quote: Third, my righteous indignantion? Umm.. lets see... i have already said i have no problem with where they intend to build the mosgue. I have pointed out before exactly what else is located within the same area. I have not declared myself dead set against the building. Explain to me what is righteous about my position? Again, see post 67..... He didnt threaten anyone, but you have already decided he did.

Archer -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 11:53:33 AM)
politesub I see it as a relayed threat. The Imam wasn't issueing the threat but rather relaying it because it served his purpose to relay that threat. His purpose being HIS mosque project. When the project belongs to the man it's impossible to consider him an unbiased source of the feelings of the Muslim faith world wide.

popeye1250 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 12:03:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray ::facepalm:: Wow. So many of you STILL don't get it. Popeye, I'm not saying this in an angry way but I'm convinced that you have given up on reasonable dialog so, Please don't be offended but I've done the mental equivalent of patting you on the top of the head and sending you to play with your crayons. My original post is about the concept of being wronged, how we deal with it, who we assign blame to and why. About how emotional and traumatic events can affect people, and what they do as a result. In that way at least, it is EXACTLY like what's happening now. People keep saying things like, "This is a symbol of their victory!" If so, it's a pretty strange one. I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but it's 2 floors out of what, 20? How many monuments to victory have a basketball court and a culinary school? DEATH TO INFIDELS!!!! ALSO, TRY THESE CREPES!!!!! Maybe I'll add more after work. Ok, what if a bunch of Presbytarians blew up Messina, you know, that big rock that muslims march around once a year and then, a few years later "other" Presbytarians wanted to build a church at that site? That'd be cool, right?

SuzanneKneeling -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 12:15:38 PM)
The original post here sums the situation up so eloquently. I wish those 70% of Americans could see how foolish they're being. Or to give it another flavor: I was cheated in a business transaction nine years ago by a group of 19 Republicans, and lost thousands of dollars due to their fraudulent business practices. So I have now an open wound when it comes to Republicans. Therefore, out of sensitivity to my trauma, all OTHER Republicans - including those who would never dream of cheating someone and only want to live their lives honestly - should refrain from starting businesses in my city. I don't ask for much - just that they rearrange their lives entirely to cater to and indulge my carefully-nursed grudge. There are plenty of other cities they could move to and have their businesses. It's nothing personal. Well, maybe it is, but they should still live their lives tiptoeing around my bad experience. Just because they're Republicans, you know. It's not too much to ask, is it? Just a little sensitivity. And besides, they're just Republicans. It's not like they're human beings. It's insane. But that's our country these days. Reason just isn't on the table much anymore. All we get is FauxNews-style hatemongering and demagoguing.

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