RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


Moonhead -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/15/2010 2:23:57 PM)

Well, if he doesn't know how to tie a turban, that's close enough.




mnottertail -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/15/2010 2:27:35 PM)

I have yet to see him successfully untie some of the gordian knots hes created for himself out here, he sure aint no muslim like houdini, is he?




Lordandmaster -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/15/2010 2:40:36 PM)

Ummm where's the crock?  Sure, converting the Hagia Sophia to a mosque might be considered a war crime today.  So what?  It didn't happen today.  Christians did many things that would be considered war crimes today too, and no one questions their right to build churches.  Does the fact that people did atrocious things in the past mean that no one ever has the right to build a house of worship?  Surely not.  So I stand by my statement: the Hagia Sophia has nothing to do with this debate.

If you think Christians should have a right to build churches in Oklahoma City, then you must think Muslims should have a right to build mosques in NYC.  That's really the long and short of it.  "Christians" are no more or less responsible for the Oklahoma City attack than "Muslims" are for 9/11.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

L&M What a crock, My original statement included that it was a practice that Christians used as well, but in the rush to call "bigot" some folks ignored that point.

Post 72

"The idea that this couldn't be considered a "victory mosque" ignores centuries of history in which mosques have been erected in the locations of Muslim "victories". Not too unlike Christian history of churches and holidays being built on top of pagan holidays and sacred sites."...


Politesub your holding to my exact words versus the idea expressed wins a point and loses one. The distinction between building on top of the physical foundation after destroying a building and converting by extensive remodeling (such as the case in Hagia Sophia) while fair point when holding someone to exact verbage ignores that the church was in fact converted. It was a church but it isn't now.

Today it would be considered a war crime.




Archer -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/15/2010 2:52:04 PM)

Here is the specific crock I was referring to in your quote.

Archer said "Not too unlike Christian history of churches and holidays being built on top of pagan holidays and sacred sites."

L&M said ..."You guys really think no Christian in human history ever built a victory church?"

The crock is the question above ignores the original point I made specifically saying that Christians had a like practice. So it was a bullshit line based on nothing, designed as a poor excuse for rhetoric. The idea was stipulated to in the original post and AGAIN you ignore that fact when you ask "what crock?"

How about a shred of intellectual honesty here. Your "throw away" spoke to something stipulated to in my own post pages ago that you chose to ignore twice.






Lordandmaster -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/15/2010 2:54:17 PM)

Archer,

This may come as a shock to you, but I don't bother to read every word you write over the course of a ten-page thread.  And anyway I said "you guys," not "Archer."  Why you persist in this when even you have to agree that the Hagia Sophia has abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with the NYC mosque is beyond me.  Seems like you want to fight, and I'm a little too mature for that.

So go wrangle with someone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Here is the specific crock I was referring to in your quote.

Archer said "Not too unlike Christian history of churches and holidays being built on top of pagan holidays and sacred sites."

L&M said ..."You guys really think no Christian in human history ever built a victory church?"

The crock is the question above ignores the original point I made specifically saying that Christians had a like practice. So it was a bullshit line based on nothing, designed as a poor excuse for rhetoric. The idea was stipulated to in the original post and AGAIN you ignore that fact when you ask "what crock?"

How about a shred of intellectual honesty here. Your "throw away" spoke to something stipulated to in my own post pages ago that you chose to ignore twice.







Demspotis -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/15/2010 3:21:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Well, if he doesn't know how to tie a turban, that's close enough.


Although it's a bit off-topic, in hopes of preventing scapegoating of a type that has cost innocent lives, most Muslims don't wear turbans, and most of the people who wear turbans in the US belong to the different and entirely distinct Sikh religion, which in most respects shares modern American values (from both sides of the aisle)  far more than other religions. Not only are they not Muslim, but they have centuries of history of fighting and beating Muslim extremists, in particular the ancestors and director predecessors of the Taliban. This was after the Muslims tried to genocide the Sikhs.





mnottertail -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/15/2010 3:24:21 PM)

Your not outta line, me an moon were kiddin each other, what with me tryin to teach him the nuances of american politics (the limey bastard still lets go with an arse ever so often) and we were raising the level of debate to american, and he hangs in there pretty good.

We meant it all in fun.  It probably is instructive to one here and one there, the rest have no idea what you are on about.




Politesub53 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/15/2010 4:55:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So some folks like to change the subject instead of honestly debating.

What does a decree from a differnt church centuries later have to do with anything?



Your dishonesty, let alone stupidity, is underwhelming. You, among others, are trying to equate the planned Mosque in NYC with the Islamic conversion of Hagia Sophia. Now you have the cheek to moan about others equating events from differing timescales. Which way do you want it played, because as it stands you are losing both ways round.




SuzanneKneeling -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/16/2010 12:18:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Demspotis

Although it's a bit off-topic, in hopes of preventing scapegoating of a type that has cost innocent lives, most Muslims don't wear turbans, and most of the people who wear turbans in the US belong to the different and entirely distinct Sikh religion, which in most respects shares modern American values (from both sides of the aisle)  far more than other religions. Not only are they not Muslim, but they have centuries of history of fighting and beating Muslim extremists, in particular the ancestors and director predecessors of the Taliban. This was after the Muslims tried to genocide the Sikhs.



Historical and cultural facts don't matter much to the Xenophobic crowd that we're talking about here.  The Islamophobes do not care about the distinction between a Sikh and a Muslim, or that Imam Rauf is a Sufi (historically a pretty peaceful Muslim sect, at least by comparison to Christians), or that (further back) Saddam Hussein and Al Qaida shared a mutual loathing and could not be in league with each other.  All that matters is that these people are all dark-skinned, hail from far beyond the Tastee Freeze at the end of Main Street, and that Fox "News" has an agenda requiring their scapegoating.  The useful xenophobes have been commanded to hate and bark, and they are complying on cue.  Fox's viewers are more mindlessly compliant and obedient than any slave or sub on collarme.






Vendaval -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/16/2010 1:44:01 AM)

Fast Reply -

As an example of "bad taste" much closer to home there is the enslavement, forced conversion and genocide of the California Native Americans that was systemtically carried out by the Spanish Catholic Dominicans, Jesuits, and Franciscans in the name of God. There are 21 missions in Alta California and 23 in Baja California. These missions and churches meet the same criteria as is being used to describe a "victory mosque" in this thread.



"California Genocide"
Genocide is a strong word denoting a planned extermination of a racial, political or cultural group. It should not be used lightly. But what happened to the indigenous tribes of California qualifies as genocide, and that history is explored in A Seat at the Drum.



"Then in 1769, a Franciscan missionary named Father Junipero Serra led a Spanish army up from Mexico and reached present-day San Diego. It was he who built the first of 21 missions that would extend up north to San Francisco. When he encountered the Chumash, Fr. Serra failed to recognize a centuries-old religious tradition. "Believe me," he wrote, "when I saw their general behavior, their pleasing ways and engaging manners, my heart was broken to think that they were still deprived of the light of the Holy Gospel." He promptly set out to convert all the Indians he encountered to Christianity.

He also set out to make the native populations slaves to the farms supporting the missions. Spanish soldiers kidnapped Indians by the thousands. They were given Spanish names, dressed in blue uniforms and became farm workers — something they had never done. They also were forced to care for livestock, tanned hides, and produced candles, bricks, tiles, shoes, saddles, soap and other necessities.

If they misbehaved, they were whipped, branded, mutilated or even executed. Hundreds and thousands of Indians — both in the missions and in surrounding areas — died of malaria, smallpox or other new diseases imported by the Spanish for which there was no native immunity.

Beginning in 1775, many of the mission Indians began to revolt. Some 800 Ipai and Tipai Indians burned down the San Diego mission that year. The revolt was brutally put down by the Spanish soldiers, as were all of the revolts.

The years of warfare and mistreatment took their toll. At the Santa Barbara mission alone, more than 4,600 Chumash names fill the burial registry. Indians were put in mass graves near the church, and were denied either traditional or Christian burials."


http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/history/calif.html




Moonhead -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/16/2010 6:05:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Demspotis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Well, if he doesn't know how to tie a turban, that's close enough.


Although it's a bit off-topic, in hopes of preventing scapegoating of a type that has cost innocent lives, most Muslims don't wear turbans, and most of the people who wear turbans in the US belong to the different and entirely distinct Sikh religion, which in most respects shares modern American values (from both sides of the aisle)  far more than other religions. Not only are they not Muslim, but they have centuries of history of fighting and beating Muslim extremists, in particular the ancestors and director predecessors of the Taliban. This was after the Muslims tried to genocide the Sikhs.



Very true. As a rule, Sikhs and Muslims don't get on at all. They used to be most of the armed forces when India was still a British colony, didn't they?
(I was just making a crap joke about luckydawg wearing a nappy on his head, rather than an insightful comment about cultural clashes, to be honest.)




mnottertail -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/16/2010 6:09:49 AM)

Yeah, its towelheads, not turban heads over here, old boy.

Pip Pip! Cheerio!!!! Carry on!!!!!




Moonhead -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/16/2010 6:17:01 AM)

Jolly good show!




Steponme73 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/17/2010 5:03:43 PM)

I think Stranger Than has hit the nail on the head. His anaolgy is very close to reality. No one is debating their rite to have a mosque. The debate is over where it is.
Another thing to remember is the Muslim relegion considers everyone who is not a member, an infidel...and you know what they do to infidel's if they don't convert? Guess...they do it everyday even to their own kind. They kill them...women, men children it makes no difference to them. It is their way or be dead.
If the Muslims were a peace loving relegion, as some try to make them out to be, they would not still be stoning women to death because of hearsay evidence...It still happens. Maybe you think that is no big deal, but I do.
You see, no other religion on the planet is as radical or as ruthless as the Muslims. You may want them in your back yard, I want them back where they came from. Having spent many years in "their" land, I speak from experience.
The people in New York City are the ones that started the protest. Granted alot of people have joined in, but the final decision rests in New York.
Don't be so naive as to think they have good intentions...they don't. Muslims for years, thousands of years, have built mosques on "conquered" territory. This is what they are trying to do in New York.
The United States is a Judeo Christian based country not a Muslim based country. Look how many Mosques are already here... How many Christian churches do you see in the Middle East? Few if any. They will not allow it.
There is more to this debate than just a mosque...Maybe you want to be a Muslim in the future, but I have no desire.




Jeffff -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/17/2010 5:05:50 PM)

You can not debate the where.

You can argue the sensitivity, but not the right.

Where has no really place in this argument.

Anyone who thinks so is a fascist.




peacefulplace -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/17/2010 5:40:51 PM)

~FR~

Admittedly, did not read every single post in this thread, but has anyone pointed out the absolute outrage in building a Catholic cathedral next to a playground?

Just sayin', and if you think childhood sexual abuse of untold thousands is not just as bad as killing about 3,500 thousand, why not asked those who were abused by priests?

I find all religions to be wacky, hurtful, and sometimes crazy. However, I am an equal opportunity discriminator of religion, unlike many who oppose that mosque.




Politesub53 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/17/2010 5:44:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steponme73

I think Stranger Than has hit the nail on the head. His anaolgy is very close to reality. No one is debating their rite to have a mosque. The debate is over where it is.
Another thing to remember is the Muslim relegion considers everyone who is not a member, an infidel...and you know what they do to infidel's if they don't convert? Guess...they do it everyday even to their own kind. They kill them...women, men children it makes no difference to them. It is their way or be dead.
If the Muslims were a peace loving relegion, as some try to make them out to be, they would not still be stoning women to death because of hearsay evidence...It still happens. Maybe you think that is no big deal, but I do.
You see, no other religion on the planet is as radical or as ruthless as the Muslims. You may want them in your back yard, I want them back where they came from. Having spent many years in "their" land, I speak from experience.
The people in New York City are the ones that started the protest. Granted alot of people have joined in, but the final decision rests in New York.
Don't be so naive as to think they have good intentions...they don't. Muslims for years, thousands of years, have built mosques on "conquered" territory. This is what they are trying to do in New York.
The United States is a Judeo Christian based country not a Muslim based country. Look how many Mosques are already here... How many Christian churches do you see in the Middle East? Few if any. They will not allow it.
There is more to this debate than just a mosque...Maybe you want to be a Muslim in the future, but I have no desire.


I am wondering which one of "Their lands" you were in, since your whole post is riddled with inaccuracies. Christianity may not be widespread but is still freely practiced in many Islamic countries. You will also be hard pushed to find anywhere where Christians are put to death due to their faith. I sometimes wonder if some of you are even on planet earth as your claims as so far away from reality.

Edited for spelling.




Lucylastic -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/17/2010 6:00:25 PM)

Certainly, turn-out at church services all over the Arabian peninsular is significant. Numbers in the congregations regularly beat those in congregations in Europe and even in the United States. The majority of the two million expatriate Christians who attend these services are Filipinos, Lebanese and Indians who have come to the Gulf for work.Roman Catholics from all over the Arabian Peninsula - many of them migrant workers - are helping to pay for the $15m building, which is scheduled to open at the end of the year.http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2007/03/2008525184821608334.html

Oh and the protestants and the catholics are still fighting over in NI(as in july 2010)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jul/14/police-belfast-violence-ardoynePolice Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) assistant chief constable Alistair Finlay earlier singled out Robinson and McGuinness for criticism after the sustained violence surrounding July 12 Orange Order marches left 82 officers injured.





Moonhead -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/18/2010 4:55:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steponme73

I think Stranger Than has hit the nail on the head. His anaolgy is very close to reality. No one is debating their rite to have a mosque. The debate is over where it is.
Another thing to remember is the Muslim relegion considers everyone who is not a member, an infidel...and you know what they do to infidel's if they don't convert? Guess...they do it everyday even to their own kind. They kill them...women, men children it makes no difference to them. It is their way or be dead.
If the Muslims were a peace loving relegion, as some try to make them out to be, they would not still be stoning women to death because of hearsay evidence...It still happens. Maybe you think that is no big deal, but I do.
You see, no other religion on the planet is as radical or as ruthless as the Muslims. You may want them in your back yard, I want them back where they came from. Having spent many years in "their" land, I speak from experience.
The people in New York City are the ones that started the protest. Granted alot of people have joined in, but the final decision rests in New York.
Don't be so naive as to think they have good intentions...they don't. Muslims for years, thousands of years, have built mosques on "conquered" territory. This is what they are trying to do in New York.
The United States is a Judeo Christian based country not a Muslim based country. Look how many Mosques are already here... How many Christian churches do you see in the Middle East? Few if any. They will not allow it.
There is more to this debate than just a mosque...Maybe you want to be a Muslim in the future, but I have no desire.


I am wondering which one of "Their lands" you were in, since your whole post is riddled with inaccuracies. Christianity may not be widespread but is still freely practiced in many Islamic countries. You will also be hard pushed to find anywhere where Christians are put to death due to their faith. I sometimes wonder if some of you are even on planet earth as your claims as so far away from reality.

Edited for spelling.

Even the Egyptian coptics are getting forcibly converted, rather than killed.




thishereboi -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/18/2010 5:20:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Certainly, turn-out at church services all over the Arabian peninsular is significant. Numbers in the congregations regularly beat those in congregations in Europe and even in the United States. The majority of the two million expatriate Christians who attend these services are Filipinos, Lebanese and Indians who have come to the Gulf for work.Roman Catholics from all over the Arabian Peninsula - many of them migrant workers - are helping to pay for the $15m building, which is scheduled to open at the end of the year.http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2007/03/2008525184821608334.html

Oh and the protestants and the catholics are still fighting over in NI(as in july 2010)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jul/14/police-belfast-violence-ardoynePolice Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) assistant chief constable Alistair Finlay earlier singled out Robinson and McGuinness for criticism after the sustained violence surrounding July 12 Orange Order marches left 82 officers injured.




That's the broken link. I started a new thread with the link from the other thread because you really seemed interested in it.




Page: <<   < prev  8 9 [10] 11 12   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875