RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (Full Version)

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VioletGray -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 5:53:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipsAndGiggles

Thank heaven for YOU. I wish this would go viral. Mind if I send this example to some judgmental people that might benefit from it?


Of course not! Send away! :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"A black man robbed my house."
"Members of the muslim faith hyjacked four planes, crashed two of them into the WTC towers and collapsed them killing three thousand people then crashed a third into the pentagon killing scores more then crashed the last one in a field in Pa. killing all onboard."
Yeah, that's pretty close I guess.


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how a robber of one individual is analagous with a group of terrorists who have killed thousands.

I'm having trouble understanding how the purchase of a home is analagous with building of a Cultural Center and Mosque. I'm even having trouble understanding how the purchase of a home is analagous with the building of any commerical building.



The basic principle is the same, just the scale is different.  Just like the Mini-Cooper and the Hummer both have essentially the same parts (a combustion engine, a transmission etc.) even though one is FAR larger than the other.  Or like the way gardening shears are similar to those plastic scissors you used in grade school.





JstAnotherSub -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:06:02 AM)

It absolutely is their right to build it.  That does not mean it is the best thing for them to do in order to improve relations here in America.

some Muslims even see this and do not want it.

I think them fighting to build there is in bad taste, and will do more harm than good.  I feel that way about that crazy dude in Florida wanting to burn their holy book also. 

Having the right does not make it right.




StrangerThan -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:14:02 AM)

The basic principle would be the same if you were making equal comparisons. It's not a mini-cooper and Hummer debate though.

It's more like mini-cooper and land mine.

Edited to add, actually it's more like Hummer and landmine given they've been in contact with each other quite frequently in historic context of this specific debate.




NorthernGent -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:21:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

It absolutely is their right to build it.  That does not mean it is the best thing for them to do in order to improve relations here in America.

some Muslims even see this and do not want it.

I think them fighting to build there is in bad taste, and will do more harm than good.  I feel that way about that crazy dude in Florida wanting to burn their holy book also. 

Having the right does not make it right.



Couldn't be more wrong.

You're saying that in order to have good relations they have to pander to your ideas of 'insenstivity' and 'relations building'. Why? They have nothing to do with the New York incident so why should they behave as if they have? In the interest of relationship...that is your personal rules on developing a relationship....when did they get a say in this? Democracy eh.....They shouldn't have to defend their right....under the law.....to religious equality...just becuase you and a few others think there's some sort of insenstivity. The bloke burning the book is an entirely different matter as he's aiming to stoke up trouble/belittle a religion.....take your pick....whereas they are simply aiming to build a place of worship....you must see that one is an aggressive action while the other is the freedom to chase your individual initiatives with no aggression involved whatsoever.....

This is exactly the sort of thing people went through in the 17th century of religious strife....excuses...accusations.....implications.....but when it comes down to it the only solution is freedom of religion under the law.....no matter the appeal to emotions......

And at this juncture....you're not painting a good picture of US tolerance......some may say......nice rules...just need to put them into practice to make them mean something....although to be fair with 300 million of you there are always going to be some who do not practice what they preach.....




VioletGray -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:24:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I'll give you a scenario that makes more sense to me.

There's an internet group called XYZ. They are comprised of every race on the planet. A group of them come in your neighborhood and kill all the children in a school. A few years later, a member of XYZ moves in next to the school with the intention of tearing the house down and erecting a structure that is both a monument to XYZ and is open for you to come see how nice they really are.  Some in your neighborhood think it is insensitive for him to do so even though he says he is nothing like the others and we can agree he doesn't have the same type of background.

A few weeks later, he goes and hangs out with more members of XYZ, comes back and tells you that if he doesn't build it there, it may cause them to come kill more kids in your neighborhood. In fact, some of the more militant members of XYZ publicly state the monument should go there or there will be a backlash that you will have to deal with.

That makes more sense to me, but you can be pro mosque all you like. Hell, I'll be pro mosque with you if they move it. And no where is there any debate on the right.



I think your analogy would make more sense if all Muslims knew each other, or 'hung out' wit each other.  From what I understand the Imam worked extensively with Bush, and was criticized by some in the Muslim world actually as being too pro-u.s.  Here are some details that you're having trouble with:

It wouldn't be that a member of group XYZ is saying "he's not like the others."  He'd be saying that the shooter in XYZ was a weirdo in the minority, and that the others are not like him. See the problem here is that at on a subconscious level you are demonizing all Muslims, because you painted the scenario of a lone member of XYZ who was not like the violent majority, instead of the other way around.

No where is there any debate on the right to build the mosque?   What about those people who are trying to stop it by having it declared a historic landmark?

edited for punctuation and spelling.




domiguy -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:29:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"A black man robbed my house."
"Members of the muslim faith hyjacked four planes, crashed two of them into the WTC towers and collapsed them killing three thousand people then crashed a third into the pentagon killing scores more then crashed the last one in a field in Pa. killing all onboard."
Yeah, that's pretty close I guess.



Americans blew up a builiding in Oklahoma City....You hate all Americans, pinhead?

It would be nice if you got out between Howie Carr's legs every now and again....Your brain is in dire need of some oxygen.

22% of the world's population is Muslim....Wow! I did that without a teleprompter!

Get over yourself.




THELADY -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:34:04 AM)

I like strangers anology, that really hits the nail directly on the head.

its a community center in the middle of a business district, what community are they building it for?

they are naming it after a victory mosque that was built to show their dominance, just concidence?

the head imom is a radical, who wrote about their victory, but that dosen't mean everyone who attends will believe the same. some may follow him for 20 years but never hear what he says(yes that's a dig at obama who went to a radical church, called his preacher his spiritual advisor then said he never heard the man say radical things)

yes they have the right to build a place of worship but do they have the right to threaten us if they are opposed? are they building a bridge of understanding or division? because they don't seem to be very understanding......

as has been said, having the right does not make it right.




StrangerThan -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:37:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I'll give you a scenario that makes more sense to me.

There's an internet group called XYZ. They are comprised of every race on the planet. A group of them come in your neighborhood and kill all the children in a school. A few years later, a member of XYZ moves in next to the school with the intention of tearing the house down and erecting a structure that is both a monument to XYZ and is open for you to come see how nice they really are.  Some in your neighborhood think it is insensitive for him to do so even though he says he is nothing like the others and we can agree he doesn't have the same type of background.

A few weeks later, he goes and hangs out with more members of XYZ, comes back and tells you that if he doesn't build it there, it may cause them to come kill more kids in your neighborhood. In fact, some of the more militant members of XYZ publicly state the monument should go there or there will be a backlash that you will have to deal with.

That makes more sense to me, but you can be pro mosque all you like. Hell, I'll be pro mosque with you if they move it. And no where is there any debate on the right.



I think your analogy would make more sense if all Muslims knew each other, or 'hung out' wit each other.  From what I understand the Imam worked extensively with Bush, and was criticized by some in the Muslim world actually as being too pro-u.s.  Here are some other details you're having trouble with:

Its not that a member of group XYZ is saying "he's not like the others."  He'd be saying that the shooter in XYZ was weirdo in the minority, and that the others are not like him. See the problem here, is that at on a subconscious level you are demonizing all Muslims, because as you painted the scenario as the lone member of XYZ who was not like the violent majority, instead of the other way around.

No where is there any debate on the right to build the mosque?   What about those people who are trying to stop it by having it declared a historic landmark?





Alright, then I'll change my scenario.

"There's an internet group called XYZ. They are comprised of every race on the planet. A group of them come in your neighborhood and kill all the children in a school. A few years later, a member of XYZ moves in next to the school with the intention of tearing the house down and erecting a structure that is both a monument to XYZ and is open for you to come see how nice they really are.  Some in your neighborhood think it is insensitive for him to do so even though he says he is nothing like the the ones who came and killed your kids and we can agree he doesn't have the same type of background. We can also agree that there are other members of XYZ who don't share that type of background.

A few weeks later, he goes and hangs out with more members of XYZ, comes back and tells you that if he doesn't build it there, it may cause them to come kill more kids in your neighborhood. In fact, some of the more militant members of XYZ publicly state the monument should go there or there will be a backlash that you will have to deal with.

That makes more sense to me, but you can be pro mosque all you like. Hell, I'll be pro mosque with you if they move it. And no where is there any debate on the right."

There you go.

It has less to do with demonizing muslims than it does recognizing the fact that this is an emotional issue for much of America.




LaTigresse -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:40:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"A black man robbed my house."
"Members of the muslim faith hyjacked four planes, crashed two of them into the WTC towers and collapsed them killing three thousand people then crashed a third into the pentagon killing scores more then crashed the last one in a field in Pa. killing all onboard."
Yeah, that's pretty close I guess.


How about this one then Pop. A really annoying stupid white guy from Texas bought his way into a presidency, running MY country. He fucked it up royally. He sent many thousands of My fellow country men and women to war for a personal grudge. Many of my country men and women died because of his stupidity. Yet, somehow, I have met and welcomed several white Texans into my home.

OH............MY.........GAWD!!!!!!!!!




StrangerThan -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:41:30 AM)

She was right in her picking point. I painted him as one voice in the menagerie. While that is not correct, the analogy points to the fact that one man, imam rauf leads the delegation to erect this structure.

Ignoring that there are others, is equivalent to ignoring the others who run around acting like cavemen when they perceive an insult. I'll grant her point.  




Elisabella -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:44:40 AM)

quote:

You're saying that in order to have good relations they have to pander to your ideas of 'insenstivity' and 'relations building'. Why? They have nothing to do with the New York incident so why should they behave as if they have? In the interest of relationship...that is your personal rules on developing a relationship....when did they get a say in this?


Exactly...considering there was a group that wanted to burn the Koran over this I don't think "sensitivity" is the issue.




LaTigresse -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 6:45:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Isn't the United States supposed to be the freedom of religion and the right of a private organisation to fund its operations free from government intervention?

Seems to me it's a case of hypocrisy....and prejudice.....

As the OP said.....people are entitled to oppose it....but be honest about it.....it's discrimination on religious/cultural grounds.....and the only conclusion you can draw is that the principles of freedom of religion and private enterprise apply only to the majority.....


Supposed to be, is the key. The problem is that the country is allowing a small number of ultra conservative right wing wackos wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much credit. Those wackos are doing a bang up job tweaking the media and stirring up a lot of hate and discontent that has no common sense foundation. If the more intelligent, moderate Republicans don't put a kabosh on the wackos.......it's not going to be pretty.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 7:25:29 AM)

NG I feel that there were enough of us (Americans) that made it loud and clear that we thought the dumbass in Florida was a jackass.  We come out against such ignorance all the time.

The loudest segment of Islam is the extremists. The mainstream of Islam are not violent nutcases.  I think this would be one helluva good way for the non extremist of Islam to show us that they really disagree with the notion (not the right but the notion) of a "recreation center" being built there, and they understand it would be rubbing salt into the wounds of many Americans. 

I know no ones mind will change on this, and who knows if there is a way to mend thousands of years of war, but.......well.......I am just a dumb chick so I could be wrong.

Don't feel wrong though-lol.




Lordandmaster -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 8:10:34 AM)

Cute. The one I've used is "This is as insensitive as building a church in Oklahoma City."

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipsAndGiggles

Lordandmaster: My slave (raised in a Catholic family) said that he heard this analogy: This is as insensitive as building a Catholic church next to a playground. [sm=whoa.gif]





Lordandmaster -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 8:12:41 AM)

No, more like if the white man was going to build a church. The Ground Zero mosque is not going to be dedicated to terrorists.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Yes LAM, that's a decent anaolgy. I still struggle with building a home vs building a commericial property however. If this Cultural Center and Mosque were going to be apartment complexes, then I would see a closer analogy. Or if in your example, the White man was building center dedicated to General Custer.





willbeurdaddy -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 8:25:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how a robber of one individual is analagous with a group of terrorists who have killed thousands.

I'm having trouble understanding how the purchase of a home is analagous with building of a Cultural Center and Mosque. I'm even having trouble understanding how the purchase of a home is analagous with the building of any commerical building.

Maybe... and it's a strech for me.... if you used the former president of the Bloods vs a random robber... I * might* see it closer to an analogy. But probably not.
  
                           mbmbn


to put it more simply, the analogy isnt even close.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 8:29:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

mbmn--Would you accept this analogy?

White man wants to build a house near Little Big Horn.  Some Indian says, "No, white man, you can't build your house here--you white people destroyed my entire tribe!  We used to number in the thousands!  But you attacked and annihilated us only because you wanted our land."  White man says, "I'm sorry for that, but it wasn't this white man who did all that to your people.  And anyway I bought this house, and I'm not violating any zoning restrictions, so I can legally move in here.  And as a matter of fact, I've had the deed to this house since before Little Big Horn even happened.  You've never objected before."  Indian says, "But it was a very traumatic experience for me!  You white people should respect our feelings and go build your house somewhere else."

Actually, it's not a valid analogy, and I'll tell you why: the people who are objecting to the mosque aren't from New York.  They're from no-fucking-where (like Wasilla, Alaska).  Hell, they couldn't even find Ground Zero with a map.

Otherwise, it's a valid analogy.


This is a much better analogy. And guess what...you cant build on a reservation without approval of the tribe, so thank you for supporting those who object.

Unfortunately you are dead wrong about the people who are objecting not being from NY.

1) 70% of NYers are against it
2) You dont have to be from NY to have lost someone in the attack
3) It was an attack against America, not an attack against NY.




NorthernGent -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 9:13:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

The loudest segment of Islam is the extremists. The mainstream of Islam are not violent nutcases.  I think this would be one helluva good way for the non extremist of Islam to show us that they really disagree with the notion (not the right but the notion) of a "recreation center" being built there, and they understand it would be rubbing salt into the wounds of many Americans. 



Just a dumb chick eh?.......see you have self-pity as a tool to try and turn the conversation into something it's not!....never mind....

Anyway.....

You say yourself: "the mainstream of Islam are not violent nutcases". Agreed.

So why do they need to take action to not 'rub salt into your wounds'? They can only rub salt into your wounds if you somehow hold them accountable for what happened....seems to be a somewhat respectable version of Islamophobia you're peddling......yes...you're not blaming them all outright....but you are suggesting they owe you a favour in the guise of 'sensitivity'.....it doesn't wash I'm afraid. There's a reason why the law is there is to resolve individual disputes....and that is so that people like yourself who think they're owed something don't take matters into their own hands. I'd imagine that anyone using any sort of force to prevent this....will find themselves up in court....and that's because the law doesn't agree with you but it does promote the legal right of individual enterprise. The laws of your own land suggest you're in the wrong.

I know...I know....you have the right to be offended...of course you do.....but you have a duty...assuming you have any sort of claim to community spirit.....to be responsible in terms of when and where you choose to be offended.




Lordandmaster -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 10:39:56 AM)

Where do you find these numbers?  You just make them up?

Anyway, it doesn't even matter who is "against it."  The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion in this country.  It's weird to see all these so-called "Constitution-first" right-wingers frothing at the mouth when someone wants to exercise their Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

1) 70% of NYers are against it




Sanity -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/12/2010 11:07:38 AM)


Whats weird is how dismissive you so-called Liberals are of others' Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech. Was it frothing at the mouth when leftists disagreed with the liberation of Iraq? Or didnt like Ws victory over Gore?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Where do you find these numbers?  You just make them up?

Anyway, it doesn't even matter who is "against it."  The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion in this country.  It's weird to see all these so-called "Constitution-first" right-wingers frothing at the mouth when someone wants to exercise their Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

1) 70% of NYers are against it





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