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A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 6:59:12 AM

maybemaybenot

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Those of us who oppose the Park51 project have been hailed here on CM as Islamaphobes, bigots, intolerant and the list goes on.

As I said in another thread, there are many Muslims who are not in favor of the Park51 project. The article I link below explains quite eloquently the other side of the arguement from a Muslim POV.

My question is; What makes this Muslims POV any less valid than Imam Rauf's or other Muslims, on that side of the arguement's, POV ?

What makes his POV less valid than your own POV ?

Is this Muslim, and others like him, an Islamaphobe, a racists, a bigot ?

Because just as their is a divide here on the rightness or wrongness of the Park51 project, there is a divide among Muslims themselves.

"We Muslims should first separate mosque and state before lecturing Americans about church and state." He continues, "American freedom of religion is a right, but … it is not right to make one's religion a global political statement with a towering Islamic edifice that casts a shadow over the memorials of Ground Zero. … Islamists in 'moderate' disguise are still Islamists. In their own more subtle ways, the WTC mosque organizers end up serving the same aims (as) separatist and supremacist wings of political Islam."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/11/earlyshow/saturday/main6855993.shtml

mbmbn

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 7:19:24 AM

StrangerThan

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Someone, I'm sure will find a way to explain that he hates his own religion, hates other muslims, and does so because he's a bigot.

The torturous route some are willing to go to play those cards is absolutely mind-boggling.

Edited to add, I get the reason they do however. Once mission accomplished can be proclaimed, they can deride and dismiss any future discussion on the topic.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 9/12/2010 7:21:04 AM >

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 7:33:57 AM

JstAnotherSub

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I agree 100%. I could have saved some typing on the other thread had I read this first.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 9:58:29 AM

hertz

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It is perfectly reasonable for a Muslim to share your point of view - that building an Islamic Cultural centre two blocks away from Ground Zero is inappropriate. It is possible that in exactly the same way as you are wrong, he too, is wrong.

In your article, the Muslim scholar Dr. Zuhdi Jasser says 'the Islamic Center as conceived is more about making a political statement that will seriously divide communities than about bringing them together'. It's an opinion looking for some evidence - I'm not sure whether the article puts that evidence forward. I couldn't see it. Maybe you can explain how the building of a centre dedicated to interfaith dialogue and peace is a political act?

The opposing view is that the Islamic Centre is about peace and reconciliation - this is the expressed purpose of it as put forward by the people who propose to actually build it. I can't see any reason to doubt that claim. Maybe you can explain why the builders of the centre are incorrect when they claim it is about peace and interfaith dialogue?

For what it's worth, I don't think the belief that the centre should not be built is, of itself, Islamophobic or racist, nor is it necessarily a sign of intolerance and/or bigotry. The problem is that many of those who oppose the building support their argument with some pretty crass and ignorant statements about Islam and the meaning of the centre. One only has to look at what the Reverend Jones has to say about Islam to see that.

As this thing goes on, I have to admit to struggling with the whole idea myself. It's not wrong to build it, in my view, but I am beginning to think that proceeding might not further the cause of 'peace and interfaith dialogue', and it might be better not to build it, even if that means the bigots triumph. That isn't the fault of the proposed centre, nor is it the fault of the Muslims who want to build it. It's the fault of the bigots and intolerant dirt-bags who have poisoned the whole venture with their stupidity. In fact, I might even go further and suggest that Jasser is correct when he describes building the centre as a 'political act', because now it clearly is a political act, whatever the original intention was. And again, I lay the blame for this at the feet of the bigots, like the Reverend Jones, who have turned this into an argument about politics.

Bottom line? In order to be accused of Islamophobia or bigotry, I think a person needs to do more than simply be against the Islamic Centre. I'd be interested in looking at their motivation as well. I have no doubt that the Reverend Jones is a bigot. I think Dr. Zuhdi Jasser is probably not.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 3:26:27 PM

housesub4you

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There are Mosques closer to ground zero then this one. There are also strip clubs within sight of ground zero, but no one bitches about them.

Strange how this was approved over 1.5 years ago, and until election time no politicians really seemed to care about. Now it is nothing more then political bias.

Strange, how those claiming to support the Constitution are the very people willing to ignore it because of how they "feel", not by if it is allowed under our laws or not. Gee i wonder what part of the Constitution they will want to ignore next because they don't want to "feel" a certain way. Hell the last president had no problem ignoring the Constitution, no reason anybody else has to honor it

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 3:36:16 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Those of us who oppose the Park51 project have been hailed here on CM as Islamaphobes, bigots, intolerant and the list goes on.

Not true.

There are many here,richsanityluckydogtruckenslavewilber who were bigoted,intolerant Islamaphobes, long before Park 51 became the made-up conflict du jour.

As far as I can see,folks who argued the issue in good faith were taken seriously and engaged with a discussion.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/12/2010 3:39:49 PM >

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 3:44:51 PM

luckydawg

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Yep gonna see a lot of nonsense between now and the election.

heck o59 is pretending I oppose the Mosque.

But made up shit is the basis for most of his arguments

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 4:12:27 PM

thornhappy

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I'm getting to be a broken record about this, and so are a few other people, but why is it appropriate for the Pentagon to host Muslim worship within its doors, and not appropriate for an existing community to establish a community center 2 blocks from the WTC?

Once upon a time Bush 43 said that we shouldn't diss all Muslims for the acts of terrorists. Now all Muslims are conflated with terrorists. There are one billion Muslims on earth. What percentage do you think are terrorists?

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 4:24:12 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I'm getting to be a broken record about this, and so are a few other people, but why is it appropriate for the Pentagon to host Muslim worship within its doors, and not appropriate for an existing community to establish a community center 2 blocks from the WTC?

Because the Pentagon wasn't attacked by...oh wait.

I wonder if they still serve Halal meals on airplanes.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 4:41:38 PM

luckydawg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I'm getting to be a broken record about this, and so are a few other people, but why is it appropriate for the Pentagon to host Muslim worship within its doors, and not appropriate for an existing community to establish a community center 2 blocks from the WTC?

Once upon a time Bush 43 said that we shouldn't diss all Muslims for the acts of terrorists. Now all Muslims are conflated with terrorists. There are one billion Muslims on earth. What percentage do you think are terrorists?

I don't know the answers or why you are asking me these things? <insert cheap joke about Obama being a muslim so of course there is a mosque in the Pentagon. Minarets too, and they play the loud call to prayer 5 times a day over the PA system>

Outside of a few dipshits who says all muslims are terrorists? I don't.

.00017% of them are terrorists. +- .oooo4% margin of error.

You do sound like a broken record, I must agree.

The facts are in a series of Left wing groups is hyping this "Islamophobia" thing before the upcoming election, and lotsof the partisans are jumping right in.

Me and Obama can see how some folks would not be happy about it.

Complain to Obama if you like.

So Me and Obama are Islamophobes.

Why do you support Islamophobes Thorn?

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 4:46:12 PM

luckydawg

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And how far from the impact is the worship area in the Pentagon?

Is it right down the Hall? The Pentagon is much larger than a few blocks. I think the area is resricted to only people with security clearances.

Perhaps if it was possible to garuntee that 911 sympathesiers would not be able to come gloat/ Worship at park51 people might mind it less. Or look over the ruins while listening to the call to Prayer on Friday afternoon.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 4:48:35 PM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy
There are one billion Muslims on earth. What percentage do you think are terrorists?

To play Devil's Advocate...apparently enough of a percentage for people to freak out that burning Qu'rans might piss 'em off.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 4:55:43 PM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Those of us who oppose the Park51 project have been hailed here on CM as Islamaphobes, bigots, intolerant and the list goes on.

Not true.

There are many here,richsanityluckydogtruckenslavewilber who were bigoted,intolerant Islamaphobes, long before Park 51 became the made-up conflict du jour.

As far as I can see,folks who argued the issue in good faith were taken seriously and engaged with a discussion.

Actually, being prejudiced if you opposed the building of Park51 near Ground Zero was the exact premise of one thread. And in all the other theads many a slur was directed to anyone who opposed it with a big ol brush by a good number of posters. Agreed, there were also posters who engaged in a conversation.

mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 5:01:24 PM

maybemaybenot

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No one seems to want to answer the question: What makes this Muslims POV any less valid than Imam Rauf's POV. Or less valid than your own POV. Interesting.

But go ahead, carry on the same old rhetoric that has been beaten to death in other threads. It speaks volumes.

ETA: spelling

mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 9/12/2010 5:02:16 PM >

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 5:02:05 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

To play Devil's Advocate...apparently enough of a percentage for people to freak out that burning Qu'rans might piss 'em off.

There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. A small percentage doesn't mean a small amount.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 5:05:15 PM

Raiikun

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I said nothing to suggest that it did. ;)

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 5:12:18 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

No one seems to want to answer the question: What makes this Muslims POV any less valid than Imam Rauf's POV. Or less valid than your own POV. Interesting.

But go ahead, carry on the same old rhetoric that has been beaten to death in other threads. It speaks volumes.

ETA: spelling

mbmbn

For the record, your link was just one Muslims view.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 5:16:03 PM

luckydawg

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So is Iman Rauf's.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 5:21:05 PM

maybemaybenot

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politesub:

There are plenty of others. I choose this one because I thought he presented his side eloquently, as I said. The current Miss USA, a Muslim, also presnted a good case, as did the Canadian Imam.

mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 5:27:15 PM

Jeffff

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That's the nature of something like this. You can always find someone with a reasonable view point. the trouble is you usually have to dig for it.

Reason doesn't bring ratings or sell papers.

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