RE: This is what made me pro-mosque

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Politesub53 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 4:23:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Horse hockey, There are plenty of examples. And I find it interesting that you are trying to claim that the conversion of a Christian church to a Moslem mosque doesn't count. In what universe doesn't that count? How about Dome of the Rock? The entire concept is well known and documented in history. Maybe there aren't many internet cites because it's the kind of thing that hasn't (until now) been something that is regularly discussed in non-professional circles. And you are attempting to short circuit anyone who posts or writes about it in anything other than a professional historical site, by attempting to classify anyone who researches into books, and posts them on a non-pro site. Weak. Weak as hell. Firm LOL Your a joke as per usual. You make a claim then admit you cant back it up in anyway shape or form. Archer claimed Hagia Sophia was a built as a victory mosque, it wasnt. The Muslims used it for prayer, just as the Christians did at Cordoba, you skipped that bit. As for the Dome Of The Rock, I explained that in my post, the site hadnt had a building on it for 700 years. You do know that Islam venerates the Jewish Prophets dont you which is why the Dome was built. ?

tazzygirl -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 4:23:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl In the minds of those who lost someone, it could make all the difference. A random act, such as Oklahoma, with only a few people, can be... viewed as an isolated attack. This was planned, methodically, for years, before being implemented, with disasterous results. No, not every Muslim is a terrorist. But we do give victims of an attack time to heal. The healing of those involved in this attack is still an ongoing process. This wasnt a random act, but a methodically planned one. Some of the missing have never been found. Im not sure there will ever be enough healing to repair the damage from that day. But, it does strike me as slightly insensitive to demand that people just "get over it". Do you think McVeigh was coming back from the grocery store and thought "Oh! While I'm here I should blow that up!" Considering most people don't just have an exploding van on hand, I would say this took at least some degree of planning. and your remark about "just get over it" is just what I mean. The point is that they are misplacing the blame. "just get over it" only makes sense if you believe that Islam was the culprit. An evil organization was the culprit. If it was a monument to Al-Qaeda I would be a little more sympathetic. I need to go buy pickled eggs! It's hard to get away from you people! Even the most naive of people can see the difference between three people planning the bombing of one building wouldnt not take even one fifth the planning as 4 targets planned overseas. No one is saying Muslims cannot pray in this country. They are saying just not at that site. Again, it matters little to me where. But obviously this is a huge issue for those who lost loved ones there. Again, why are you ignoring them?

FirmhandKY -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 4:28:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray Well it shouldn't. It should sound like a violent political stunt. 9/11 made us go over there and blow them up lots. Besides... Sheik Mohammed is not the one building the mosque! It's a peaceful guy, appointed by a republican! No, Sheik Mohammand just planned the attacks due to his Islamic beliefs, in which there is no distinction between the government and the religion. Perhaps not all Muslims will see it as a victory mosque, but the ones who agree with the Sheik's beliefs certainly will. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 4:30:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 LOL Your a joke as per usual. You make a claim then admit you cant back it up in anyway shape or form. Archer claimed Hagia Sophia was a built as a victory mosque, it wasnt. The Muslims used it for prayer, just as the Christians did at Cordoba, you skipped that bit. As for the Dome Of The Rock, I explained that in my post, the site hadnt had a building on it for 700 years. You do know that Islam venerates the Jewish Prophets dont you which is why the Dome was built. ? Read my second post on the subject. Go fish. It is apparent that your mind is set in concrete, and that you will ignore any information which contradicts your ideological beliefs. Firm

luckydawg -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 4:30:43 PM)
quote: Um.. no. First of all, it's two blocks away. Second, think about what you know of recruitment for a country's military. Isn't it usually along the lines "Serve your country" or "Help fight off this threat to our way of life." In this country, they say "Join the Army because in return we'll give you benefits and help you learn a skill for when you get out." But not once have I ever heard "join the military because the other side is pussies!" Its wierd some people really think the buildings fell into them self and nothing else was damaged that day. All concepts of basic thinking seem to be gone. Look at a video of the hits and collapse. All that stuff in the explosion and fire ball came down somewhere. Buildings for blocks all around were damaged. It is 2 blocks from the point of impact, but was part of the damage field. I simply disagree with your opinion of Military Recruiting. First to assume it is the same as Jihad Recruiting is kind of silly. But I guess you are unaware that our military recruitment effort involves film, music, radio, and video games, (and a lot of others) pushing subtexts of join up and kick some ass. Be the baddest fucker you know. commercials where they marine is sword fighting dragons, and ets his magic sword adn uniform. Or special ops guys hitting the beach and vanishing. Cheerleader videos and a sense we got Great Satan on the run will pick up more recruits. IMo. You can disagree. Though you are factually incorrect on the content of all military recruiting in the USA.

Politesub53 -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 4:59:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Read my second post on the subject. Go fish. It is apparent that your mind is set in concrete, and that you will ignore any information which contradicts your ideological beliefs. Firm The point still remains few Churches, if any, were destroyed to make way for Mosques. Hagia Sophia for intsance had all images of the human form removed, the architecture was otherwise untouched to a large degree. Cordoba was built over a period of 200 years, it was also built by someone not even in Spain at the time of the Islamic conquest, yet that is on your list. If anyones mind is set in concrete, it is those who claim the Mosques were all built as victory Mosques. Thats far from the actuality, for the most part. The same also happened in the reverse, yet I doubt you will call the Cordoba Cathederal a victory Cathederal.

luckydawg -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:09:22 PM)
"If anyones mind is set in concrete, it is those who claim the Mosques were all built as victory Mosques." Who's actually making that claim. This statement doesn't really mean anything. What are "the Mosqes"? The 2137 is mosques on the list you were given? Or some other set of Mosques? No one is saying all are Victory Mosques.

thishereboi -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:16:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: footsniffa Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I never thought I'd see teabaggers on CM. "flying carpets"? "convert to christianity"? "stay out of our country"? Yeah, go ahead and say you're not bigoted after making statements like that. And stop being played like a bunch of fucking rubes. This center has been planned for a long fucking time. Just last year many of the blowhards who are now stirring up the hate of the pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs were praising the Imam and his plans for the center (Ingraham, Beck). This has been coming down the pipe for years, and muslims have been praying in the building since it was purchased. The hallowed ground that was the Burlington Coat Factory that went out of business is thankfully being developed as it had been on the market since about that day we'll never forget. The only reason this is suddenly an issue is some of the hucksters found another way to squeeze some more money out of the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. Others think this is a great issue for November too but this is mainly the rubes getting suckered yet again. Gee. Such tolerance and love ... You said .... Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I read: ... a bunch of fucking rubes ... ... pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs ... ... the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. ... the rubes getting suckered ... Yeah, I see a lot of ignorance and bigotry on this thread, too. Firm ah the sweet smell of hypocrisy [8D]

StrangerThan -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:24:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl In the minds of those who lost someone, it could make all the difference. A random act, such as Oklahoma, with only a few people, can be... viewed as an isolated attack. This was planned, methodically, for years, before being implemented, with disasterous results. No, not every Muslim is a terrorist. But we do give victims of an attack time to heal. The healing of those involved in this attack is still an ongoing process. This wasnt a random act, but a methodically planned one. Some of the missing have never been found. Im not sure there will ever be enough healing to repair the damage from that day. But, it does strike me as slightly insensitive to demand that people just "get over it". Do you think McVeigh was coming back from the grocery store and thought "Oh! While I'm here I should blow that up!" Considering most people don't just have an exploding van on hand, I would say this took at least some degree of planning. and your remark about "just get over it" is just what I mean. The point is that they are misplacing the blame. "just get over it" only makes sense if you believe that Islam was the culprit. An evil organization was the culprit. If it was a monument to Al-Qaeda I would be a little more sympathetic. I need to go buy pickled eggs! It's hard to get away from you people! Even the most naive of people can see the difference between three people planning the bombing of one building wouldnt not take even one fifth the planning as 4 targets planned overseas. No one is saying Muslims cannot pray in this country. They are saying just not at that site. Again, it matters little to me where. But obviously this is a huge issue for those who lost loved ones there. Again, why are you ignoring them? Because it doesn't fit in the nice, neat, racist mentality that allows those supporting the thing to immediately sideline and dismiss anyone who has a problem with a shrine dedicated to the religion responsible. They ignore the muslims who speak out against this building in this spot, the people who lost family and speak out against this building in this spot, the 71% of New Yorkers who are against this building in this spot. it is that fucking simple. It is the height of hypocrisy among leftists to appear blind to the insensitivity because they are the one group who will scream it to the mountain tops over just about any fucking issue. There's a difference here though. There's one reason and one reason only this debate rages. It has nothing to do with islam, nothing to do with a love or tolerance of mulsims, nothing to do with bigotry. And that reason is Obama. When the friggin thing became a talking point, Obama was attacked by right-wing pundits for his comments. Folk on the left have been acting like slobbering damned pigs ever since, tripping over themselves and foaming at the mouth to frame anyone who feels this mosque is not appropriate at that spot as racists, promoters of hatred, phobics, dumb asses and fringe elements. The fringe is easy to see in this debate. Polls show that an overwhelming majority of Americans feel this structure does not belong at or near ground zero. This includes 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals, 72% of whites and 58% of non-whites. In other words, opposition crosses political lines, social lines, racial lines - pick a fucking line. It crosses it, except maybe fringe. You know the opposing fringe to that who never questioned GWB's antics. This fringe is righteously indignant because of politics. The analogy of the OP was wrong. It uses the same tactic in the Islamaphobia thread uses by establishing any other feeling as one rooted in bigotry or racism. And it's done cause those are the trump cards. And ya gotta wonder, given the analogy used by the OP if the 58 percent in the paragraph above are somehow bigoted too. I mean, really, we're not just talking pasty white folk here. It is an absolute crock of shit. Take muslim out of it, islam out of it, re-write it with any group you want, sanitize it of any known collaboration of people and it boils down to a monument to the group that caused so much death and destruction. If you can't see the insensitivity in it, you're either blind or so intent upon protecting your party you don't realize that hypocrite just got a new face in the dictionary. It's the one you see in the mirror.

FirmhandKY -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:26:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 The point still remains few Churches, if any, were destroyed to make way for Mosques. Hagia Sophia for intsance had all images of the human form removed, the architecture was otherwise untouched to a large degree. Cordoba was built over a period of 200 years, it was also built by someone not even in Spain at the time of the Islamic conquest, yet that is on your list. If anyones mind is set in concrete, it is those who claim the Mosques were all built as victory Mosques. Thats far from the actuality, for the most part. The same also happened in the reverse, yet I doubt you will call the Cordoba Cathederal a victory Cathederal. As lucky and others have pointed out ... no one is saying all mosques are "victory mosque". Why do you continue to insist that is the case? As well, no one has made any claim that the reverse can't or hasn't happened. In fact these branches of discussion are immaterial to the "analogy" that was my first post in this thread. Does this clarify things for you? Firm

willbeurdaddy -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:28:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY As lucky and others have pointed out ... no one is saying all mosques are "victory mosque". Why do you continue to insist that is the case? Firm Because if he didnt create strawmen to burn he'd have nothing to say about much of anything.

tazzygirl -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:29:32 PM)
Sadly, i see hypocrits all over the place in regards to this issue. Wars have been fought over less. Body parts were found blocks away from ground zero. More body parts have been found over the years since, and some victims still have not been accounted for. Yet they are racist, incensitive and bigots.

FirmhandKY -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:30:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan Because it doesn't fit in the nice, neat, racist mentality that allows those supporting the thing to immediately sideline and dismiss anyone who has a problem with a shrine dedicated to the religion responsible. They ignore the muslims who speak out against this building in this spot, the people who lost family and speak out against this building in this spot, the 71% of New Yorkers who are against this building in this spot. it is that fucking simple. It is the height of hypocrisy among leftists to appear blind to the insensitivity because they are the one group who will scream it to the mountain tops over just about any fucking issue. There's a difference here though. There's one reason and one reason only this debate rages. It has nothing to do with islam, nothing to do with a love or tolerance of mulsims, nothing to do with bigotry. And that reason is Obama. When the friggin thing became a talking point, Obama was attacked by right-wing pundits for his comments. Folk on the left have been acting like slobbering damned pigs ever since, tripping over themselves and foaming at the mouth to frame anyone who feels this mosque is not appropriate at that spot as racists, promoters of hatred, phobics, dumb asses and fringe elements. The fringe is easy to see in this debate. Polls show that an overwhelming majority of Americans feel this structure does not belong at or near ground zero. This includes 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals, 72% of whites and 58% of non-whites. In other words, opposition crosses political lines, social lines, racial lines - pick a fucking line. It crosses it, except maybe fringe. You know the opposing fringe to that who never questioned GWB's antics. This fringe is righteously indignant because of politics. The analogy of the OP was wrong. It uses the same tactic in the Islamaphobia thread uses by establishing any other feeling as one rooted in bigotry or racism. And it's done cause those are the trump cards. And ya gotta wonder, given the analogy used by the OP if the 58 percent in the paragraph above are somehow bigoted too. I mean, really, we're not just talking pasty white folk here. It is an absolute crock of shit. Take muslim out of it, islam out of it, re-write it with any group you want, sanitize it of any known collaboration of people and it boils down to a monument to the group that caused so much death and destruction. If you can't see the insensitivity in it, you're either blind or so intent upon protecting your party you don't realize that hypocrite just got a new face in the dictionary. It's the one you see in the mirror. Excellent, on point and accurate. Kudos. Firm

footsniffa -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:36:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: footsniffa Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I never thought I'd see teabaggers on CM. "flying carpets"? "convert to christianity"? "stay out of our country"? Yeah, go ahead and say you're not bigoted after making statements like that. And stop being played like a bunch of fucking rubes. This center has been planned for a long fucking time. Just last year many of the blowhards who are now stirring up the hate of the pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs were praising the Imam and his plans for the center (Ingraham, Beck). This has been coming down the pipe for years, and muslims have been praying in the building since it was purchased. The hallowed ground that was the Burlington Coat Factory that went out of business is thankfully being developed as it had been on the market since about that day we'll never forget. The only reason this is suddenly an issue is some of the hucksters found another way to squeeze some more money out of the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. Others think this is a great issue for November too but this is mainly the rubes getting suckered yet again. Gee. Such tolerance and love ... You said .... Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I read: ... a bunch of fucking rubes ... ... pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs ... ... the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. ... the rubes getting suckered ... Yeah, I see a lot of ignorance and bigotry on this thread, too. Firm ah the sweet smell of hypocrisy [8D] Quickest ignore ever

luckydawg -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:37:04 PM)
Leftwingers are followers even in debate. How freaking funny.

FirmhandKY -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:44:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: footsniffa Quickest ignore ever You are apparently new here. Just a bit of advice ... think before posting. You got "caught" in this thread, and I called you on it. A couple of other posters commented on it. If you wish to be regarded as anything other than a troll ... when you take a hit like that, the best thing to do is either apologize (the most adult thing), or ignore it (which works, sometimes, in the short run). Otherwise, you are going to give some of us a lot of ammo to enjoy ourselves at your expense, and I suspect your sojourn here will be short, and unhappy. Firm edited to add: PS. Learn how to crop your quotes, as well, or you'll be mod-spanked pretty soon, too.

thishereboi -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:46:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: footsniffa Quickest ignore ever Yawn

footsniffa -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:51:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: footsniffa Quickest ignore ever Yawn Hey now, I'm the only one allowed to mock here.

FirmhandKY -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 5:54:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: footsniffa Hey now, I'm the only one allowed to mock here. Do you have anything further to say that is on-topic? Firm

VioletGray -> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque (9/13/2010 7:37:56 PM)
I saw other posts I was going to reply to first, but this long, angry, ranty one looks like the most fun! ::cracks knuckles:: let's get started! [sm=lol.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan Because it doesn't fit in the nice, neat, racist mentality that allows those supporting the thing to immediately sideline and dismiss anyone who has a problem with a shrine dedicated to the religion responsible. They ignore the muslims who speak out against this building in this spot, the people who lost family and speak out against this building in this spot, the 71% of New Yorkers who are against this building in this spot. it is that fucking simple. So wait, are the Muslims who don't think it should be built there more significant than the Muslims who do? How about this, the truth is the truth, and it doesn't care what religion you are. Because they are anti-mosque muslims I should agree with them? quote: It is the height of hypocrisy among leftists to appear blind to the insensitivity because they are the one group who will scream it to the mountain tops over just about any fucking issue. There's a difference here though. There's one reason and one reason only this debate rages. It has nothing to do with islam, nothing to do with a love or tolerance of mulsims, nothing to do with bigotry. And that reason is Obama. When the friggin thing became a talking point, Obama was attacked by right-wing pundits for his comments. Folk on the left have been acting like slobbering damned pigs ever since, tripping over themselves and foaming at the mouth to frame anyone who feels this mosque is not appropriate at that spot as racists, promoters of hatred, phobics, dumb asses and fringe elements. wth? That came out of left field. I think, at least in this discussion, that you are the first to mention Obama at all. MY point, at least, is that the trauma and high emotions surrounding 9/11 are causing some in the country to have a moment of weakness in the American values department. quote: The fringe is easy to see in this debate. Polls show that an overwhelming majority of Americans feel this structure does not belong at or near ground zero. This includes 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals, 72% of whites and 58% of non-whites. In other words, opposition crosses political lines, social lines, racial lines - pick a fucking line. It crosses it, except maybe fringe. You know the opposing fringe to that who never questioned GWB's antics. This fringe is righteously indignant because of politics. So by your own stats at least, roughly half of all democrats and liberals, almost a third of all whites and a bit less than half of all non-whites are for the mosque, then? Does that sound like the fringe to you? I don't know how reliable those numbers are anyway, considering that by most accounts I've read the pro-mosque protesters outnumbered the anti-mosque protesters at the rallies this past 9/11. quote: The analogy of the OP was wrong. It uses the same tactic in the Islamaphobia thread uses by establishing any other feeling as one rooted in bigotry or racism. And it's done cause those are the trump cards. And ya gotta wonder, given the analogy used by the OP if the 58 percent in the paragraph above are somehow bigoted too. I mean, really, we're not just talking pasty white folk here. the point of the original post was that different forms of bigotry can often have the same root. It just so happens in this case to be a past encounter. Besides, bigotry is bigotry, no matter what color the bigot is. I'm not sure why you think who voices an opinion pro or con should make any difference to my opinion. quote: It is an absolute crock of shit. Take muslim out of it, islam out of it, re-write it with any group you want, sanitize it of any known collaboration of people and it boils down to a monument to the group that caused so much death and destruction. If you can't see the insensitivity in it, you're either blind or so intent upon protecting your party you don't realize that hypocrite just got a new face in the dictionary. I think that the paragraph above proves my point for me. Your statement is flat-out wrong, because if that were true then it would be a monument to Al-Qaeda. THEY are the "group" that caused so much death and destruction. Islam pre-dates Al-Qaeda by what, at least 1000 years? Here's a truth that you're ignoring: People interpret their religions in ways that suit them. Most reasonable, well-adjusted people interpret their religion in ways that allow them to mind their own business, and go about their lives as normal. Others, the minority usually, interpret it in ways to give them an outlet to greed and hatred, I shouldn't even have to mention that point, considering how the Bible was used to both promote and condemn slavery in our own country. quote: It's the one you see in the mirror. Hey now! That's not nice! [:D]

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